Oh You BetterWatch Out You Better Not...

[theLords]

Let's stop taking swipes at one another, especially in a thread discussing the love of God (despite whether one argues that it's conditional or unconditional).

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Its not possible to separate God's love from God's justice or God's mercy.

Did you read the OP?

But where would we be if God was just with us? Not a fun place. The fact that he so loved the world pardoned us from eternal suffering. That is not justice. It's mercy and grace at it's best.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Let's stop taking swipes at one another, especially in a thread discussing the love of God (despite whether one argues that it's conditional or unconditional).

THANK YOU! That is probably the smartest thing anyone has said so far! The Lords, you rock!

 

[Hitch]

But where would we be if God was just with us? Not a fun place. The fact that he so loved the world pardoned us from eternal suffering. That is not justice. It's mercy and grace at it's best.

It is God's justice that makes Christ's blood necessary, it is God's justice that make Christ blood efficacious, it is God's mercy that he makes the application where he will.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Our sin is what seperated us from God. God is so perfect that he could not be around sin so we were seperated. Because God had mercy on us he spared us from an eternity without him which is eternal suffering. He gave his son so he could be with us. Hell is the absence of God which we avoided because of Christ. God gives us a choice to share a life with him. Earthly and heavenly. We couldn't live him if he forced us to love him. So that is why he gives us choice. Those who chose not to be with him get what they ask for. An eternity without him. God will never force anyone to come to him.

 

[Hitch]

Our sin is what seperated us from God. God is so perfect that he could not be around sin so we were seperated. Because God had mercy on us he spared us from an eternity without him which is eternal suffering. He gave his son so he could be with us. Hell is the absence of God which we avoided because of Christ. God gives us a choice to share a life with him. Earthly and heavenly. We couldn't live him if he forced us to love him. So that is why he gives us choice. Those who chose not to be with him get what they ask for. An eternity without him. God will never force anyone to come to him.

What ever you say.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


And there is another true saying;

8Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Malachi 1:2-4 (ASV) "I have loved you, saith Jehovah. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother, saith Jehovah: yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and [gave] his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are beaten down, but we will return and build the waste places; thus saith Jehovah of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and men shall call them The border of wickedness, and The people against whom Jehovah hath indignation for ever.

If you can understand what it means to 'hate' your family members, and the world, and the money in your pocket, as God commands us to do that, then you can begin to understand what it means for God to hate. I'd be willing to bet you don't hate your money and your family the way you say God hates sinners.

Your inanity does not alter the Scripture or the nature of God. You are better off making a god after your own image since you dont care for the one revealed in Scripture.

Actually I was thinking this is what you are doing. Since you can only think that God can hate in accordance with your earth bound understanding and use of the word you assume God must hate that way, too.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's stop taking swipes at one another, especially in a thread discussing the love of God (despite whether one argues that it's conditional or unconditional).

It think it only fair and honest that Hitch acknowledge that he embellished the Matthew 7 passage to help his case.

 

[theLords]

It think it only fair and honest that Hitch acknowledge that he embellished the Matthew 7 passage to help his case.

That is no excuse for Hitch or anyone responding to him, to make inflammatory remarks.

Please take that as a gentle, warning everyone. :nod

 

[Jesusfreak97]

If you can understand what it means to 'hate' your family members, and the world, and the money in your pocket, as God commands us to do that, then you can begin to understand what it means for God to hate. I'd be willing to bet you don't hate your money and your family the way you say God hates sinners.




Actually I was thinking this is what you are doing. Since you can only think that God can hate in accordance with your earth bound understanding and use of the word you assume God must hate that way, too.

Hey I'm not understanding what you're saying. Could you clarify please? I kinda sorta get it but I wanna be sure...

 

[Hitch]

It think it only fair and honest that Hitch acknowledge that he embellished the Matthew 7 passage to help his case.

LOL You're right I just assumed that no one on a Christian forum would have access to any sort of online bible so I could say Moses built the ark and no one would ever know the truth.

*MOD NOTE* According to the ToS, all Scripture that is not KJV, must be documented accordingly in respect to copyright laws.


What does that have to do with this post ? Every body KNOWS Moses built the ark

If you really think that when the Lord 'knows' someone its nothing more that the way you 'know' the guy at the gas station

This post has been edited for insulting other members.

 

[Hitch]

If you can understand what it means to 'hate' your family members, and the world, and the money in your pocket, as God commands us to do that, then you can begin to understand what it means for God to hate. I'd be willing to bet you don't hate your money and your family the way you say God hates sinners.

So is this your counter to the passage? A effort on your part

Actually I was thinking this is what you are doing. Since you can only think that God can hate in accordance with your earth bound understanding and use of the word you assume God must hate that way, too.

Wow

Mod Note: This post has been edited for insulting other members

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Mod Note: This post has been edited to remove quoted post

ok...that was pretty harsh...

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Are you doing this to get a reaction out of people?

 

[Hitch]

Are you doing this to get a reaction out of people?

I've asked if you bothered to read the OP. You ,so far as I know, didnt respond to that question.

If there is something you have to say wrt the topic you're more than welcome to agree, disagree, challenge ,counter or question .

If you dont care to discuss the topic please be kind enough to refrain from posting here.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Yes I read the OP and I also know what this has turned in to. A bunch of finger pointing trying to sound theological.

 

[theLords]

Warning #2

 

[farouk]

Not sure I understand the recent dialogue; but I think some of it has been deleted anyway.

 

[Hitch]

Yes I read the OP and I also know what this has turned in to. A bunch of finger pointing trying to sound theological.

Then do your part to keep the forum on track. Pick two or three points quote them and demolish Gerstner with your brilliance.

Then come back and finish him off.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

“Repent or Perish†forces people to ponder seriously the popular slogan, “God hates the sin and loves the sinner.â€



Is a necessary repentance consistent with “God loves the sinner?†If God loves the sinner while he is alive, it is strange that God sends him to hell as soon as he dies. God loves the sinner to death? Loves him to everlasting torment?
There is something wrong here. Either God loves the sinner and will not send him into the furnace of His eternal wrath; or He sends him into His eternal wrath and does not love him. Either “you are going to hell unless†because God hates you, as you are. Or, God loves you and “you are going to hell unless†is false.
What leads almost everyone to believe that God loves the sinner is that God does the sinner so much good. He bestows so many favors including letting him continue to live. How can God let the sinner live and give him so many blessings, unless He loves him? There is a kind of love between God and sinners. We call it the “love of benevolence.†That means the love of good will. Benevolens — willing well. Doing well. God can do well to the sinner without loving him with the other kind of love. “Complacent love,†a pleasure in, affection for, admiration of. It exists in perfection between the Father and the Son, “in whom I am well pleasedâ€(Matt.3:17; Mk.1:11).
God is perfectly displeased with the sinner. The sinner hates God, disobeys God, is ungrateful to God for all His favors, would kill God if he could. He is dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph.2:1) “The thoughts and intents of his heart are only evil continually.†(Gen.6:5) He is the slave of sin (John 8:34), the servant of the devil, (Eph.2:2).
God has no complacent love for the sinner at all. He has a perfect hatred of him, “I hate them with a perfect hatred.â€(Ps. 139:22)
Why does God do so much good for those He perfectly hates and as soon as they die impenitent send them immediately to hell and never in all eternity does them one solitary favor more? It is to show His willingness to forgive the sinner if only he will repent. It shows the sincerity of God’s willingness to pardon the greatest sinner that, even while He hates him with a perfect hatred, He showers him with constant daily blessings.
As I mentioned in Chapter 1, there is no “problem of pain.†The only problem is the “problem of pleasure.†Dreadful as it is, it is not surprising that God sends sinners to hell. The problem is why He does not do it sooner. Why does God let a hell-deserving sinner live a minute and then let him prosper like the green bay tree (Ps.37:35),as well? It is obvious that God can destroy the ungrateful. Why doesn’t He? That is the problem.
Yes, the sinner suffers, too. But so little. It is a gentle reminder: though the sinner receives many divine favors, that does not mean that God is pleased with him. It is in spite of the fact that God hates him with a perfect hatred.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness
and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the
kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Rom.2:4)
​

Our text also shows that the one reason a sinner is permitted to be born into and enjoy this world rather than wake up as an infant in hell is that God, with His love of benevolence, is determined to give the sinner a “chance,†an opportunity to repent. Alas, most sinners use it as a chance to sin! They make God’s blessed love of benevolence into a curse.
In this world the sinner enjoys nothing but the benevolent love of God. Every experience of pain as well as pleasure is from God’s love — of benevolence. Even pain is from love because it tends to wake the sinner to his danger. God indeed loves the sinner, whom He hates with a perfect hatred, with a perfect love of benevolence.
The sinner, as I said, makes every divine blessing into a curse including God’s love of benevolence. This he does by construing a love of benevolence as a love of complacency.
Construing God’s love of benevolence as a love of complacency is fatal. Instead of the divine forbearance leading to repentance, it is used as an excuse for non-repentance. Thus the sinner is not saved but damned by God’s love of benevolence.
God “loves†the sinner benevolently and hates the sinner displacently. If the sinner dies impenitent, God removes His love of benevolence and pours out the full wrath of his displacent love.
As far as “hatred of sins†is concerned, sins do not exist apart from the sinner. God does hate sinning, killing, stealing, lying, lusting, etc., but this alludes to the perpetrator of these crimes.
God never hates the redeemed even when they sin. Is He an unfair respecter of persons? No! (Act. 10:34) God hates the unredeemed sinner but loves the redeemed even when they sin for a good and just reason. God loves the redeemed even when they sin because His Son, in whom God is always well-pleased, ever lives to make intercession for them. (Rom.8:27, 34) Christ died to atone for the guilt of His people’s sins. When they sin, these are atoned-for sins. They are sins with their guilt removed. In one sense, they are not sins at all. God does not hate His people when they sin because they are in His Son, Christ Jesus. And they are made acceptable in His Son. He “has made us accepted in the Beloved.â€(Eph. 1:6)
Divine nepotism? No, His Son died for these people and paid the price for their sins past, present, and future. They are cancelled before they are committed. That is truth, not fiction. Righteousness, not nepotistic favoritism. In fact, it is not their original relationship to Christ which makes their sins guiltless, but Christ’s making satisfaction for their sins that created the relationship as children adopted into the family of God.
God, in hot displeasure, chastens His people when they sin (Ps.6: 1; 38:1). It is not hatred but complacent love in Christ Jesus. “Whom the Lord loves He chastens.†(Heb. 12:6,7) God loves His people even when He afflicts them and hates the impenitent even when He befriends them.
Why the chastening when there is love? God blessed the wicked when there was holy hatred. Now He chastens His people when there is holy love. This is because true moral behavior must be perfected. No sin can be tolerated in those for whom Christ died. He died to purchase a “peculiar people zealous of good works.â€(Titus 2:14) Being redeemed, so far from tolerating their sinning, precludes it. Anyone who persists in sinning proves thereby that he is not a child of God. God punishes His own especially because they are His children. “You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth: Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.â€(Amos 3:2)
“Upright†man was promised and warned. A holy, just, and perfect God would promise and warn. Eternal life — if obedient. Instant death — the moment of disobedience. (Gen.3:5; Ecc.7:29)
When man sinned, he died spiritually and was rejected from communion with God his maker and friend. (Gen.3; Rom. 5:12ff) The wrath of God was upon him; labor was his lot; suffering in childbirth; alienation and death, as threatened. God is holy; of purer eyes than to behold iniquity. (Hab. 1:13)
Yet mortal man “lived†on (though to live in pleasure is death, 1 Tim. 5:6), and so did promise. When the angels sinned they perished without delay, without promise, without hope.
Man’s fate was better and worse than the fallen angels’ lot. It was a day of possible salvation but also of possible greater damnation, greater damnation for sinning away the day of possible salvation. God in His wrath; God in His mercy; at the same time.
This was a terrible but holy wrath. God was using His omnipotent power but according to His perfect justice. Man was affected but he deserved it. It was no more, no less, than he deserved. God is no more powerful than holy; no more holy than powerful.
As man continued to sin, God continued to increase His fury. His wrath is in no hurry. The record is kept, all accounts receivable. Every idle word will be brought into judgment (Matt. 12:36). The cup of iniquity must be filled. Then wrath to the uttermost. (1 Thess. 2:16) God’s glory shines in the perfection of His work.
But — God decreed the sin, (Prov. 16:4). Yes, for good and for glory. Man did it for evil and for shame.
A little sin and infinite wrath? A little sin against an infinite God is infinite. Wrath is in perfect proportion to the guilt. But even if the punishment were finite it would go in “infinitely,†unendingly, because the sinner continues to sin in resenting it.
All glory to God for His holy anger. (John 17:3; Rom.9:17f)

Dr John Gerstner, used with permission.

Ok so like I said before I see alot in here where it says "God sends him..." no they choose not to be with because God gives us a choice to be with him or not. If we chose not we go where God is not and where the absence of God is is hell and that is the only place where God isn't. On earth we have the holy spirit so he is here for those who want him. By the time we die we have chisen do we want God? yes or no. Yes heaven . no, God doesn't force himself on us. It wouldn't be love if he forced us to love him now would it? There happy now?