[_ Old Earth _] Old Earth Vs. Literal Reading of the Bible.

^ That sounds great! Ideals expressed to the public faster without the atheistic/evolutionist/humanist or what have you, striking the ideal down because it goes against their belief and the guy can make a mint on the side. Prop goes out to this guy 8-)
 
johnmuise said:
^ That sounds great! Ideals expressed to the public faster without the atheistic/evolutionist/humanist or what have you, striking the ideal down because it goes against their belief and the guy can make a mint on the side. Prop goes out to this guy 8-)

Actually its not so great :)

It means that the public will be consuming ill thought out theories that haven't had the trials of peers who are educated enough on the matter to review the material.

The public will then fall prey to these theories before anyone is able to debunk them. Once they are debunked, the consumers of these products either don't take notice, or are already reading another book full of new flawed unreviewed theories.

Of course Dembski is still earning his royalties on the sales.

Any "scientist" that follows this method will be scoffed at by the scientific community.

This is snake-oil salesmanship at its best.
 
It means that the public will be consuming ill thought out theories that haven't had the trials of peers who are educated enough on the matter to review the material.

There is your problem. Humanists do make the rules.

Any "scientist" that follows this method will be scoffed at by the scientific community.

Creation scientists by definition are scientists and the only reason they are scoffed at is because the "scientific community" is a breeding ground for humanistic/evolutionary/atheistic type "scientists" that don't share the same world view.
 
johnmuise said:
It means that the public will be consuming ill thought out theories that haven't had the trials of peers who are educated enough on the matter to review the material.

There is your problem. Humanists do make the rules.

[quote:0eafd]Any "scientist" that follows this method will be scoffed at by the scientific community.

Creation scientists by definition are scientists and the only reason they are scoffed at is because the "scientific community" is a breeding ground for humanistic/evolutionary/atheistic type "scientists" that don't share the same world view.[/quote:0eafd]

Maybe you would like to get rid of clinical trials for medications as well?

Bring it straight out to the public and skip the real science.

The creation scientist's that follow this method are not scientists but in name.

I have pointed out to you why they are scoffed at. It is a very logical reason. They do not follow established guidelines, which are implace to provide scrutiny. Scrutiny is the basis of the scientific method. Testing things before believing them. PR journals is a great testing ground that they decide to skip, and blame the community.

You are rationalizing that entirely away without any real basis, and say the guidelines are there specifically to rid the world of Christian views.

I have some news for you, many Christian scientists follow this method and are widely accepted. Their ideas are not always, but thats no different than the humanist. If they post a theory and it fails, then it won't gain merit. Happens all the time.
 
Maybe you would like to get rid of clinical trials for medications as well?

Umm no, just the whole theory of origins.



The creation scientist's that follow this method are not scientists but in name.

If they have schooling and such then they are scientists

I have pointed out to you why they are scoffed at. It is a very logical reason. They do not follow established guidelines,

Ding ding ding




Scrutiny is the basis of the scientific method. Testing things before believing them. PR journals is a great testing ground that they decide to skip, and blame the community.

Say because evolution is taken as a scientific fact and someone finds some bones in the dirt and they try to fit them in the TOE puzzle and submits for PR of course its gonna pas because the PRers are working from the assumption that the whole ToE style of origins is factual.
You are rationalizing that entirely away without any real basis, and say the guidelines are there specifically to rid the world of Christian views.

The rules are set by non creationists and are founded in this case on evolution being factual which it is not.
 
Vault: Maybe you would like to get rid of clinical trials for medications as well?


John:
Umm no, just the whole theory of origins.

What is your criteria of when to follow established guidelines and when not to?

For the drug companies you like them to, but not scientists dealing with originas.

What would you say about a drug company that was complaining about the requirements for its drugs? What if the company says it doesn’t like them because they are not passing their drugs fast enough.

If they have schooling and such then they are scientists

Schooling does not make you practice good science.

Say because evolution is taken as a scientific fact and someone finds some bones in the dirt and they try to fit them in the TOE puzzle and submits for PR of course its gonna pas because the PRers are working from the assumption that the whole ToE style of origins is factual.

I have demonstrated my knowledge of many YEC theories. I know both sides.

If this is your knowledge of ToE and how PRJ’s work, you do not have the necessary information to be making a rational opinion.

PR’rs don’t give into bravado. There is no brotherly love when it comes to making your mark. If there were holes to which you believe, someone would be very very famous and rich off of it. Trust me, nothing is getting a free pass.

That is the perception that certain people want you to have. Its wrong.

The rules are set by non creationists and are founded in this case on evolution being factual which it is not.

PRJ’s aren’t used exclusively by people involved with biology, palaeontology, genetics, etc.

It is used by chemists, physicists, engineers, medical doctors, etc.
 
johnmuise said:
Free said:
I am not convinced that it does.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. :)

Have you read through the whole thread?
Yes, everyone certainly is entitled to their own opinion. I read through most of the thread but failed to see any substantial evidence that a literal reading of the Creation account results in a young Earth.
 
As I said, I have yet to see any substantial evidence.The genealogies are not at all to be used to determine a time-line for the age of the Earth. They can be shown to contain purposeful omissions and there are some discrepancies. They have a purpose and were intended for a purpose, but I highly doubt they were ever meant to be used to determine the age of the Earth.
 
Okay fair enough, but why do you suppose the need for a old earth? surly not for long ages of evolution? that completely violates the Bible do you believe in the Great flood and a 6 day creation ?

I might not be able to respond for some time as this will be my last message for about 25 days.
 
There is no need for an old earth but it is either old or it is not. If science is saying that it is very old, we must take that into consideration. Of course, a scientist that believes in evolution will always be biased towards evolution when looking at any sort of evidence, just as a creationist will always be biased towards creation.

I believe that Genesis ought to be read literally as any other reading undermines most of Scripture. Most who believe that Genesis is largely metaphorical haven't really thought through the implications of that line of reasoning. Having said that, I do not think that the 6 days of Creation are necessarily literal 6, 24-hour periods of time. The Creation accounts are clear on one thing: man is a special creation, made in the image of God.

I might not be able to respond for some time as this will be my last message for about 25 days.
No worries. I'm only around for another week before I'm off to Turkey for 10 days.
 
Free said:
As I said, I have yet to see any substantial evidence.The genealogies are not at all to be used to determine a time-line for the age of the Earth. They can be shown to contain purposeful omissions and there are some discrepancies. They have a purpose and were intended for a purpose, but I highly doubt they were ever meant to be used to determine the age of the Earth.

There are no omissions "shown" for the genealogies given in Genesis 5-12.

These are the ones WITH actual numeric timelines -- the other genealogies do not contain the ages and years so they can have gaps.

Bob
 
johnmuise said:
Free said:
I don't understand the title of this thread. Old Earth and a "literal reading" of the Bible are not necessarily opposed.

A direct reading of the Bible supports the young earth view.

There are two components --

young geology

young life (ALL life on earth)

Life can not be much more than 6000 years old and stil lhave a Bible that has meaning.

Geology "might be" older -- if you take the earth "formless and void AND having water ON it" as the start of day one -- rather than the "creative act of Day one". That is debatable without doing violence to the text. Certainly by the end of "day one" we have rotation of the planet and a single-sided light source for "evening and morning were the first day"

The question is not "is the Bible right" the question is "what does it say".

It is one thing not to agree with the text -- it is another not to know what it says.

The darwinists try to cast doubt on the Bible using the ancient form of the argument "yea has God said that ..." Gen 3:1-4.

It is clear that not only LIFE but also the functioning (lit) Sun and the Moon originated in that literal 7 day week of Creation.
 
Re: Old Earth and literal reading of the Bible.

johnmuise said:
Ok, did you learn the speed of light in a vacuum in physics? Do you realize that we see stars that are billions of light years away?

Yeah LOL i was told in class that we can see 130+/- light years of the universe yet the universe is only supposed to be 19 billion years old. :lol:

13.7 Billion years old
160 billion light years across.

Which means "something" was "moving faster than the speed of light" EVEN to get the storytelling of cosmologists to work out.

(Reminds me of that problem they have with the CMB).

Bob
 
Re: Old Earth and literal reading of the Bible.

BobRyan said:
johnmuise said:
Ok, did you learn the speed of light in a vacuum in physics? Do you realize that we see stars that are billions of light years away?

Yeah LOL i was told in class that we can see 130+/- light years of the universe yet the universe is only supposed to be 19 billion years old. :lol:

13.7 Billion years old
160 billion light years across.

Which means "something" was "moving faster than the speed of light" EVEN to get the storytelling of cosmologists to work out.

(Reminds me of that problem they have with the CMB).

Bob

Completely wrong.

78 billion light years is the actual size commonly held. 78 billion LY is the diameter. You may need to study geometry since you are doubling a diameter. The radius of a sphere or circle is doubled to get diameter. Doubling a diameter makes no sense. You may want to pick up a middle school book on geometry.

Secondly, space is not flat. It is highly curved. Hubble's law gives evidence that space is expanding. Therefore multiplying the age of the universe being 13.7 billion years does not mean we can only see that far.
 
Re: Old Earth and literal reading of the Bible.

BobRyan said:
johnmuise said:
Ok, did you learn the speed of light in a vacuum in physics? Do you realize that we see stars that are billions of light years away?

Yeah LOL i was told in class that we can see 130+/- light years of the universe yet the universe is only supposed to be 19 billion years old. :lol:

13.7 Billion years old
160 billion light years across.

Which means "something" was "moving faster than the speed of light" EVEN to get the storytelling of cosmologists to work out.

(Reminds me of that problem they have with the CMB).

Bob

VaultZero4Me said:
Completely wrong.

78 billion light years is the actual size commonly held. 78 billion LY is the diameter. You may need to study geometry since you are doubling a diameter. The radius of a sphere or circle is doubled to get diameter. Doubling a diameter makes no sense. You may want to pick up a middle school book on geometry.

I am always amazed at the number of ways to inform you that you are dead wrong.


Your quote about 78 to 83 B LY has to do with the radius that we see in any one direction looking out from earth.

But I am pleased that you do indicate that you understand the correct relationship of radius to diameter -- I suppose that "is something" when it comes to your posts on this thread.

If you don't like the links I gave -- go to this one!!
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... /focus.asp


Secondly, space is not flat. It is highly curved. Hubble's law gives evidence that space is expanding. Therefore multiplying the age of the universe being 13.7 billion years does not mean we can only see that far.

"yawwwnnn"

- space time itself is curved and changes shape depending the mass and speed of objects moving through it -- WE LIVE in space time so we see IN IT not above or beyond it. Think of a fiberoptic cable when an image is transmitted through it -- does it matter if the cable bends?

Think about it.

Bob
 
I am sorry, but those were all misreported. Something that many people know.

The 156 light years was gotten by mistaken the diameter for radius and doubling it.

The reports stemmed from the original work cited here http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0310233
in 2004. Read the original work, and not what USA Today has to say about it.

76 billion is the lower boundary for the DIAMETER, not radius.

Please cite some new original work showing data otherwise, not news reporting, as you know they usually screw up alot.

If you have read anything on this for yourself, then you would know about the mistake in reporting. You are showing that you really didn't, and just saw some headline.

"yawwwnnn"

- space time itself is curved and changes shape depending the mass and speed of objects moving through it -- WE LIVE in space time so we see IN IT not above or beyond it. Think of a fiberoptic cable when an image is transmitted through it -- does it matter if the cable bends?

except that Hubble didn't show that things were just moving away from each other, the universe is expanding.

Your fiber optic cable example has no meaning at all in this context.

Think about it.
 
VaultZero4Me said:
I am sorry, but those were all misreported. Something that many people know.

The 156 light years was gotten by mistaken the diameter for radius and doubling it.

The reports stemmed from the original work cited here http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0310233
in 2004. Read the original work, and not what USA Today has to say about it.

Certainly I did not realize that Harvard was reporting the results wrong in 2005 -

76 billion is the lower boundary for the DIAMETER, not radius.

Yes I saw Wiki saying that too -

Misconceptions
Many secondary sources have reported a wide variety of incorrect figures for the size of the visible universe. Some of these are listed below.

13.7 billion light-years. The age of the universe is about 13.7 billion years. While it is commonly understood that nothing travels faster than light, it is a common misconception that the radius of the observable universe must therefore amount to only 13.7 billion light-years. This reasoning only makes sense if the universe is the flat spacetime of special relativity; in the real universe, spacetime is highly curved on cosmological scales, which means that 3-space (which is roughly flat) is expanding, as evidenced by Hubble's law. Distances obtained as the speed of light multiplied by a cosmological time interval have no direct physical significance. [5]

15.8 billion light-years. This is obtained in the same way as the 13.7 billion light year figure, but starting from an incorrect age of the universe which was reported in the popular press in mid-2006[6] [7] [8]. For an analysis of this claim and the paper that prompted it, see [9].

27 billion light-years. This is a diameter obtained from the (incorrect) radius of 13.7 billion light-years.

78 billion light-years. This is a lower bound for the size of the whole universe, based on the estimated current distance between points that we can see on opposite sides of the cosmic microwave background radiation, so this figure represents the diameter of the sphere formed by the CMBR. If the whole universe is smaller than this sphere, then light has had time to circumnavigate it since the big bang, producing multiple images of distant points in the CMBR, which would show up as patterns of repeating circles.[10] Cornish et al looked for such an effect at scales of up to 24 gigaparsecs (78 billion light years) and failed to find it, and suggested that if they could extend their search to all possible orientations, they would then "be able to exclude the possibility that we live in a universe smaller than 24 Gpc in diameter". The authors also estimated that with "lower noise and higher resolution CMB maps (from WMAP's extended mission and from Planck), we will be able to search for smaller circles and extend the limit to ~28 Gpc."[1] This estimate of the maximum diameter of the CMBR sphere that will be visible in planned experiments corresponds to a radius of 14 gigaparsecs, the same number given in the previous section.

156 billion light-years. This figure was obtained by doubling 78 billion light-years on the assumption that it is a radius. Since 78 billion light-years is already a diameter, the doubled figure is incorrect. This figure was very widely reported.[11] [12] [13]

180 billion light-years. This estimate accompanied the age estimate of 15.8 billion years in some sources; it was obtained by incorrectly adding 15 percent to the incorrect figure of 156 billion light years

Please cite some new original work showing data otherwise, not news reporting, as you know they usually screw up alot.

Seems the lesson here is that new original work is not trustworthy until enough time has passed to vet it. 2-3 years?

If you have read anything on this for yourself, then you would know about the mistake in reporting.

"yawwwnnn"

1. Harvard's site did not reference this as "a bad number"

2. I have no intention of first doing the research then waiting 3 years to see if it holds up then reporting it.

3. Why in the world do you go to such lengths to pretend this has anything to do with "you" ?? As if "reporting the news" is "offensive"??

Why can't you simply state something you know and see if IT holds up instead of doing that nose dive into the pavement each time?

Bob said
- space time itself is curved and changes shape depending the mass and speed of objects moving through it -- WE LIVE in space time so we see IN IT not above or beyond it. Think of a fiberoptic cable when an image is transmitted through it -- does it matter if the cable bends?

except that Hubble didn't show that things were just moving away from each other, the universe is expanding.

No joke.

Your fiber optic cable example has no meaning at all in this context.

Hint: The fiber optic illustration has to do with the CMB and the observable radius through the medium of curved fabric of space time.

This gets me back to my question above -- why do you come out of the closet as if this reference to JohnM on the diameter of the universe as reported by Havard is some kind of slam against "you"???

Where do you come up with that?

Bob
 
BobRyan said:
VaultZero4Me said:
I am sorry, but those were all misreported. Something that many people know.

The 156 light years was gotten by mistaken the diameter for radius and doubling it.

The reports stemmed from the original work cited here http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0310233
in 2004. Read the original work, and not what USA Today has to say about it.

Certainly I did not realize that Harvard was reporting the results wrong in 2005 -

76 billion is the lower boundary for the DIAMETER, not radius.

Yes I saw Wiki saying that too -

[quote:c93e5]
Misconceptions
Many secondary sources have reported a wide variety of incorrect figures for the size of the visible universe. Some of these are listed below.

13.7 billion light-years. The age of the universe is about 13.7 billion years. While it is commonly understood that nothing travels faster than light, it is a common misconception that the radius of the observable universe must therefore amount to only 13.7 billion light-years. This reasoning only makes sense if the universe is the flat spacetime of special relativity; in the real universe, spacetime is highly curved on cosmological scales, which means that 3-space (which is roughly flat) is expanding, as evidenced by Hubble's law. Distances obtained as the speed of light multiplied by a cosmological time interval have no direct physical significance. [5]

15.8 billion light-years. This is obtained in the same way as the 13.7 billion light year figure, but starting from an incorrect age of the universe which was reported in the popular press in mid-2006[6] [7] [8]. For an analysis of this claim and the paper that prompted it, see [9].

27 billion light-years. This is a diameter obtained from the (incorrect) radius of 13.7 billion light-years.

78 billion light-years. This is a lower bound for the size of the whole universe, based on the estimated current distance between points that we can see on opposite sides of the cosmic microwave background radiation, so this figure represents the diameter of the sphere formed by the CMBR. If the whole universe is smaller than this sphere, then light has had time to circumnavigate it since the big bang, producing multiple images of distant points in the CMBR, which would show up as patterns of repeating circles.[10] Cornish et al looked for such an effect at scales of up to 24 gigaparsecs (78 billion light years) and failed to find it, and suggested that if they could extend their search to all possible orientations, they would then "be able to exclude the possibility that we live in a universe smaller than 24 Gpc in diameter". The authors also estimated that with "lower noise and higher resolution CMB maps (from WMAP's extended mission and from Planck), we will be able to search for smaller circles and extend the limit to ~28 Gpc."[1] This estimate of the maximum diameter of the CMBR sphere that will be visible in planned experiments corresponds to a radius of 14 gigaparsecs, the same number given in the previous section.

156 billion light-years. This figure was obtained by doubling 78 billion light-years on the assumption that it is a radius. Since 78 billion light-years is already a diameter, the doubled figure is incorrect. This figure was very widely reported.[11] [12] [13]

180 billion light-years. This estimate accompanied the age estimate of 15.8 billion years in some sources; it was obtained by incorrectly adding 15 percent to the incorrect figure of 156 billion light years

Please cite some new original work showing data otherwise, not news reporting, as you know they usually screw up alot.

Seems the lesson here is that new original work is not trustworthy until enough time has passed to vet it. 2-3 years?

If you have read anything on this for yourself, then you would know about the mistake in reporting.

"yawwwnnn"

1. Harvard's site did not reference this as "a bad number"

2. I have no intention of first doing the research then waiting 3 years to see if it holds up then reporting it.

3. Why in the world do you go to such lengths to pretend this has anything to do with "you" ?? As if "reporting the news" is "offensive"??

Why can't you simply state something you know and see if IT holds up instead of doing that nose dive into the pavement each time?

Bob said
- space time itself is curved and changes shape depending the mass and speed of objects moving through it -- WE LIVE in space time so we see IN IT not above or beyond it. Think of a fiberoptic cable when an image is transmitted through it -- does it matter if the cable bends?

except that Hubble didn't show that things were just moving away from each other, the universe is expanding.

No joke.

Your fiber optic cable example has no meaning at all in this context.

Hint: The fiber optic illustration has to do with the CMB and the observable radius through the medium of curved fabric of space time.

This gets me back to my question above -- why do you come out of the closet as if this reference to JohnM on the diameter of the universe as reported by Havard is some kind of slam against "you"???

Where do you come up with that?

Bob[/quote:c93e5]

Bob, my info didnt come from the wiki. I linked my source.

Its like 3 pages, seriously to read it. How hard ia reading three pages? I dont care what your link at Harvard says.

The guy who did the work did not give that as the radius. READ THE ORIGINAL WORK.

The paper is from 2004. I am not sure what you mean by waiting 3 years.

You were wrong. Had wrong info, and go around the barn to not admit it :)
 
The rest of your post I am not clear as to what you are saying. Maybe its late at night for me, but I cant follow the train of thought.

Clarify please.
 
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