• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

On Being Born Again

  • Thread starter Thread starter lou11
  • Start date Start date
L

lou11

Guest
Many Christians, and even non-Christians, claim to be born again. But what does this really mean? As a person that believes to be born again, I can relate my experience with this phenomenon and how it has affected me. I started out as a thoroughgoing skeptic, thinking that anyone that believed the Bible to be literally true was either an idiot or in some way mentally deranged. I rested in the assurance that the scientific community had validated evolution as the best explanation for how we got here and subsequently developed into what we are. At the wise old age of thirteen or fourteen I rejected the Christianity my mother taught me. I concluded at that time that, since there were so many variants of the faith, they must all be wrong. I continued in this mindset through college and as an engineer to the age of forty-two when I was challenged by some individuals regarding the validity of evolution as a theory of beginnings. I spent a year or more reading and studying the case against evolution and was forced to conclude that it fell far short of explaining anything. I realized that the incredibly complex world we live in could never have come about accidentally. It was designed by a designer whose qualifications could only be met by the kind of person the Bible speaks of as God.

That put me back to ground zero, back where I was when I rejected the God concept. I thought, could I have been wrong all these years? I didn’t want to be wrong; no one wants to divest himself from the kind of investment in error I had made and built on for two decades. But what could I do? I looked at the world around me, I looked at my own being, and I could not find any explanation other than that the Bible was true. I spent much time thinking about why this conclusion was so obvious to me and yet did not convince my friends and work associates. The answer to that question did not gel until several years later when Christ’s words to Nicodemus finally registered. He said, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.†What it took me so long to realize was that this didn’t just mean this man couldn’t enter into the kingdom of God but that he also literally couldn’t see it. The entire spiritual realm is invisible to anyone that hasn’t been born again, or as Christ said “born of the Spirit.†He cannot bring himself to consider even the possibility of a spiritual existence. His mind won’t go there. It is only after one has been born of the Spirit, when the Spirit of God indwells the person, that he can rationally consider God as an actual living person. My friends and associates really tried to see my point of view but it never made any sense to them. They were much more comfortable with the idea that, even though they couldn’t explain the physical reality around them, one day it would be explained and they were certain that that explanation would not include God or any sort of spiritual beings. This, even though with any depth of thought it is obvious that this world and everything in it could not only not have come into being accidentally but must have originated from outside of itself. Machines cannot create themselves, nor could the physical reality have arisen out of itself. Something like a spiritual realm must exist for the existence of the physical to make any kind of sense. But as Christ said, we cannot see into that realm until we’ve been born again.

How then does one become born again? The generally accepted view is that it happens after the person accepts Christ and invites him into his heart. But how can he accept Christ if he can’t even see or begin to allow the existence of the God of the Bible? He cannot do so rationally and honestly. He must first be born again and then, having seen the truth of God’s kingdom, he can respond with love, gratitude and submission to Christ as his Lord and Master. This is what the Bible teaches: Christ chooses us; we do not choose Him. We love Him because He first loved us. Unfortunately, this does not sit well with too many professing Christians. They don’t like the idea of salvation being totally of grace. They want to believe either with ancient Pelagius that man can save himself or with Arminius’ compromise position that, while man may not be able to save himself, neither can God save him without his permission. But Paul tells us in Ephesians 2 that we are saved by grace through faith and that even that faith is not of ourselves but is the gift of God. That gift comes in the form of God Himself, God the Holy Spirit coming to live within each of His chosen men and women. The free offer of the Gospel, as proclaimed in John 3:16, declares that everyone that believes has eternal life. But the only ones that truly believe are those that God has chosen and caused to be born again.

In the Garden after the Fall we saw the reverse process, that of spiritual death, take place. As Eve told the Serpent, God said that the day they eat of the forbidden fruit they would surely die. Well they did eat but continued to live and have children for many years afterward. Did God speak falsely as the Serpent claimed? No, of course not, they did die that day but they died spiritually, not physically. And ever since then, every baby born, almost without exception, is born without the Holy Spirit and, as Christ said, is unable to see the kingdom of God. But because of Christ’s intercessory atonement, millions have been and are being born again today. We are told that the final number will be myriads upon myriads and, we are not told so, but even Adam and Eve may have also been born again.

Do you believe, believe in your heart of hearts, that the Bible is true, that God sent His Son to die in your place. If so, you have been born again. God has blessed you with the greatest gift anyone could ever receive. Thank Him for giving you the gift of faith. If you don’t believe, don’t despair; Christ has promised that he will never turn away anyone that comes to him in sincerity and in truth. He tells us that if you seek him with all your heart, you will surely find him. But then, you wouldn’t have even begun to seek him unless you had already been born again. That may seem somewhat convoluted but it really isn’t when you accept the fact that God is always in total control of everything.
 
What exactly did evolution fail to explain for you ? The origin of life and the universe ? Because that was never within the purview of evolution anyway.

You look at the world and see God, I look at the world and simply see the world. Has the universe always been here, or did it suddenly burst into existence ? I don't know the answer, and I think its a little presumptuous of anyone to think that they do given how very little we know.
 
Shamwow,

As I said, if you haven't been born again all you can see is the world. God and the spiritual realm are not within your sphere of vision. I see God because He has opened my eyes to His truth. The idea that this highly complex universe came into existence through an extremely long sequence of fortuitous accidents without any intelligence involved is utterly ridiculous. Evolutionists and Big Bang believers basically assert that matter, inert unintelligent matter is eternal. Creationists take the position that intelligent spirit, God, is eternal, a much more satisfying premise. It's eternal intelligence vs eternal ignorance. The idea of something arising out of an original nothingness is even more ridiculous.
 
That was a great OP. Thank you.
Why is it difficult to fathom a world created by God where we humans evolved to being what we are today by way of natural selection?
There is a great book that opened my eyes in many ways on the subject of coexisting dimensions. It is "The Holographic Universe." It reminded me of how God can make all things possible and that everything that "exists" is not always evident. It takes faith and strength to live for His glory. This concept is not easily grasped by some-even those who call themselves intellects.
 
Yeah I agree Lou - a good op.

Can I clarify your position? Do you believe because you are born again or are you born again because you believe?
 
I think the believing comes first. If you do not accept Christ and open your belief system then you can not receive him and be born again.
 
Our natural tendency is to think that we believe first but that's not what the Bible tells us. It says we were dead in trespasses and sin and God made us alive (spiritually). This is the born again experience. He then gave us the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8). Belief is a result of the faith and the new birth God gave us, hence the new birth must precede faith. We don't see this; all we know is that we now believe what the Bible says.

Fembot,

The basic problem with any form of theistic evolution other than literal six day creation is that it tears the whole Bible to shreds. If we can make the extremely straightforward statements of the Genesis account give us theistic evolution, we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say everywhere else. No more virgin birth, no more miracles, no more resurrection, etc. The end result of that process is atheism, pure and simple.
 
The basic problem with any form of theistic evolution other than literal six day creation is that it tears the whole Bible to shreds. If we can make the extremely straightforward statements of the Genesis account give us theistic evolution, we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to say everywhere else. No more virgin birth, no more miracles, no more resurrection, etc. The end result of that process is atheism, pure and simple.

You're not grasping what I said. I did not say we should tear the Bible to shreds.

I believe that there are scientific explanations for most occurrences in the Bible.

It is possible to have Genesis occur as well as natural selection. When Noah started a new world, was it not free of creatures that once existed? Could that not be a form of "natural selection?"
What I'm getting at is that creation and evolution doesn't have to be black and white. The Bible makes it possible to have both occur.

God created the world and everything in it. If you believe this and you are aware that we can modify genes, then why is it impossible for God to have modified humans throughout time?
If we can create an organism in a petri dish that changes it's appearance through a series of developments, WHY can't God do the same with us?


Young earth creation science advocates have always argued that a belief in evolution is denial of the Genesis account of fiat (from nothing) creation. They believe that God said it, and poof!, there it was. For the purposes of this discussion, lets look at Day Three, Five, and Six of creation. First, here is the Day Three passage
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:11-12, KJV)
Notice that God did not say, "Let there be grass," and there was grass. God told the land to produce the vegetation! It was the land doing the producing, not God. God told the earth to bring forth grass, and in verse 12, "the earth brought forth grass..." In essence, God let the land "do its thing" on its own. Instead of fiat, out of nothing creation, the text for Genesis actually supports evolution better! The same is also true of Day Five...
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:20-21, KJV)
In this passage where God creates ocean life, He tells the ocean to bring forth the creatures. He does not say, "Let there be whales;" or "let there be sharks." Verse 21 shows the result, that "God created great whales." Verse 20 gives the process God used to create..."Let the waters bring forth..." Again, this seems to support evolution better than fiat, out of nothing creation.
...

Young earth creationists will also argue that the kinds reproduce after their own kind, thus eliminating the possibility of their evolving into other kinds. In the verses above, God created them according to their kind. This does not address reproduction, which could lead to evolving creatures. The only verse addressing reproduction is Genesis 1:22:
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Notice in this verse, there is no "kind" mentioned. They are not instructed to multiply "according to their kind."
For plants, the term "after his kind" is used.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:11-12, KJV)
Here we see the plants bringing forth fruit after its kind. Of course, an apple tree produces apples, an orange tree produces oranges, and so on. What is missing here? There is no command to "reproduce and fill the earth." Trees are not instructed to reproduce after their kind." There is nothing here that argues against evolution!

http://www.answersincreation.org/evolution_bible.htm
 
Fembot said:
What I'm getting at is that creation and evolution doesn't have to be black and white. The Bible makes it possible to have both occur.

This is not true. It is not the Bible itself that does so; it is the way one interprets the Bible that makes it possible. In order to convert the 24 hour days and nights of Genesis 1 into long periods of time, or as some do to a framework hypothesis, one must apply a principle of hermeneutics that permits one to do so. If that same principle of Biblical interpretation is applied to the remainder of Scripture, the Bible can be made to say whatever that interpreter wants it to say. This, in fact, is what the liberal theologians that have done away with miracles, the virgin birth, etc. have done. They have torn the Bible to shreds.
 
That's your opinion. Mine is that God created the world and everything in it, including creatures that have evolved and are STILL evolving.
 
lou11 said:
Our natural tendency is to think that we believe first but that's not what the Bible tells us. It says we were dead in trespasses and sin and God made us alive (spiritually). This is the born again experience. He then gave us the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8). Belief is a result of the faith and the new birth God gave us, hence the new birth must precede faith. We don't see this; all we know is that we now believe what the Bible says.

Thanks Lou - and yes, not entirely, but very much along my own way of thinking. At what point in history then, would you say that man could be born again?
 
Shamwow said:
What exactly did evolution fail to explain for you ? The origin of life and the universe ? Because that was never within the purview of evolution anyway.

You look at the world and see God, I look at the world and simply see the world. Has the universe always been here, or did it suddenly burst into existence ? I don't know the answer, and I think its a little presumptuous of anyone to think that they do given how very little we know.

Shamwow, I think you just proved his point:

lou11 said:
He said, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.†What it took me so long to realize was that this didn’t just mean this man couldn’t enter into the kingdom of God but that he also literally couldn’t see it. The entire spiritual realm is invisible to anyone that hasn’t been born again, or as Christ said “born of the Spirit.†He cannot bring himself to consider even the possibility of a spiritual existence. His mind won’t go there. It is only after one has been born of the Spirit, when the Spirit of God indwells the person, that he can rationally consider God as an actual living person.
 
Mutzrein,

The Bible tells us that the names of all that will ever be born again were written in the Book of Life before the worlds were made (Eph. 1:4,5). There is no time limit given for salvation. Christ's sacrifice was as effectual for old testament believers as it is now.
 
Back
Top