Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[BornAgain]

Drew's argument was that Romans 2:6-7 was proof that eternal life is works based. He demanded to know what anyone thought Paul was talking about in those verses. Removed from context those verses can be interpreted as meaning that eternal life is dependent upon works, but in context to the previous chapter and the preceding verses, he is warning the non believers that they will be judged for their ways.

God will render to every man, whether Jew or Gentile, according to the works he did while in the body. He will execute judgment with an impartial hand. [This strips from the Jew all hope of partiality. In the great day of final accounts God will not know him as a Jew. His descent from Abraham will not be known, neither will his circumcision. He will only be a human being, and as such will stand before God. Thus will the Jew stand on a level with all other men.]


7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:—Paul now divides mankind into two great classes—those who obey God and those who obey unrighteousness. To the first class God will render eternal life; to the second, wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish.] Those who seek for glory and honor and incorruption, through faith in doing the will of God, shall receive eternal life. "Glory" denotes the highest happiness and distinction which the saved will attain; "honor," the esteem in which they shall be held; and "incorruption" is the freedom from suffering and decay and absolute exemption from sin and impurity. God only has incorruption and immortality. Man is eternal in existence, but will be given immortality as the reward of his seeking it.

 

[Free]

Just a reminder to not attack the person and address the points being made.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Ernest, and wherever would you get that idea?

In the scripture you offer: Luke 13:3,5 the three following meanings are suggested of the word "Perish", and that's exactly what happened to Moses.

1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

It's certain that Moses was put to death for unbelief, and the scripture you chose suggests the reason he perished; he didn't repent huh?

Luke 13:3 3 . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Deuteronomy 32:48-52
48) And the LORD spake unto Moses . . .
49) Get thee up unto mount Nebo . . .
50) And die in the mount whither thou goest up,
51) Because ye trespassed against me . . .

Again, do you think Moses is in heaven? I certainly do.

Mark 9:2-10
We KNOW Moses was saved. Wasn't he with Jesus at the Transfiguration?
Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Peter, James, John
Moses representing the Law and Elijah for the Prophets
The authority of Jesus was established over the Law and the Prophets

 

[Deborah13]

Drew

You are still removing context. Paul has set up a "this or that" comparison. You can't grab a verse and build assumptions from it. He was comparing the actions and the consequences of believers and idolators. In verse 5 Paul tells the stubborn and unrepentant the error of their ways, and in verse 6 he lets them know that "God's gonna gitcha" as a warning.

Yes, he does write "persistence in doing good", but as a juxtaposition to the damning lifestyle laid out in chapter 1.

Oh Yike, your avatar is so creepy. Talented art but creepy.

 

[BornAgain]

Oh Yike, your avatar is so creepy. Talented art but creepy.

I was thinking the same thing!

 

[Butch5]

Drew's argument was that Romans 2:6-7 was proof that eternal life is works based. He demanded to know what anyone thought Paul was talking about in those verses. Removed from context those verses can be interpreted as meaning that eternal life is dependent upon works, but in context to the previous chapter and the preceding verses, he is warning the non believers that they will be judged for their ways.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

OK, I understand that. You said he was warning non believers that they will be judged for their ways. Aren't you here like Paul saying they will be judged according to their deeds? I don't think this argument will work. Let's take it to a logical conclusion, if Paul's words apply to the unbeliever, we would assume then that the unbeliever who does good deeds will receive eternal life. Yet we know that is not the case.

You posted Ephesians 2:8-9, can I assume this was because it says not of works? I would suggest that this teaching of Martin Luther is incorrect. Martin Luther championed the "faith alone" teaching. The "No works" doctrine is a misunderstanding Luther had. In his attempt to counter errors in the Catholic Church Luther went to the other extreme, totally excluding works. I would submit to you that when Paul says not of works he is referring to the Mosaic Law. Are you familiar with the Judaizers? They were Jews who went behind Paul telling his Gentile converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.

KJV Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. (Act 15:1-2 KJV)

This was a major issue in Paul's ministry and the background to his teaching on faith vs. works. Also consider his words to the Galatians.

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great}
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:5 KJV)
(Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

You can see here that the Galatians were being mislead to believe that there was a necessity for them to keep the Law. This issue was such an ordeal that Paul went up to Jerusalem by revelation of the Spirit to settle it. It is this issue that Paul is addressing in Epehsians 2:8-9. consider the rest of that passage.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {thereby: or, in himself}
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.(Eph 2:8-1 KJV)

Paul says that the Gentiles were outside of the covenants of promise, without Christ and God, and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel. However, they were brought near b y Christ abolishing the commandments contained in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. He's telling them that they are not saved by works (Mosaic Law) because Christ has abolished the Law and brought the Gentiles into the covenants. I would submit that you'll usually find similar language when you see Paul speaking of works.

 

[rrowell]

OK, I understand that. You said he was warning non believers that they will be judged for their ways. Aren't you here like Paul saying they will be judged according to their deeds? I don't think this argument will work. Let's take it to a logical conclusion, if Paul's words apply to the unbeliever, we would assume then that the unbeliever who does good deeds will receive eternal life. Yet we know that is not the case.

You posted Ephesians 2:8-9, can I assume this was because it says not of works? I would suggest that this teaching of Martin Luther is incorrect. Martin Luther championed the "faith alone" teaching. The "No works" doctrine is a misunderstanding Luther had. In his attempt to counter errors in the Catholic Church Luther went to the other extreme, totally excluding works. I would submit to you that when Paul says not of works he is referring to the Mosaic Law. Are you familiar with the Judaizers? They were Jews who went behind Paul telling his Gentile converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.

KJV Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.(Act 15:1-2 KJV)

This was a major issue in Paul's ministry and the background to his teaching on faith vs. works. Also consider his words to the Galatians.

KJV Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. {so many: or, so great}
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Gal 3:5 KJV)
(Gal 3:1-5 KJV)

You can see here that the Galatians were being mislead to believe that there was a necessity for them to keep the Law. This issue was such an ordeal that Paul went up to Jerusalem by revelation of the Spirit to settle it. It is this issue that Paul is addressing in Epehsians 2:8-9. consider the rest of that passage.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared}
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {thereby: or, in himself}
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.(Eph 2:8-1 KJV)

Paul says that the Gentiles were outside of the covenants of promise, without Christ and God, and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel. However, they were brought near b y Christ abolishing the commandments contained in ordinances. That's the Mosaic Law. He's telling them that they are not saved by works (Mosaic Law) because Christ has abolished the Law and brought the Gentiles into the covenants. I would submit that you'll usually find similar language when you see Paul speaking of works.

 

[Cobblers Apprentice]

If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love.

(Julian of Norwich)

That's the way of it.

Forgive me for quoting my own post. However, the point being made is that our "salvation" does as I see it depend upon the constancy of the Divine and not on that of ourselves. If we are "chosen before the foundation of the word" then nothing we can do can make God love us more, nothing we can do can make god love us less.

For our "salvation" - or not - to change according to our latest "work", then we have a salvation of works, pure and simple.

True "works" spring from gratitude/faith.

The Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, wrote.....Our real journey in life is interior: it is a matter of growth, deepening, and of an ever greater surrender to the creative action of love and grace in our hearts.

(from "The Road to Joy", sub-titled "Letters to New and Old Friends")

There will always be times of inconstancy - of falling - on our side, but the path remains solid underfoot, because the love of the Divine is constant.

So I learn to trust God, not myself.

 

[Davies]

Please stop evading.

Please answer the question.

I asked you this:

Let me make it easy for you. Please complete this sentence:

"In Romans 2:6-7, Paul is saying........."

I hate to "force" this on you, but you really have not answered the question. Yes, the thief only lived a few minutes after believing and did not have the chance to do many good works.

But that does not make Romans 2:6-7 disappear!

So, please, just answer the question.

Hi Drew,

I surely identify with your frustration, so, I would ask for your patience with the understanding and knowledge that I just don't agree with a works-righteous Gospel.

"In Romans 2:6-7, Paul is saying," those who are justified by faith ("those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality") will receive eternal life. In Romans 2:8-9, but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish."

These verses isolated can lead to a misunderstanding because there is no elaboration. No, the verse does not include the word 'faith', but taking into account the other inspired Scriptures, we have a good understanding of what Paul is saying.

Another example of this passage can be found in John 3:36. Who is given eternal life?

John 3:36

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


In John 3:36, the word work is not included, but based on other inspired Scripture, we understand that works are the natural product of faith. Works that are part of the sanctification process, not the justification process. I must also add it takes faith to live an evil life. The difference is what your faith is in. Is it in you? or is it in Jesus? Many atheist are very moral people who, if we compare righteous deeds with many Christians, would be found a better people. So, sighting just a couple of verses is to take it out of context where other verses help us to have understanding.



2 Corinthians 5:13-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.


If you think I'm wrong, crazy, or beside myself, then "it is to God." Because Jesus died for both me and you, let us live by our faith for Him.


If I am wrong Drew, and I live my life for Jesus Christ believing that I'm justified by His righteousness and not my own, what does that matter to you? In your eyes, I'll be justified by my righteousness. But if your wrong, and you live your life believing that you'll be justified by your righteousness and not Jesus', then I would have no assurance of your salvation. I pray that we will all be justified and live sanctified lives.

Here is the example you and I should follow:

1 Timothy 1:15-16

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. (emphasis added)


Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners at the end of his ministry, clearly the opposite claim of a person who says he's justified by his deeds.




- Davies

 

[Bfnaught]

Oh Yike, your avatar is so creepy. Talented art but creepy.

It's one piece of a larger collection. It is outdoors, along the side of a building, in an out of the way office complex. I don't know who made it, but my son and I think it's cool.

 

[John 8:32]

In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



Though the Lord was soon to leave them, they were not to be homeless forever; in the Father's house "are many mansions," literally, abiding-places, the home of the faithful for ever. This, was one of the reasons he must leave them, to prepare a place for them in the Father's house and return to heaven. Strange, in the light of the obvious import of this passage that the view occasionally emerges that the "Father's house" is the church, a view for which there is not the slightest support in the passage and is obviously erroneous for the following reasons:


(1) The Father's house then existed; Jesus speaks of it in the present tense; the church had not been established when these words were uttered.


(2) Jesus left the earth to go to the Father's house; one does not have to leave the earth to become a member of the church today since the church is here—not in heaven—and thus available to all who obey the gospel.


(3) The place the Lord went to prepare is where he went when he left the earth; he left the earth to go to his Father's house; but he went to heaven; therefore, his Father's house is in heaven. The church is on earth; the Father's house is in heaven; therefore, the Father's house is not the church.


We learn:


(1) heaven is now in a state of preparation; when the preparatory work is finished, Jesus will return for his own.


(2) Among the blessed ends of this plan is that faithful disciples will be privileged to be with the Lord, in the Father's house, in perfect fellowship and unbroken communion throughout all ages.

Where will His house be?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ went to Heaven. He is preparing rewards, He returns, brings the rewards with Him and distributes them to His faithful. Now if we read...

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Christ's teaching here begins to make more sense, His Kingdom is on the earth and rewards are given according to works. These rewards are rulership here on the earth...

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[beardedad]

Drew

If you will read the whole chapter Paul is talking about Israel, save gentiles and the Law to fellow Romans. If you remember he is a Roman Jew first and a Christian second. The Law was everything to him and he, as a Jewish leader was talking to them about the Jewish Law that they had to follow, but Israel during this time was not following God’s law. You had the Pharisees and Sadducees who, both in their own right, took and interpreted the law as they saw fit. Paul was showing that under the Law both Jew and Gentile alike were sinners. He asks that if you show yourself to be a great follower and teacher of the Law, do you practice it. Do you teach yourself it. He talks about the one that is circumcised (Jew) and sinning be as though uncircumcised (Gentiles) and the one who follows the Law but is uncircumcised be as though circumcised. He is leading the reader to a point that there is no one Jew or Gentile that is without sin. As he states in Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The point he makes is that there is nobody that is sinless, not him, not anybody and by the Law we would be judged for our sins but God’s righteousness has been revealed to us apart from the Law. It comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith and believe in him. Paul goes on to say in chapter 3
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Here Paul clearly states that salvation was by Christ death and our faith in him not by works. Works are a byproduct of our faith, a outpouring of our love for God to others.

 

[Drew]

Drew

You are still removing context. Paul has set up a "this or that" comparison. You can't grab a verse and build assumptions from it. He was comparing the actions and the consequences of believers and idolators. In verse 5 Paul tells the stubborn and unrepentant the error of their ways, and in verse 6 he lets them know that "God's gonna gitcha" as a warning.

Yes, he does write "persistence in doing good", but as a juxtaposition to the damning lifestyle laid out in chapter 1.

First, let me thank you for addressing my question - I am glad that this issue is being discussed.

While I would agree that Paul is contrasting believers and idolators, he still says what he says!!!

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

How can you reconcile this statement with your position. You cannot, legitimately anyway, say "here in 2:6-7, Paul is saying that those who are saved on other grounds - faith - will get additional rewards".

That is simply not what Paul is saying here - he says you get, yes, eternal life, based on what you have done! If you are taking the view I have just described in the preceding paragraph, how is this not simple denial of what Paul actually wrote?

For my part, I can take Paul at his word if I hold this view: The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works.

This view does not force me to do what you have to do: reword 2:6-7 to make it say something other than what it actually says.

Please forgive me for conferring motive (and I don't even know if this is something you in particular believe), but I can think of no other explanation. The view that salvation apart from good works is clearly challenged by 2:6-7, which is as clear an articulation that eternal life is granted by good works. So what happens? The person who wants to hold on to the view that 'works don't matter' either ignores 2:6-7, or seems to think they have the right to reword it. Either way, there is a big problem.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew,

I surely identify with your frustration, so, I would ask for your patience with the understanding and knowledge that I just don't agree with a works-righteous Gospel.

"In Romans 2:6-7, Paul is saying," those who are justified by faith ("those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality") will receive eternal life. In Romans 2:8-9, but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish."

With all respect, how are you not simply rewording this passage?

You change what Paul has written from this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

...to this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have believed.”[a] 7 These people who are justified by their faith will demonstrate persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, and he will give eternal life on the basis of the faith, not the accompanying good works.

You basically change "according to what they have done" to "according to what they have believed" How can we proceed if you feel free to reword what Paul has written?

Two points:

1. I am quite sure you are a nice person and that you honestly believe that your "reworking" of the passage does not distort its intended meaning. Of course, for either of us, such an earnest belief can, of course, be mistaken.

2. You almost seem to be saying "Paul cannot be taken at his word in 2:6-7, hence we have to reword what he says, because unless we reword 2:6-7, we cannot make sense of other statements he makes about justification by faith". I believe to Paul's position to be this: The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works. Note how this view allows me to accept 2:6-7 at face value and to accept statements that we are justified by faith. I will have a lot more to say about this later.

For the moment, do you agree that you are essentially changing the "plain" or "surface" meaning of 2:6-7 in your answer above? If you disagree, we will proceed to more fundamental issues related to the structure of the english sentences that constitute 2:6-7, and the meanings of words in those sentences.

 

[Butch5]

Forgive me for quoting my own post. However, the point being made is that our "salvation" does as I see it depend upon the constancy of the Divine and not on that of ourselves. If we are "chosen before the foundation of the word" then nothing we can do can make God love us more, nothing we can do can make god love us less.

For our "salvation" - or not - to change according to our latest "work", then we have a salvation of works, pure and simple.

True "works" spring from gratitude/faith.

The Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, wrote.....Our real journey in life is interior: it is a matter of growth, deepening, and of an ever greater surrender to the creative action of love and grace in our hearts.

(from "The Road to Joy", sub-titled "Letters to New and Old Friends")

There will always be times of inconstancy - of falling - on our side, but the path remains solid underfoot, because the love of the Divine is constant.

So I learn to trust God, not myself.

Hello,

Unless you're Jewish you don't fall into that category that was chosen before the foundation of the world.

I don't think Mr Merton had it conrrect. Jesus called us to serve others not for an interior journey.

 

[Drew]

If I am wrong Drew, and I live my life for Jesus Christ believing that I'm justified by His righteousness and not my own, what does that matter to you?

Great, important question.

I believe this is really a life and death issue, in a very literal sense. On another board, there was a poster who posted all sorts of false, misleading statements (the context does not matter). I challenged him, asking him "how can you say these things, knowing that you will be judged at the end?"

His answer: "I have an advocate - Jesus Christ - who will "give me" His righteousness".

I trust the point is clear: This is not simply an "academic" argument about the meaning of texts - eternal destinies are at issue. If good works do indeed 'count' re final salvation, then to the extent that people believe that 'how they live' is not important as long as they have "Jesus's imputed righteousness", they truly are in danger of final loss.

Now let me be clear: I have no reason at all to doubt that you live a life full of "good deeds" even though I think you are mistaken on this point of "theology". So let's say I am right about 2:6-7 just for the sake of argument. You will show up at judgement, and will be given eternal life based on the "Spirit-generated good works" you have done, even if you are surprised at how this all plays out at the end (since you expected to be granted eternal life based on Jesus' imputed righteousness").

The problem is those people who think they can go on sinning without repentance, just because "I am saved apart from what I do".

 

[Butch5]

Drew

If you will read the whole chapter Paul is talking about Israel, save gentiles and the Law to fellow Romans. If you remember he is a Roman Jew first and a Christian second. The Law was everything to him and he, as a Jewish leader was talking to them about the Jewish Law that they had to follow, but Israel during this time was not following God’s law. You had the Pharisees and Sadducees who, both in their own right, took and interpreted the law as they saw fit. Paul was showing that under the Law both Jew and Gentile alike were sinners. He asks that if you show yourself to be a great follower and teacher of the Law, do you practice it. Do you teach yourself it. He talks about the one that is circumcised (Jew) and sinning be as though uncircumcised (Gentiles) and the one who follows the Law but is uncircumcised be as though circumcised. He is leading the reader to a point that there is no one Jew or Gentile that is without sin. As he states in Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The point he makes is that there is nobody that is sinless, not him, not anybody and by the Law we would be judged for our sins but God’s righteousness has been revealed to us apart from the Law. It comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith and believe in him. Paul goes on to say in chapter 3
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Here Paul clearly states that salvation was by Christ death and our faith in him not by works. Works are a byproduct of our faith, a outpouring of our love for God to others.

Hi Beardedad,

I agree that he was addressing Jewish believers, however, he was still giving their ultimate outcome based on their actions. He is not addrssing actions based in the Law because there was not promise of eternal life in the Law.

Additonally, I don't think the argument of works are a by product of faith can be made wither. James says faith without works is dead. Therefore, fiath must be accompanied by works before it is considered a "Living " faith.

 

[Drew]

I would submit to you that when Paul says not of works he is referring to the Mosaic Law.

Yes. The context makes this abundantly clear. Verses 11 and following make it clear that the 'works' in verse 9 have to be the works of the Law of Moses in particular, not 'good works' in general. This issue is treated in grisly detail in another thread, but let me give the basis idea:

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not the more general category of “good worksâ€.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works†is not qualified by the term “good†or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works†of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “worksâ€

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. The writer continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

 

[Butch5]

Great, important question.

I believe this is really a life and death issue, in a very literal sense. On another board, there was a poster who posted all sorts of false, misleading statements (the context does not matter). I challenged him, asking him "how can you say these things, knowing that you will be judged at the end?"

His answer: "I have an advocate - Jesus Christ - who will "give me" His righteousness".

I trust the point is clear: This is not simply an "academic" argument about the meaning of texts - eternal destinies are at issue. If good works do indeed 'count' re final salvation, then to the extent that people believe that 'how they live' is not important as long as they have "Jesus's imputed righteousness", they truly are in danger of final loss.

Now let me be clear: I have no reason at all to doubt that you live a life full of "good deeds" even though I think you are mistaken on this point of "theology". So let's say I am right about 2:6-7 just for the sake of argument. You will show up at judgement, and will be given eternal life based on the "Spirit-generated good works" you have done, even if you are surprised at how this all plays out at the end (since you expected to be granted eternal life based on Jesus' imputed righteousness").

The problem is those people who think they can go on sinning without repentance, just because "I am saved apart from what I do".

That's the real danger!

 

[Butch5]

Yes. The context makes this abundantly clear. Verses 11 and following make it clear that the 'works' in verse 9 have to be the works of the Law of Moses in particular, not 'good works' in general. This issue is treated in grisly detail in another thread, but let me give the basis idea:

Here is Ephesians 2:8-9 from the NASB:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that (Y)no one may boast.

In verse 9, the writer is denying the salvific power of doing the works of Law of Moses, and not the more general category of “good worksâ€.

A point of method: It simply will not do to declare up front that the writer is talking about good works here. That begs the question, since the term “works†is not qualified by the term “good†or anything else that would rule out the possibility that the “works†of the Law of Moses is the subject. The fair-minded reader needs to ask which of the following views makes more sense given both the local context and the broader context of the whole letter:

1. The salvific power of doing good works is being denied;

2. The salvific power of doing the works of the Law of Moses is being denied.

Explanation 2 is the one that makes sense in light of what the writer goes on to say in verse 11.

Proceeding to an examination of Ephesians 2:11 and following, Paul uses the "therefore" to show us that he is now going to fill out the implications of his denial of salvation by “worksâ€

Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

The writer is clearly now talking about the Jew-Gentile divide, and how the actions of Jesus have brought Jew and Gentile together. Doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, is what demarcates Jew from Gentile in terms of covenant membership and shuts the Gentile out of citizenship in Israel. The writer continues:

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations

How much more clear could the writer be? What has divided the Jew from the Gentile and been the barrier? Good works? Obviously not, both Jew and Gentile are on “the same side†of any good works barrier (first 20 or so verses of Romans 3). It is doing the works of Law of Moses, of course, that is the very thing that the Jew might otherwise boast in and which is now being declared to not be salvific.

I agree!