Obey God or never enter Heaven!

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Good Morning smaller,

Thank you for your last post. It's a great struggle to come to grips with the depth of sin we are guilty of. God has allowed me to experience my sin to such a degree that there is no way I, with reason, could deny my sinfulness. I think this is the same for everyone, but self-righteousness can blind us, and yes I've played the hypocrite and still struggle to keep from playing the hypocrite. I lose site easily. These thoughts remind of the passage in John 3:19-21.
John 3:19-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€


It's interesting that those who try to justify themselves in what they do are the ones who can't acknowledge their sin, they won't come to the light because their deeds are evil. If we come to the light, we will acknowledge like Isaiah, 'I am a man of unclean lips,' and so much more.

- Davies

Yes, I know we see similarly on these matters. And in this sight our ears do change what they hear. What I once insulated myself from, I had to accept from His Lips as TRUE in order to find and be in Truth. It is a struggle of tribulations.

I expect nearly every reader of the scriptures has shuddered and shunned hearing the particular Words of Him I put up in that prior post.

If we live in Christ, we will live by how many Words of God?

All of them.

It is problematic to find HIS LIFE in the Words we don't like, but LIFE is there, even when it is seemingly opposite. If we are not offended, we find His Wisdom. It is no longer an offence to me to hear the fact that I am filled with dead mens bones, knowing internal temptation of the tempter. In fact I may go so far as to say if I am therefore internally tempted, every sin that tempter has ever done and committed is in fact in me at that moment.

Dead indeed. Very very dead.

You may appreciate hearing this. I know it will not be understood by most.

Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Every believer shuns these Words. ALL of them, at first, as I did also.


What every believer also fails to see or to HEAR is that we ALL work iniquity!

All have sinned and have sin, period, end of conversation.

If we understand temptation of the tempter is within our minds and hearts, some will TAKE JOY in hearing those Words.

Do you HEAR the difference in hearing when heard IN TRUTH?

It will bring you to OPPOSITE conclusions about those same Words as you might find in the conventional marketplace that sells

AVOIDANCE.

The bad news is that such hearers also are MARKED ENEMIES of Satan, the real 'men' of sin.

Then they will also understand this matter much better;

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

There is a world full of inhabitants that Jesus does show by His Truth. When we see it, that unseen world, which comes from an honest INTERNAL LOOK, such will see much differently and much better.

And I know this will sound strange in the ears of most. Like a different language.

There is in fact internal disruption that causes these Words NOT to be heard and 'personally' applied.

Same can be said with many matters of text.

All believers think themselves only a GOOD TREE, even though we all know we don't always do only good, but also bad.

Every believer thinks themselves only a sheep, when for a fact we also do, down to the last one of us, goat works.

Every believer thinks themselves only a wheat, when in fact the tare grows from same ground of our earthly bodies.

And on and on it will go, in an exact OPPOSITE of what we are sold in various doctrines.

Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

This will be the final DIVISION. And it will be PERSONAL.

If we see the facts of temptation of the tempter within us, we will certainly see TWO MEN sleeping in ONE BED, and see that it is US sleeping there with our enemy.

s

 

[Thankful1]

How am I forcing you to me sad for me? I'm no more mocking you than you are mocking Christ my friend. I'm trying to understand your theology.

I asked you for a few direct simple answers to a few direct simple questions. You're not clear. Not clear at all, to what the bible teaches and I need you to defend it and explain it. Can you answer the questions I asked? Let's try it again.

1. Your saying one has to be perfectly Sinless to be saved and enter into the kingdom of heaven. Correct?

2. A true Christian is sinless. Correct?

3. You mentioned people who want to "feel righteous, yet sin". How do you go about feeling righteous the most?

No I do not believe one needs to be perfectly sinless to enter the kingdom or God.

I do believe one needs to be free from a sin that leads to death.

A sin that leads to death is one that is deliberately committed by anyone who has been given knowledge of the truth.

(Hebrews 10:26-27) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

The Law will judge people, who do not know the truth.

You ask if a true Christian is sinless. If one understands that a Christian is one who follows Jesus Christ our Lord and God, then yes to your question. You see a true Christian walks as Jesus walked. Jesus did not sin.

How do I feel righteous you ask? God has made a home in me, and he protects his home.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

 

[Drew]

Many seem to be blind to the fact that Christ Jesus paid the price for our sins! They continue in the "flesh" seeking to justify the "flesh"! Only by the "Spirit" can one serve God. One must "reckon" themselves dead to sin, to have power over sin.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I do not believe you are applying this verse correctly. In context, it is quite clear that Paul is analyzing the plight of the Jews of his day. Here, he asserts that they have not understand what God has being doing in their history, and they have come to the (erroneous) belief that righteousness was only available to Jews.

So when Paul writes about "establishing their own righteousness", he is not critiquing the person (Jew or Gentile) who believes in "good works" righteousness - he is instead critiquing his fellow Jew, who believed that righteousness was his due, in specific virtue of his ethnicity.

We must avoid the trap of thinking that Paul is writing to us. He is not - he is writing to the church at Rome. Don't misread me - I am not saying this has no relevance to us, but Paul is here addressing a specifically Jewish belief.

 

[Mitspa]

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I do not believe you are applying this verse correctly. In context, it is quite clear that Paul is analyzing the plight of the Jews of his day. Here, he asserts that they have not understand what God has being doing in their history, and they have come to the (erroneous) belief that righteousness was only available to Jews.

So when Paul writes about "establishing their own righteousness", he is not critiquing the person (Jew or Gentile) who believes in "good works" righteousness - he is instead critiquing his fellow Jew, who believed that righteousness was his due, in specific virtue of his ethnicity.

We must avoid the trap of thinking that Paul is writing to us. He is not - he is writing to the church at Rome. Don't misread me - I am not saying this has no relevance to us, but Paul is here addressing a specifically Jewish belief.

So Paul is not speaking to all the believers just the Jews?

Rom 10:4



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:12



For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

So then the Jews cannot obtain righteousness, by the law but we are supposed too?

And Paul was not really speaking to "All believers"?

I think you are very wrong. You would have to deny the whole of the New Testament, to believe what you just tried to say!

Although I know some like to believe the scriptures that they want to believe, and make some religious theory about the others! I hope you are not in that group?

 

[Butch5]

I disagree,it wasn't work it was his obeying God that showed his faith in God. James was trying to show that our faith to be true we need to obey God if he asks us to do something. God was not testing Abaraham's works he was testing his faith. You are right faith without works is dead faith. Faith does save, but it is what we do after that shows if we have true faith in Christ.

You disagree with the apostle? It was James who said it was works, not me. He said Abraham was justified by his works. He said it is works that make fatih complete. Without works faith is dead, therefore works must give life to faith.

 

[Drew]

So Paul is not speaking to all the believers just the Jews?

Rom 10:4



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:12

In the specific verse you quoted, he was talking about Jews. However, I do not think this is worth arguing over.

 

[Davies]

Hello Bro Davies

You caught me again! Making everthing of Christ Jesus, and nothing of man!:yes

Php 3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I am not ashamed!

I sometimes refer to others who have worn the path of faith before me because we do have a cloud of witnesses to Jesus, one of which is J. Vernon McGee. I looked up Philippians 3:9, and this is what Vernon had to say:

"Paul exhibits an effort and an energy that is derived from the Holy Spirit, which is far greater than any legal effort. Under the Law, this man was willing to go to Damascus to stamp out the followers of Christ. Under the grace-faith system, he will go to the end of the earth to make followers of Christ and to witness for Him. Faith produces something. Let us be perfectly clear about this. Your works have nothing to do with your salvation. You are shut up to a cross for salvation. God has only one question for the lost sinner to answer: "What will you do with Jesus who died for you?" If you will accept Him as your Savior, you are saved by faith. That is the righteousness that comes only by faith. Even your life after salvation doesn't build up a righteousness that has anything to do with your salvation. Your faith in Christ is a motivation for you to live for God. That is the reason Paul went on to live as he did." Thru The Bible, Volume 4, p.315

Granted, McGee is a man just like you and me, and Scripture is our authority when speaking the truth, but you hear the ring of truth so clearly illustrated and elaborated by McGee and many others here on the forums. McGee states, "You are shut up to a cross for salvation." The pride of man hates this. We want to be able to say we contributed in some way, but God has not left that open to us. How many will be denied eternal life based on one's own pride for what they have done as smaller eludes to in Matthew 7:21-23? Has anyone here cast out demons, prophesied, or done many wonders in the name of Jesus? I don't think so. How much more should we think the good things we have done in the name of Jesus will get us nowhere with Him? To think otherwise is to climb the heights of utter folly. Even so, God can even find His lost sheep there!

I hope you had a great Sunday, and even you didn't, it was for your benefit.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

In the specific verse you quoted, he was talking about Jews. However, I do not think this is worth arguing over.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

That just makes no sense! part of the scriptures are true for Jews, and others are true for Gentiles
So the Jews are the ones who need to have Gods Righteousness by faith, but not the Gentiles?
So Gentiles can now become righteous through keeping the Law? but the Jews can not? I would not want to try and defend that position either! Seeing how the next verse reads to EVERY ONE!


Rom 10:4



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:12



For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

No man can be justified by the Law! thats the point! Many today still seek to justify themselves by keeping the law and by religious works! They have not submitted to Gods Righteousness, that is my point!
The scriptures are for EVERY believer at all times!

 

[Drew]

That just makes no sense! part of the scriptures are true for Jews, and others are true for Gentiles.

It make perfect sense.

Paul is arguing in Romans 9, 10, and 11 that God has hardened Israel as part of the plan to bring salvation to the Gentiles. If you want to challenge me on this fundamental point, please go ahead, but I suggest you first carefully read Romans 11 before you make the challenge.

As part of this argument, he points out that, indeed, many Jews have come to believe that salvation is only for Jews, not Gentiles. Thus Paul can write about his fellow Jews:

For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God

...meaning that they tried to establish a righteousness that was "their own" in the sense that it was for Jews only, to the exclusion of Gentiles.

Context is always important - we cannot swoop down on an isolated text and use it as evidence to support a conclusion we have otherwise arrived at.

 

[Knotical]

Context is always important - we cannot swoop down on an isolated text and use it as evidence to support a conclusion we have otherwise arrived at.

Interesting that this statement would be coming from you.

 

[Mitspa]

It make perfect sense.

Paul is arguing in Romans 9, 10, and 11 that God has hardened Israel as part of the plan to bring salvation to the Gentiles. If you want to challenge me on this fundamental point, please go ahead, but I suggest you first carefully read Romans 11 before you make the challenge.

As part of this argument, he points out that, indeed, many Jews have come to believe that salvation is only for Jews, not Gentiles. Thus Paul can write about his fellow Jews:

For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God

...meaning that they tried to establish a righteousness that was "their own" in the sense that it was for Jews only, to the exclusion of Gentiles.

Context is always important - we cannot swoop down on an isolated text and use it as evidence to support a conclusion we have otherwise arrived at.

Of course he uses the jews as the "example"! Self-righteousness "BY THE LAW" is the issue! A "rightoeusness" apart from Gods Righteousness is the ISSUE!

Here is your context, "context" all ways works better with scripture


Rom 10:3



For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4



For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:5





For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,


Of course you use the jews as the example of a righteousness that is by law!

The Law and mans efforts to earn "righteousness" is THE ISSUE! can you not see that?


Paul speaks to all believers throughout Romans and uses the Jews as an example through all of it!

But to make the scripture somehow void? In its effects to us as believers" is not honest!

Rom 10:12



For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Did Paul go back and forth? is half of the epistle true and another half not true? Who decides? Let me guess, Its you?

 

[Drew]

Paul speaks to all believers throughout Romans and uses the Jews as an example through all of it!

No, Paul is not doing this.

For Paul, what God has done with and to the nation is not a "typological" example of what is going on with the rest of the world. If you believe that, I suggest you have missed one of the central pillars of Paul's entire theology of God's covenant faithfulness - that the Jews have a played a very specific, unique in God's overall redemptive plan.

Did Paul go back and forth? is half of the epistle true and another half not true? Who decides? Let me guess, Its you?

I am no more, and no less of an "interpreter" than are you.

 

[Drew]

I sometimes refer to others who have worn the path of faith before me because we do have a cloud of witnesses to Jesus, one of which is J. Vernon McGee. I looked up Philippians 3:9, and this is what Vernon had to say:

"..... Your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

What do you think Mr. McGee would say that Paul is saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

...or this;

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Again, please do not tell me about the "broader picture". I am interested in these very particular statements. Paul wrote them, and presumably is meaning to tell us something by them.

What do you think that is? They certainy seem to says that "good works" is the criterion for eternal life. How these statements be read otherwise, without fundamentlally rewriting them?

 

[Grazer]

What do you think Mr. McGee would say that Paul is saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

...or this;

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Again, please do not tell me about the "broader picture". I am interested in these very particular statements. Paul wrote them, and presumably is meaning to tell us something by them.

What do you think that is? They certainy seem to says that "good works" is the criterion for eternal life. How these statements be read otherwise, without fundamentlally rewriting them?

Or more accurately/strictly speaking, he's meaning to tell whoever he is writing to something

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Drew]

Or more accurately/strictly speaking, he's meaning to tell whoever he is writing to something

I agree, but I do not see how this changes the fundamental challenge these texts confer on those who believe that final salvation has nothing to do with how we have actually lived our lives.

 

[Grazer]

I agree, but I do not see how this changes the fundamental challenge these texts confer on those who believe that final salvation has nothing to do with how we have actually lived our lives.

It just adds context to the texts and I think context is very important

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[savedbygrace57]

Obey God or never enter Heaven!

We can tell who this poster is trusting in to get to heaven, whose obedience he is trusting in.

My Faith is in the obedeince of one Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And that one is not me, but the Lord Jesus Christ !

 

[Mitspa]

What do you think Mr. McGee would say that Paul is saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

...or this;

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Again, please do not tell me about the "broader picture". I am interested in these very particular statements. Paul wrote them, and presumably is meaning to tell us something by them.

What do you think that is? They certainy seem to says that "good works" is the criterion for eternal life. How these statements be read otherwise, without fundamentlally rewriting them?

None of those scriptures make any point against the "righteousness" of faith, for the just shall live by faith! that which is not of faith is sin. Only in faith can one walk in the Spirit. the "flesh" are those who seek to justify themselves "by works" apart from faith and walking in the Spirit! which seems to descibe some of you on this thread!

 

[Mitspa]

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No, Paul is not doing this.

For Paul, what God has done with and to the nation is not a "typological" example of what is going on with the rest of the world. If you believe that, I suggest you have missed one of the central pillars of Paul's entire theology of God's covenant faithfulness - that the Jews have a played a very specific, unique in God's overall redemptive plan.


I am no more, and no less of an "interpreter" than are you.

That has nothing to do with our first discussion. I would change the subject too if I were you! You might want to find someone else to try and bully around with your unbiblical and carnal views on scripture, I know what I believe and In whom I believe.

Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: :biglol

 

[Butch5]

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No, Paul is not doing this.

For Paul, what God has done with and to the nation is not a "typological" example of what is going on with the rest of the world. If you believe that, I suggest you have missed one of the central pillars of Paul's entire theology of God's covenant faithfulness - that the Jews have a played a very specific, unique in God's overall redemptive plan.

That's one of the dangers of proof texting.