[_ Old Earth _] Old Earth Vs. Literal Reading of the Bible.

[VaultZero4Me]

Yeah LOL i was told in class that we can see 130+/- light years of the universe yet the universe is only supposed to be 19 billion years old

Read this, it’ll help you understand your apparent dilemma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Size_of_th ... onceptions

Long time span, but i won most of the class over when i did my presentations, i even brought a fish tank in with different grit and color sand and replicated the flood. It settled into different layers quite fine, Hmm almost like what we see all over the world

And I suppose that this magical layering made it such that it also complies with radio dating methods, never mixed humans with dinos, eroded the grand canyon to look like the river made it over millions of years, etc. etc.

Almost makes me think that someone wanted us to think the earth was old.

Yet 6 days isn't? What standard are you using to decide that it isn't?


I use my head.

Explain.

Dude if God made the sun stay still by stopping the rotation of the earth i am pretty sure he would not let all those problems happen. After all he made the thing (and everything else) i am pretty sure he can control it.

Its just no rational. Why?

Why stand the rotation still when he could have very much more easily just make light appear from no where?

Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark's dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high! It could have been larger, because several larger-sized cubits were used. But the 45-centimeter (18-inch) cubit is long enough to show the enormous size of the Ark.

No boats have ever been succesfuly made at that size composed of pure wood. Find me one and I will eat dirt.

Not necessarily, beside the ark was built to float not sail.

If by floating you mean sitting on the bottom of the ocean full of water, then ok.

Well we have animals today so obviously whatever God did it worked.

As for bacteria..they could easily thrive in animal waste or on the animals themselves then mutate (evolve) into over strains of whatever, remember i said i believe in evolution but i also stated it had its limits, bacteria no matter what mutation is still a bacteria.

Waste in the ark or waste under 2 miles of water pressure?

Its not hard to have all the different varieties that we have today in 4400+/- years

If you had a magical rapid period of mutations than yeah. Of course fossils do not document anything of the sort whatsoever. They would be hard pressed to have expanded the human population to have enough to create the tower of Babel. It took 30,000 people I believe to slave build the pyramids, and Babel is supposed to be bigger than that.

You believe animals can adapt, but you don't believe their diets could have been different then and changed over 4400+/- years?

not without any evidence in the fossil records I don’t. I might if you can support your claim, except by saying it had to happen for the global flood to work. I am a show me guy. Show me. [/quote]

[/quote] Was the earth dry one second, and then flooded the next? No. According to the legend it rain 40 days and 40 nights. There would be extraordinary currents as the water rushed all over the globe. There would be super currents and super tidal waves. No and ifs or buts. Super currents, super tidal waves crushing everything and splintering the boat. Not to mention that the amount of humidity would be so high, Noah and all the animals would drown just by breathing.

Maybe my figure was wrong but there is way more water then land ( surface land) on the earth, take all the water from the ice caps melt it add it to the oceans and flatten out the land to a uniform depth and its completely covered with water. again Dr. Walt Brown shown us.

So his figures count that the earth was completely spherical and dry, or does he assume there were already oceans? I am confused.

Yes peer reviewed..by whom people who already strike down YE theories, yes sure. listen guy, we don't need to play by your rules.

Its not my rules its science rules, laid out by reason. If they have such good ideas, why only publish it in obscure books that only people who already believe in YEC will buy. Rock the scientific community! Make the scientists hurt by showing them how wrong they all are! Take it to the papers if they are silenced. Heck, theres the internet. There is no excuse for not getting out papers for peer review.

 

[John]

And I suppose that this magical layering made it such that it also complies with radio dating methods, never mixed humans with dinos, eroded the grand canyon to look like the river made it over millions of years, etc. etc.

Almost makes me think that someone wanted us to think the earth was old.

Yup watch Dr. Browns video.. Yet Again.

Explain.

It cannot stand for anything else besides 6 literal days, the Gap theory fails and the 6 days do not mean eras as i already pointed out in this thread.

Its just no rational. Why?

Why stand the rotation still when he could have very much more easily just make light appear from no where?

Why talk using a burning bush, why part the sea rather then have them all walk on it? Why do anything?

No boats have ever been succesfuly made at that size composed of pure wood. Find me one and I will eat dirt.

I hope your hungry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dunderberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula%27s_Giant_Ship

Unconfirmed ships
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_ship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark

If by floating you mean sitting on the bottom of the ocean full of water, then ok.

Nope, it had to ride out the rough patch at the start then gently float like a barge the rest of the way.

Waste in the ark or waste under 2 miles of water pressure?

Ark. or on floating debris.

If you had a magical rapid period of mutations than yeah. Of course fossils do not document anything of the sort whatsoever. They would be hard pressed to have expanded the human population to have enough to create the tower of Babel. It took 30,000 people I believe to slave build the pyramids, and Babel is supposed to be bigger than that.

Of course because we would see less fossils post flood. Look at the diversity of dogs in the last 200 years alone.

not without any evidence in the fossil records I don’t. I might if you can support your claim, except by saying it had to happen for the global flood to work. I am a show me guy. Show me.

The fossil record is worthless for post flood activities.

Was the earth dry one second, and then flooded the next? No. According to the legend it rain 40 days and 40 nights. There would be extraordinary currents as the water rushed all over the globe. There would be super currents and super tidal waves. No and ifs or buts. Super currents, super tidal waves crushing everything and splintering the boat. Not to mention that the amount of humidity would be so high, Noah and all the animals would drown just by breathing.

the water level did not flood the world with just rain, the great fountains of the deep burst, WATCH WALTS VIDEO, LMBO!!

So his figures count that the earth was completely spherical and dry, or does he assume there were already oceans? I am confused.

Did you watch the video?

Its not my rules its science rules, laid out by reason.

"Science rules" are not all truth. they are laid out by evidences the problem is the interpretation of these evidences.

If they have such good ideas, why only publish it in obscure books that only people who already believe in YEC will buy

Last time i checked anyone could pick up a copy :o

.

Rock the scientific community! Make the scientists hurt by showing them how wrong they all are!

Alas, we try, but as the Bible says " they are willingly ignorant...dumb on purpose"

Take it to the papers if they are silenced. Heck, theres the internet. There is no excuse for not getting out papers for peer review.

Your running in circles, YE's papers peer reviewed my humanist/evolutionists = no good because their "science rules" are set up to ban the supernatural and that's not how science works.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dunderberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula%27s_Giant_Ship

1. first link broken
2. Iron clad - not wood
3. significantly smaller than ark

 

[John]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyoming_(schooner)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dunderberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula%27s_Giant_Ship

1. first link broken
2. Iron clad - not wood
3. significantly smaller than ark

#3 worked ( for a while )

But the ark only needed to ride out the rough stuff and float for the rest, going where ever the waves took her. and during the ""down time" Noah's and his family could have made repairs and such. God told Noah to build the ark to save them and the animals, do you think he would let anything happen to them when all hell broke loose?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Of course because we would see less fossils post flood. Look at the diversity of dogs in the last 200 years alone.

Huh?

Support please.

Dogs are selectively bread during the last few hundred years for specific tasks. What has that to do with anything?

The fossil record is worthless for post flood activities.

No its not, support why you say it is.

the water level did not flood the world with just rain, the great fountains of the deep burst, WATCH WALTS VIDEO, LMBO!!

You realize if that much water was trapped under the earth before that time, pre-noah would have been walking on quick sand.

Did you watch the video?

link it

"Science rules" are not all truth. they are laid out by evidences the problem is the interpretation of these evidences.

complete avoidance of the question of why they won’t submit anything to current science literature. You can’t just say science is against it. That doesn’t work.

Last time i checked anyone could pick up a copy

Just like anyone can pick up a copy of some obscure alien abduction book. Doesn’t make it scientific literature, which it tries to claim to be. Peer review or stay in fiction isle.

Alas, we try, but as the Bible says " they are willingly ignorant...dumb on purpose"

I just asked why they don’t publish in peer, you admitted they don’t. Therefore they don’t try.

Your running in circles, YE's papers peer reviewed my humanist/evolutionists = no good because their "science rules" are set up to ban the supernatural and that's not how science works.

That my deer Watson is the definition of science. Testable theories.

Supernatural therefore by default is not science. That’s why we call them the natural sciences and not super natural.

Now, you can say rather or not if you agree with the scientific method, but remember you are typing to me on something science built ;p

 

[John]

Huh?

Support please.

Well most of the fossils were from the flood, there has been less after wards

Dogs are selectively bread during the last few hundred years for specific tasks. What has that to do with anything?

Yes we have so many dogs do to selective breeding, but other animals can easily crete variaites without help from humans in 4400+\- years.

No its not, support why you say it is.

Because the flood created most of the fossils, and and fossils made post flood are hard to come by.

You realize if that much water was trapped under the earth before that time, pre-noah would have been walking on quick sand.

No, because God made the earth upon the water, it was fine. Till the great flood.

link it

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... 2oDQ&hl=en

complete avoidance of the question of why they won’t submit anything to current science literature. You can’t just say science is against it. That doesn’t work.

I just created a thread in the science forum on this issue.

Just like anyone can pick up a copy of some obscure alien abduction book. Doesn’t make it scientific literature, which it tries to claim to be. Peer review or stay in fiction isle.

NWRT.

I just asked why they don’t publish in peer, you admitted they don’t. Therefore they don’t try.

Its pointless to try to submits YE theory in the circles of the evolutionist.

That my deer Watson is the definition of science. Testable theories.

We can test everything Post flood. The flood set out to destroy the world before it, and it did a good job and it left so much evidence its crazy.

Supernatural therefore by default is not science. That’s why we call them the natural sciences and not super natural.

Creation can be applied in Geology and Biology and many other fields.

Now, you can say rather or not if you agree with the scientific method, but remember you are typing to me on something science built ;p

That's irrelevant, we are talking origins and the literal reading of Genesis not how computers work.

 

[John]

I suggest reading Walt browns book " in the beginning" i would even send you my copy for free but its the last copy I've got and its autographed..i can't part with this one maybe once i get more in stock.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Well most of the fossils were from the flood, there has been less after wards

10k years is the generally accepted youngest date to include something as a fossil. Most biblical historians date the flood around 2500-3500b bce. Or 4500 -5500 years ago.

I am not sure what you are saying.

Because the flood created most of the fossils, and and fossils made post flood are hard to come by.

again, it supposedly layered these all perfectly to reside in the same layers, and corrupted all forms of radiometric dating to make it appear as if the earth gradually covered the remains in layers over millions of years? Feels a bit far fetched to me.

No, because God made the earth upon the water, it was fine. Till the great flood.

So he kept the water from making the ground everywhere like quicksand? Where is that water at now?

We can test everything Post flood. The flood set out to destroy the world before it, and it did a good job and it left so much evidence its crazy.

Again where is this evidence being studied besides video links. Why is the whole scientific community unaware of this evidence?

Creation can be applied in Geology and Biology and many other fields.

If its super natural then is out of nature. Its not testable therefore will never be science.

That's irrelevant, we are talking origins and the literal reading of Genesis not how computers work.

You made a point that science is against super nature. I explained that is science’s default position because it deals with only things testable. Therefore will never deal with the super natural. Doesn’t care to address it, never will. That is theology.

The computer was to illustrate that for the natural world, it does a pretty good job. We are communicating across the internet because of science and its position on nature not super nature.

I suggest reading Walt browns book " in the beginning" i would even send you my copy for free but its the last copy I've got and its autographed..i can't part with this one maybe once i get more in stock.

Ive read a few YEC books.

From theories on variable light speed to account for seeing far away stars, to comets melting to flood the earth, dinos living with man, the flood creating all of the fossils in one year, etc etc.

All of which stems from misunderstanding other theories and little to no original research and supporting evidence.

Junk science in order to support a literal view of one book of the Bible.

 

[freeway]

guys a lot of post since what yesterday... my to cents.... first off I am a creationist plain and simple.. some here say they are christians and believe in evolution, fine with me... but a couple of question for them.. if you believe evolution... then, are you going to jumble up the evolutionary pattern that God used in the bible, you say 6million to 4.5 billions years so that a lot of time in between events, on day 3 God created the plants. on day 4 God created sun and moon...so about a million years or better, maybe billion waiting for sunlight... Also if man evolved like some say then he came from lets say "ape" and slowly evolving and leaving million of fossil in his wake.. after all you also say there was no world wide flood, so all the fossils should abound.. now as man evolved he would maturely become smarter and smarter, so at what point was he wise enough to be put in the garden, given a soul, but wait what about his parents did they go from slobbering 'apes' to their son a human. and what about all the others before him that was lacking intelligent, so they did not became what 100% human. If that is the case how do we know we are humans maybe next year is when God starts handing out souls for sure? If we are still evolving we should be smarter yet.. but what about Adam... This guy was very smart, smarter than any of us here living today... tell me one person that can give names to every animal and remember them.. millions, and he didn't have a computer to help him.. I can probably keep tract of a 100 or better remember this is the first time he'd seen them. If this is true and it is, then we have been going the wrong way for quite some time. And if we are and evolving, we should if evolution is true these bodies that evolution has built for us was built for work, but now we are in the computer age we should be seeing human with quite larger heads and bigger butts for sitting.... one last thing.. you say the peppered moth has evolved for the industrial age changing colors to protect it better against its predators..in a short what 100 to 150 years evolution made changes in it makeup... well how about the Jewish race.. since Abraham males where to be circumsized.. granted not every male I would think has been but millions, maybe billions, I would bet. Why hasn't evolution taken care of this... after all it should know whats waiting. Is that not what evolution is about changes to better suit it environment. Evolution somehow knew the birds where going to eat the moths that did not blend in....thats amazing Evolution is intelligent itself... how is that possible..How could evolution control its own intelligent... enough for now....

sorry if I missed spelled some words or stuff like that its late.... freeway 8-) 8-)

 

[BobRyan]

guys a lot of post since what yesterday... my to cents.... first off I am a creationist plain and simple.. some here say they are christians and believe in evolution, fine with me... but a couple of question for them.. if you believe evolution... then, are you going to jumble up the evolutionary pattern that God used in the bible, you say 6million to 4.5 billions years so that a lot of time in between events, on day 3 God created the plants. on day 4 God created sun and moon...so about a million years or better, maybe billion waiting for sunlight...

Score 1 for Freeway!

Also in the discussion the main point is "What does the Bible SAY".

1. It uses the UNIQUE formula "evening and morning" for EACH Day. That is always a 24 hour day and never 100 million years of night followed by 100 million years of day.

2. There is a SUMMARY of the Gen 1-2:4 "ACCOUNT" of the creation of earth and all life on earth given in Exodus 20:8-11 and in THAT summary the DAYS (yom) of Genesis are exactly equated to the days "yom" of those hearing the words spoken at Sinai.

End of debate.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

A literal reading of the Bible suggests that the Earth is young. But many seem to say that we should not read the Bible literally or it was not written literally,

Certainly atheists and agnostics would not recommend that we actually believe the Bible.

However Christians have this concept of "exegesis" letting the Bible speak for itself INSTEAD of inserting atheist dogma INTO it each time we read a chapter.

And this is key to understanding just how FAR the Bible goes in contradicting the basic doctrines and dogma of the religion we know today as atheism. FIRST you have to know what the Bible actually says and be able to render it accurately given the TEXT itself -- THEN you can compare it to the popular myths and storytelling of atheism and "evaluate the gap".

Bob

 

[John]

Good posts, BobRyan.

 

[freeway]

yes good post Bob..................... 8-) 8-)

 

[John]

So is this thread stuffed in the coffin, or does someone else have anything else to say?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

whenever someone starts throwing around junk terms equating evolution to atheistm, or calling atheism a religion, i think the rational logical discussion is over.

At least I have no more interest in reading a thread mucked up by such posts.

 

[Free]

I don't understand the title of this thread. Old Earth and a "literal reading" of the Bible are not necessarily opposed.

 

[John]

I don't understand the title of this thread. Old Earth and a "literal reading" of the Bible are not necessarily opposed.

A direct reading of the Bible supports the young earth view.

 

[Free]

I am not convinced that it does.

 

[John]

I am not convinced that it does.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Have you read through the whole thread?

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Earlier in this thread Me and John had a couple posts talking about why ID'rs and YEC's dont post in PR journals, and instead opt for printing books for profit. I had been hunting for a quote I had read from Dembski (famous ID'r) a while back and finally found it

"I've just gotten kind of blase about submitting things to journals where you often wait two years to get things into print," he says. "And I find I can actually get the turnaround faster by writing a book and getting the ideas expressed there. My books sell well. I get a royalty. And the material gets read more."

- -William Dembski in The Chronicle of Higher Education Dec. 21, 2001

Does that sound like science? Sounds like laziness and money motivation to me.