Bible Study Old Testament? New Testament? NO, NO!! Only One Covenant (Testament)

[Truthfrees]

Thanks for your help with Susan. Between the two of us, perhaps this dear one can find shalom.

the re-writing of history and the long term hatred against jews and christians has been going on far too long

people are not aware of the truth because they usually believe what they hear in the secular anti-God news

i find it interesting that the secular news rejects the God of jews and christians but embraces the muslim deity

 

[Truthfrees]

I have watched a couple of the Horvath videos and tried to follow this thread. I am amazed the moderators have allowed it to continue. I have a very strong feeling that if Runner or others I could name had started a thread to promote Alan Horvath and his theories, the moderators would have quickly pulled the plug with a warning that "This is the Bible Study forum. It is not a place for the promotion of self-styled gurus and fringe theories."

what kinds of things do you think are unbiblical?

can you give the time stamp for the points in the video you think are wrong?

 

[Truthfrees]

The video speaks for itself, I have no comments....Alan Horvath is a converted Jew. He grew up at the feet of his Grandfather, and his Father who also had converted to the "Way" from Judaism. Being Eastern Hebrews and acquainted with Paleo Hebrew, Alan went further, and became a teacher of the original Otiot sign language that YHWH Elohim wrote with His finger on the two tablets that He gave to Moses. There is no language older than that.

If you fellows want to just pick Alan apart, go for it, but know this that....


Now, I agree that Alan is a mighty man of God, as Bill says. Sooo, he is teaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So be careful!!

i love how he pronounces YHVH - there has been so many opinions of how to pronounce it and this one sounds the most awesome of all the choices - i heard karaite jews pronounce it this way - is he karaite origins or orthodox?

what is otiot sign language?

edit: i found this on otiot:

and this on the name of Christ - this guy is good:

 

[ezrider]

Chopper wants you to pay close attention to these words: which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt. I want you to pay close attention to those words just as Chopper does, because as Chopper has implored, it is very important that we pay attention to the words in the old testament and listen to the Words of the Lord,


Jeremiah 23:5-8
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the Lord our Righteousness. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Since the discussion in this thread is the covenants of the Lord, then we must take a closer look at this passage because so many people do not understand it at all, because their minds are blinded by the things of the flesh. So let's take a closer look.


Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jesus Christ was the righteous Branch that the Lord raised unto David. This is not some future King to be raised up; He was raised up at the Resurrection.

Isaiah 11:1-4
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord:
and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes,
neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor,
and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:
and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the Lord our Righteousness.

This is were people have great difficulty getting past the idea that this came to pass nearly two thousand years ago, because they look with their eyes and see the Jews and the land of Israel and say when have they dwelt safely in the land when are still surrounded by their enemies; But this is not about Israel dwelling at peace with it's neighbors. This is about the promise of the new covenant where Judah and Israel would dwell safely before the Lord because he would withhold his wrath, and their sins and iniquities he would remember no more.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord:
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.


Isaiah 54:8-10
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.


Again, just to reiterate it one more time: This is not about Israel dwelling at peace with it's neighbors. This is about the promise of the new covenant where Judah and Israel would dwell safely before the Lord because he would withhold his wrath threatened under the old covenant, and their sins and iniquities he would remember no more.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Since the discussion in this thread is the covenants of the Lord, then we must take a closer look at this passage because so many people do not understand it at all, because their minds are blinded by the things of the flesh. So let's take a closer look.


Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jesus Christ was the righteous Branch that the Lord raised unto David. This is not some future King to be raised up; He was raised up at the Resurrection.

Isaiah 11:1-4
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,
and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of counsel and might,
the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord:
and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes,
neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor,
and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:
and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.


Jeremiah 23:6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, the Lord our Righteousness.

This is were people have great difficulty getting past the idea that this came to pass nearly two thousand years ago, because they look with their eyes and see the Jews and the land of Israel and say when have they dwelt safely in the land when are still surrounded by their enemies; But this is not about Israel dwelling at peace with it's neighbors. This is about the promise of the new covenant where Judah and Israel would dwell safely before the Lord because he would withhold his wrath, and their sins and iniquities he would remember no more.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the Lord: for they shall all know me,
from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord:
for I will forgive their iniquity,
and I will remember their sin no more.


Isaiah 54:8-10
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.


Again, just to reiterate it one more time: This is not about Israel dwelling at peace with it's neighbors. This is about the promise of the new covenant where Judah and Israel would dwell safely before the Lord because he would withhold his wrath threatened under the old covenant, and their sins and iniquities he would remember no more.

hello ezrider, dirtfarmer here

It is my understanding that Jesus came the first time as a prophet and redeemer. At this present time he is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for the one that have put their faith in his death burial and resurrection. When his second leg or part of his resurrection happens Israel will dwell in peace in their home land.

The scriptures that you have quoted doesn't have any reference to the Church, the body of Christ. That was a mystery that was revealed only to Paul at first. Those prophecies in Jeremiah have to do with the earthly kingdom, not the Church

 

[ezrider]

hello ezrider, dirtfarmer here

It is my understanding that Jesus came the first time as a prophet and redeemer.

Yes, He came the first time as prophet as foretold by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15-19, then confirmed by Peter in Acts 3:21-25 and again by Stephen in Acts 7:37-39.

He came as the redeemer to redeem those who were under the Law as Paul confirms in Galatians 4:4-5

At this present time he is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for the one that have put their faith in his death burial and resurrection.

He maketh intersession for those who remain bound to the works of the law; for those who continue to bring their sins before the cross. But for those who have overcome, they need no intercessor, for they can come before the throne of glory themselves. He is King of kings and Lord of lords.

When his second leg or part of his resurrection happens Israel will dwell in peace in their home land.

The dispensation of Christ is the time that they shall and have dwelt at peace from the wrath of God. This has nothing to do with a promise that a country dwell at peace with their neighbors, although the commandment given by Christ says that we should do our best to live peaceably with our neighbors.


When the second leg of this happens, those who were not found written in the Lamb's book of Life will be made to prove their works before the Lake of Fire and the Glory of the Lord as the children of the desert were to prove themselves before the Lord.

The scriptures that you have quoted doesn't have any reference to the Church, the body of Christ. That was a mystery that was revealed only to Paul at first. Those prophecies in Jeremiah have to do with the earthly kingdom, not the Church

Acts 7:30-32
And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

Acts 7:37-39
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


The Church is the body of Christ, or we might also say that the Spirit of the Lord was in His Temple, which is our body. But Jesus was also the ISRAEL of GOD, for the promise was to Abraham in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 9:6-9
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Hebrews 11:17-18
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Christ was the seed of promise, He is the righteous Branch of David, a root of Abraham. Jacob also was called Israel, but his seed was broken into two house and scattered to the four corners because they did not keep the covenant they made with Moses. The branch of Jacob was broken off from the root and gratfed back into the Righteous Branch, along with the gentiles who believe His Word.

Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Ezekiel 37:11-14
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

The land of Israel is the Church of the Firstborn.

 

[ezrider]

Ezekiel 37:20-24
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

What statutes were they to observe and do? Love your enemy, do good to those who spitefully use you, take no thought for tomorrow, forgive one another as I have forgiven you..........

Ezekiel 37:25:26
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[ezrider]

When his second leg or part of his resurrection happens Israel will dwell in peace in their home land.

When you mention the second part or second leg of his resurrection, just remember that of this he said BLESSED are those of the FIRST RESURRECTION, for they shall NOT be hurt of the SECOND DEATH.

We see in this thread a division, some drawn to the glory that shines forth from Sinai and other who have been called forth to Zion. So as you spoke of the resurrection, let me post some scriptures for you to consider.

Matthew 12:38-40
Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2 Peter 3:5-10
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Fire, heat, a great noise, the voice of thunders; the day of the Lord will come and every knee shall bow before the second death, both those who a written in the Lamb's book of life shall not be hurt of the second death.


Hosea 6:1-3
Come, and let us return unto the Lord:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.
Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord:
his going forth is prepared as the morning;
and he shall come unto us as the rain,
as the latter and former rain unto the earth.


John 5:24-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


There is a resurrection to LIFE and a resurrection to DEATH.

Daniel 12:1-4
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


Something of interest to note, but when Jesus spoke of the sign of Jonah, he was talking about the evil and adulterous generation under his new covenant, so shall the son of man be three days in the heart of man (earth), then after two days he shall revive us. Jesus himself arose early on the third day. But what I want you to pay attention to is the story of Lazarus, for when Lazarus was called forth from the tomb, he was still wrapped in his burial clothes for death, and he was called forth after four days had already passed.


Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east,
and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley;
and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north,
and half of it toward the south.


The mount of Olives, Hmmm? The mountain of God? And the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst, and half the mountain shall remove towards the North, and the other half of it towards to South. These are the two mountains of God. The half removed toward the North is mount Zion which calls you forth to the resurrection of LIFE and the other half removed toward the South is mount Sinai which calls you forth to the resurrection of DEATH. And between the two there is a very great valley indeed.

 

[Jim Parker]

he incorporated pagan rituals and gods into the christian holy days and rituals -

That is utter nonsense. Constantine incorporated exactly NOTHING into Christian worship.
It is dismaying to see how often people recite that nonsense thinking they are reporting hisporical fact. It is not. It is nothing but anti-Catholic religious bigotry put into propaganda.

 

[Truthfrees]

That is utter nonsense. Constantine incorporated exactly NOTHING into Christian worship.
It is dismaying to see how often people recite that nonsense thinking they are reporting hisporical fact. It is not. It is nothing but anti-Catholic religious bigotry put into propaganda.

i'm sorry if it is not true - i found it in several sources - secular history - christian history - jewish history

the jewish history is especially compelling for me because jews lost their lives over this

i'm not sure how to determine it is false when so many sources say otherwise

God bless you my friend - i certainly did not mean to be anti-catholic - i was just sharing what i have been taught from different sources - the jewish sources don't know anything about protestant or catholic - to jews there are only christians/followers of Christ - so jews tell this story about constantine without any mention of catholics

 

[Jim Parker]

i'm sorry if it is not true - i found it in several sources - secular history - christian history - jewish history

the jewish history is especially compelling for me because jews lost their lives over this

i'm not sure how to determine it is false when so many sources say otherwise

God bless you my friend - i certainly did not mean to be anti-catholic - i was just sharing what i have been taught from different sources - the jewish sources don't know anything about protestant or catholic - to jews there are only christians/followers of Christ - so jews tell this story about constantine without any mention of catholics

The only time that Constantine got involved in Church dogma was when the Arian controversy was splitting the church. He told the bishops to meet at Nicaea and to sort it out. But, it was the bishops who sorted it out; Constantine personally gave no theological instructions.
The was a pagan influence introduced into the church by making Christianity the official religion of the empire. There was a huge influx of pagan people coming into the church, being catechized and baptized. They brought with them a worldview from paganism with reference to the office of the priest/bishop. In the pagan world, the priest was the professional one went to in order to deal with a religious issue. They brought that view with them. It was contrary to the Christian teaching of a "priesthood of believers" in which every believer had the authority to go directly to God whereas, in the pagan world, only the professional priest/priestess was able to intercede with the gods on someone's behalf. That developed into the artificial divide between clergy and laity. While the clergy are set aside to do the work of the ministry (including the weekly gathering for worship) under the supervision of the bishop, their position does not mean that they alone are authorized to intercede with God on behalf of a "layman."
The large influx also gave rise to a need for multiple church buildings in a given city with a priest, rather than a bishop, presiding over the service. That developed into an ecclesiastic hierarchy. (In and of itself, not a bad thing)

iakov the fool

 

[Razeontherock]

What I'd like everyone to understand is that Yahshua Jesus wrote the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation. He did so by the Holy Spirit (Ruah ha'Qodesh) as He inspired certain men to document what Abba Father wanted written by His Son thru Spirit filled men.

Yahshua Jesus established a thing called "Covenant"
H548
אֲמָנָה
'ămânâh
am-aw-naw'
Feminine of H543; something fixed, that is, a covenant, an allowance: - certain portion, sure.

Keep in mind that Yahshua Jesus, and the Divine Counsel established the First Covenant to always set in motion the absolute need for a renewed Covenant with Yahshua Jesus as the focal point to accomplish what the First Covenant could not do. The First Covenant with it's instruction, pointed to the stake (cross) on which Yahshua Jesus would fulfill as the Lamb of Elohim (God) all the rules of the First Covenant.

In the absence of the Renewed Covenant, there was needed a loving instruction from Elohim (Divine Counsel) to walk in obedience to the Tora, thus avoiding the traps of Satan and his minions.

Yahshua Jesus, by His death, fulfilled all the sacrifices of the First Covenant. In order to really grasp the meaning of one continual Covenant, First and renewed, one must get it in their thinking that Yahshua Jesus along with the Divine Counsel Elohim created the heavens and earth, man and all creatures. Everything that happens from that point on is the responsibility of the Divine Counsel, not created man!!

Yahshua also established the Covenants in the First Covenant as a road map to the Renewed Covenant. If Yahshua didn't renew the first one, Israel would be stuck forever in their sins of being disobedient forever. Hallelu-Yah Yahshua went to the stake (cross), died as the sacrificial Lamb of Yahweh, shed His Blood, resurrected to the Shamayim (heaven) with His Own Blood and deposited on the mercy seat in the Temple not made by hands.

The Renewed Covenant was established when Yahshua placed His Blood, not on the earth like the Kohen (High Priest) But in the Shamayim in it's Temple by Yahshua Who is the Kohen ha'gadol (High Priest) that renewed the First Covenant which was temporal until Yahshua renewed it for an everlasting Covenant with His Children.

Hey folks, There are several ways of considering a new and in depth teaching of the Word of the "most High El" You can argue and debate and stay in your ignorance, or you can ponder and ask Abba Father for the truth. He always leads us to the Way, Truth, & Life.

You speak of our great High Priest forever bringing the blood of the sacrifice, His own Blood, into the Holy of Holies not that Moses built, but to the very throne of God.
Do you hold that this happened after He told Mary "touch me not," and before He told Thomas to touch Him?

 

[Razeontherock]

If you are asking me to read between the lines I have to admit it, I can't. So in your own words,
Why are they now claiming the land they are now occupying their true homeland when historically they were Shepard's with no homeland of their own?

Historically, the Nation of Israel lived in the land of Israel. A bit later than when they lived as slaves in Egypt, which was a bit later than the time period you refer to.

Israel lived in Israel when Babylon conquered them, and when Rome conquered them. This is historical fact.

There was never a Nation called Palestine, which is apparently what you're arguing?The Ottoman empire / caliphate is invading Europe by stealth, and would like to invade Israel by the same means. This is the device of the devil, which we are not to be ignorant of. Don't be a part of that!

 

[Razeontherock]

The Divine Council was not understood by the Israelites to be the Trinity. See http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/ - the website of Dr. Michael S. Heiser, who is a world-recognized scholar specializing in this very topic:

“The term divine council is used by Hebrew and Semitics scholars to refer to the heavenly host, the pantheon of divine beings who administer the affairs of the cosmos. All ancient Mediterranean cultures had some conception of a divine council. The divine council of Israelite religion, known primarily through the psalms, was distinct in important ways.”​

​

Michael S. Heiser, “Divine Council,” in Dictionary of the Old Testament: Wisdom, Poetry & Writings (ed. Tremper Longman III and Peter Enns; Downers Grove, IL; Nottingham, England: IVP Academic; Inter-Varsity Press, 2008), 112.​

​

The links down the right side of the above page will flesh out the OT understanding of the Divine Council in great depth.

I have watched a couple of the Horvath videos and tried to follow this thread. I am amazed the moderators have allowed it to continue. I have a very strong feeling that if Runner or others I could name had started a thread to promote Alan Horvath and his theories, the moderators would have quickly pulled the plug with a warning that "This is the Bible Study forum. It is not a place for the promotion of self-styled gurus and fringe theories."

This thread shows that the servant Israel was not given to understand the message they were entrusted to deliver. Their idea of "pantheon" was clearly wrong; God has clearly been a Trinity, eternally.

 

[Truthfrees]

Historically, the Nation of Israel lived in the land of Israel. A bit later than when they lived as slaves in Egypt, which was a bit later than the time period you refer to.

Israel lived in Israel when Babylon conquered them, and when Rome conquered them. This is historical fact.

There was never a Nation called Palestine, which is apparently what you're arguing?The Ottoman empire / caliphate is invading Europe by stealth, and would like to invade Israel by the same means. This is the device of the devil, which we are not to be ignorant of. Don't be a part of that!

amen - well said

 

[Razeontherock]

Satan's lies and deceptions, what are they? The simplest of lessons to avoid the traps of Satan are found right there in the first couple chapters of the book of Genesis, the serpent whispering from the dust of the earth: YOU WILL NOT DIE.

There is really only one covenant as the OP might suggest, but it is not readily found in either of the testaments, except for a few passages, but it was the commandment given to His Son. Of All the trees in the garden you may freely eat, but the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of, for in the day you shall eat thereof, you shall surely die. The Lord God Almighty, the creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all that is therein said if you partake of the fruit of knowledge, YOU SHALL DIE; But the lie of Satan is YOU WILL NOT DIE, so he offers you a covering to hide from the truth. So what are lies and what is truth?

The truth is Adam was created a Son of God, perfect in all his ways to walk before the Lord in Faith all the days of his life. That was his covenant with the Lord when he walked and talked with Lord in the cool of the morning as the mist of the morning dew lays upon the tender herb; And he was given but the one commandment. The tree of Life is yours and all that be in the garden, only Do Not eat the fruit of the tree of Knowledge.

Adam was created, perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him. Why was iniquity found in him? Because he partook of the fruit of the knowledge of evil. Adam was created in the image of God, a Son of God to walk according according to Faith. Adam was not created to walk with the knowledge sin, Adam took that knowledge for himself. This is the covenant the Christ came to restore: To walk with the Spirit of the Lord according to Faith as He created you, not according to the knowledge of the Law.

But from the dust of the earth the serpent doth whisper, you are saved, why you shall not die... As the clay vessel cries out the to the potter, why have you made me such? Take this sin from me, for I am not a sinner. But God created you and formed you in His image. He did not create you with the knowledge of sin.

But what is lost to some is the salvation of Christ, for they confuse the salvation through Christ with those who have been redeemed from under the LAW and the KNOWLEDGE of SIN by Christ. For as in Adam shall ALL men DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL be made ALIVE. This is the covenant that Christ restored, the one lost when Adam broke Faith and then hid himself from DEATH. Jesus was Faithful to DEATH, even the death of the Cross, to show the Power of God in restoring life from the dead.

But the author of this OP continues to get caught up in the covenant made with Moses and glories in the laws of that covenant. By his words he tells you correctly that both the old testament and the new testament should not be ignored, for they are not just laws, but they are full of instruction. In this I would tell you the author of the OP is correct, for they are full of instruction in righteousness. But then the author of the OP in saying that, speaks from both sides of his mouth, for out of one side he say it is not about Laws, but then out of the other goes on to glory in a RENEWED 10 Commandments.



Jesus didn't teach you a renewal of the ten commandments in the sermon on the mount, he delivered to you the words to complete in you the ministration of Death that was first given to Moses. When the ministration of Death is complete in you, then shall you find your way back to the tree of Life where you learn of the Glory of the Lord. But the lies the serpent would tell would cause you to glory in the knowledge of a commandment and the self righteousness that come by upholding a law. But the knowledge of the Glory of the Lord and the Righteousness that comes by Faith is hidden from them by the very covering of blood offered to them according to the LAW and the fruit of Knowledge of sin and repentance.

But Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. We are created and formed in the image of Christ. But if we do as the OP suggests and appreciate all that the scripture has to offer without the fear of the LAW, then we might find God expressing a few of his very own characteristics. For instance, God is a Jealous God. Is Jealousy a sin? God Hates, for it is written Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I Hated. God can be vengeful, for I am a vengeful God, visiting the iniquities upon them that hate me.... God has repented himself of the evil he thought to do unto man.

These are things we all know all to well within us. We love those who love us, and hate those we despise. We are full of jealousy and rage. But these things are natural within us, as we were created in Gods image. What we have lost with all the knowledge of sin and evil, is the ability to show the same characteristics of compassion and mercy that Christ has demonstrated for you by walking Faithfully to DEATH, even the death of the cross.

You have heard it said an eye for an eye. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, love your enemy. Do good to those who despitefully use you. If someone should steal your cloak, then GIVE THEM your coat also....... Tell me, can you find that and glorify that in the 10 commandemts?

The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
You have the right Spirit here, but there are some mistakes too. While I'd rather get to the most significant first, let me start at the beginning instead.

Adam and Eve (A&E) were NOT made perfect, let alone "perfect in all their ways." They were made GOOD. We haven't yet been made perfect, and only one of our species has: Jesus. And even He, born God, had to be made perfect by His sufferings.

You rightly discern God made a Covenant with A&E. There are actually 7 different Covenants, and what this thread focuses on is not the distinction between them but their continuous nature. The Bible overall tells us the story of God's redemption, His plan of Salvation, for us. One way this is revealed is as a river. We first see that river in the garden of Eden, and we last see it in Revelation. We see it with Jesus and the woman at the well, where He teaches us ALL that we can have rivers of living water, and indeed we all do! This river shows up in lots of other places too, these are just some major highlights.

It's the same river.

Let's not look for ways to subdivide the same river into my little bit over here, vs. somebody else's little bit over there. A river constantly changes, because the water constantly flows; yet it remains the same river.

Whitewater experts know better than to fight a river, they realize they're along for the ride. All these analogies have value to us, and have application in this thread too.

You mention the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (ToK) That's a long phrase, and we can want to abbreviate it. Let's not make the mistake of thinking it's "the tree of knowledge," as that false idea throws some off, and militant atheists use that to do satan's bidding. This word "knowledge" here refers to experience. A&E had no experiential knowledge of evil before they ate from the ToK, but they had been immersed in and surrounded by experiential knowledge of good all the days of their lives; whether that was an afternoon or several millennium we aren't told. Adam certainly understood the difference between good and evil before he ate, and while he hadn't experienced death to "know" it first-hand, (neither have we) he had been warned by God, whom he walked with.

So you and Chopper are both correct! The entire Bible tells us about God restoring to us the relationship God intended to have; not merely with A&E, but with "whosever will." And one day it will not only be simple, but the ToK won't even be a problem!

Rather than going back, where A&E were merely "good," this river brings us forward to the time when we'll be perfect, incorruptible, and immortal. What we'll be isn't clear yet, but we know we'll be like Jesus!

What Chopper's saying in this thread is that along the way God taught us more than He did A&E, the Covenant He made with Abram was progressive, and the law of Moses was never intended to give us life. Chopper is NOT saying the "renewed Covenant" revives the law, nor is he saying it places us back under its curse. Some have been confused about that. He's saying we all inherit "the Blessing of Abraham," which the NT teaches us is what God is up to. Paul saw that, and wrote about it in various ways, hoping we might get it. We each get it in our own way, so let's not use it as a means of strife.

There's good stuff here to share ...

 

[Razeontherock]

probably the reason why the book of Matthew is the only NT book they have found in Hebrew so far is because in 326 constantine the emperor of rome became a christian of sorts and mandated christianity as the world wide universal religion (as far as rome controlled the world)

constantine did several things but 2 of them are:
1. he outlawed anything jewish - scrolls - sacred items - hebrew language - synagogues - jewish style christian gatherings - etc - under penalty of death - causing the non-jewish christians to distance themselves from anything jewish in an attempt to stay alive

many jews (christian and non-christian) were killed and many things jewish were destroyed because the jewish christians could not distance themselves from being jewish

2. he incorporated pagan rituals and gods into the christian holy days and rituals - to give pagans and others reasons to easily embrace his new style of universal christianity - and to make sure christianity looked nothing like the christianity that had been existing due to the jewish christians worshipping with the non-jewish christians

these 2 things created a christianity and a nt interpretation and translation devoid of ot wisdom and connection

but today God is restoring this wisdom and even some of the hebrew writings to the body of Christ so that we can enjoy more of the truth that has been hard to find

Did Constantine do away with the Jewishness of Christianity, intentionally making it "look" different than it ever had before? This deserves it's own thread, to really develop that idea.

While I've never considered this idea, I would posit that including Revelation in the Canon insured such a goal could never be accomplished. Revelation preserves the Jewishness of Christianity, tying in to the OT so strongly that we can't really understand Revelation without having a thorough grasp on the OT.

Constantine's motive here is worth pursuing!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Good post.
Thank you.
However: The NT is written in Koine Greek, not Hebrew of English.
The English words "new covenant" are used 9 times.
In eight of those, the word "new" is the translation of the Greek word; καινός (kainos).
(Mat 26:28; Mar 14:24, Luk 22:20; 1Cor 11:25; 2Cor 3:6; Heb 8:8; 8:13; 9:15)

The meaning of "kainos" is "new"
With respect to form, it means: recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
With respect to substance it means: of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

The other word translated "new" one time is: νέος (neos). (Heb 12:24)
It means "new."

And it seems to me that the key difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is the promised outcome.
Under the Old, if one kept the requirements of the covenant (as best as one could) then the "rewards" were:
Deu 30:16b ...you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess.
Under the New, if one kept the requirements of the covenant (as best as one could) then the "rewards" were:
Jhn 3:16b whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life and Jhn 5:28b-29 all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The rewards of the Old Covenant had to do with life in this world while the rewards of the New Covenant have to do with life after the resurrection rather than in this life. In fact, Christ told his followers that in this life they would suffer because they followed Him. (Jhn 15:20; 16:33)

My two kopecks

iakov the fool

I'm sorry to see you do this Jim. Drawing any passage out of it's context is dangerous and in this context the misapplication is horrid. This passage does not promise life in this world and avoidance of the first death. it is illustrative of the salvation promised and then performed in Matt. 27:fifty through fifty-three.


These are the least preached and/or the least taught verses in the Bible today and nothing is sadder. This is the Second resurection Yashuah ha'mashiah performed in the New Testament and I would submit, it is likeliest the third in all of scripture. The first would be when Jonah was spit out of the belly of the ¿Groper? When Mortal man breathe in any kind of water, he is dead shortly afterward is dead except that liquid is vacated immediately and yet when the fish regurgitated him, through Yashuah, John 1:1-3, he, alive, went to perform the ministry he had been assigned.

The second Resurrection was a single man also. When Yashuah called his name, instructing, Lazarus to come out of the Tomb, in his Burial Wrappings, anointed with oils and spices, I see him struggling but hopping out the entrance of that grave, completing the second resurrection.

These, I feel, were performed for the Old Testament Saints and the Renewed Testament Saints to use to build their Faith and use as a foundation for their Faith.

If we, just, remember the scriptures, as per John 1:1-3, are inspired/authored by Jesus, for te glory of the Father to instruct men onto salvation, the scriptures will interpret themselves through the Holy Ghost, Ruach.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Who were the people God was talking to in the following verses-?

(Mal 3:5 KJV) And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

(Jer 14:8 KJV) O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

(Ezek 14:7 KJV) For every one of the house of Israel, or of thestranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

(Deu 1:16 KJV) And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

(Deu 10:19 KJV) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Deu 24:19 KJV) When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

(Deu 24:20 KJV) When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Deu 24:21 KJV) When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

(Jer 7:6 KJV) If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:

(Jer 22:3 KJV) Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

(Ezek 22:7 KJV) In thee have they set light by father and mother: in the midst of thee have they dealt by oppression with the stranger: in thee have they vexed the fatherless and the widow.

(Zec 7:10 KJV) And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

(Exo 22:21 KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Exo 23:9 KJV) Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

(Lev 19:34 KJV) But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

(Lev 25:35 KJV) And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be astranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Again I ask, who was the Lord talking too?

Miss, I'll bet that Chopper is as sorry as I am to see you go to the silly and energy wasting children's Useless question game. Both of us are Senior Teachers that expect you, never to believe nor to follow either of us. Rather we do expect you EZ and all others to follow the instruction found in the scriptures concerning Study to Know What the Scriptures say About Knowledge and Study.

Never express an opinion, rather, be like the Berians and look up the addresses, study, meditate with Prayer before reading and after concluding. Then, please feel free to intelligently and constrctively comment on what thev Holy
swpirit says to you, please.

 

[JLB]

They brought with them a worldview from paganism with reference to the office of the priest/bishop. In the pagan world, the priest was the professional one went to in order to deal with a religious issue. They brought that view with them. It was contrary to the Christian teaching of a "priesthood of believers" in which every believer had the authority to go directly to God whereas, in the pagan world, only the professional priest/priestess was able to intercede with the gods on someone's behalf. That developed into the artificial divide between clergy and laity.

Yes. The Nicolatians.