Once Saved, Always Saved?

[francisdesales]

It proves that, sure. But that is now why He went to the cross. He went there as payment for our sins. He was the final sacrifice for sin.

It amazes me that, perhaps, you are not trolling, but that you REALLY don't think he paid for your sins.

I see Christ as my intercessor, the One Who asks, for my sake, that my sins be forgiven. The Father does so based upon that act of love on the cross. Being the Second Adam, that work is "enough" for everyone to be forgiven of sins.

I have just recently gotten through a long post on this subject, so I apologize if I might have seemed "vague" to you, but I would be remiss to explain this all over again in my first post. Thus, I summarized, touching on the KEY aspect of His work on the cross.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

That something was foretold does not mean that it was required to be done by THE PLANNER, God Himself.

Yeah, maybe He could just brush aside all the OT scriptures which testify of Him and then do it some other way.. it's pretty scary that you're actually going to dismiss the entire OT in order to hold on to your own view.

Christ died for our sins ACCORDING to the SCRIPTURES..

Can you tone down the rhetoric?

Can you.. we know what we're dealing with here.. the special ones in the one true church.. come on.. isn't that the bottom line here... you're in the one true church and what they say trumps everything, including the word of God as provided for us in the scriptures..

 

[francisdesales]

You would be surprised how often the work of the cross is presented as a judicial, legal, act. You are correct of course, it was an act of love.

Pizzaguy, you've asked several times what Christ accomplished on the cross, and the answer is, of course, the forgiveness of our sins and the means by which we are saved.

But, this doesn't necessarily mean that once Christ died, all are automatically saved. Nor does it mean that just because one confesses Christ at some point in their live, they will, no matter what the end of their life looks like, automatically go on to eternal life. This is why Paul exhorts us to test our confession.

This is why, in part, I am so against the whole "sinner's prayer" approach to the gospel...it leads too many to believe that "Hey, I prayed that prayer, I'm forgiven and I'm in!" Nowhere is this taught in the Word. Rather, all throughout the New Testament, we are exhorted to hold fast, to continue in what we have begun, to work out our salvation.

Agreed. Too often, the Work of Christ is presented as something done and finished - which leads to the mentality of it is "done and finished" with the new Christian, as well. Just put on the "Jesus blanket" and carry on with your life. If God is a God of love, this is a tremendous understatement to the reason why God became man.

He became one of us so that we may become like Him. As the Church Fathers (and Peter wrote), to become divinized, to take on the divine nature. God draws us into Himself, He is not just a "parasite". It saddens me how some Christians don't realize how wonderful Christianity is when we realize that Christ's work is more than just a legal act and reduce Christianity to something that happened 2000 years ago and all we need to do is make a one time theological statement of belief...

God wants us to have life and live it to the fullest. By becoming fully man, and that burden is light and joyful to those who come to know what love is.

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

However, the ENTIRE POINT OF CHRIST'S DEATH as it applies to US is to DRAW US INTO HIM. TO MAKE US HOLY.

You are indeed a frustrating person to talk to on the internet --- WHY oh WHY could you not have said that (in response to me) before?

While this would have been a GREAT response to my question about what Christ did on the cross (instead of your "motivation" statement), I still find it a BIT lacking. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but I don't think so - He saved us from our sins, he drew us to Him, but he also reconciled us to God, He paid the price for our sins.

Christ living in us conforms us to Him. We ARE INDEED an active participant in this work, a work that cannot take place without the Spirit, but an act that cannot take place without our cooperation, either.

Agreed.

It is not God 100%, man 0%. It is God 100%, man 100%. As part of the Body of Christ, as a cell of that Body, I indeed am "working out my salvation in fear and trembling" BECAUSE God is within me moving my will and desire... From this verse, it is obvious that BOTH God and man are at work here. And there is no effort to divide the labor, as you do.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I agree, 'cept I don't think it's 100%/100%.

You won't understand that until you understand that the work of Christ on the Cross was an act of LOVE. Not a legal act. And those who know something about love can understand that the lover desires to draw the beloved "into" himself - so when they do something, it is together. The beloved is not a passive bystander. The lover doesn't "measure" how much they bring to the table.

Regards

But none of us denies that it was an act of Love -but it was also an act of payment, a payment of sin that we can't pay.

I will admit that this "fear and trembling" thing is troublesome. I don't fear or tremble over my salvation - Christ died for me, I am unsure of what there is to "fear and tremble" over.

 

[handy]

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED...

Come on, nobody believes that.. nobody believes that there are none good but one, and that is God.. come on..

We're good... we can work with God for our salvation.. He can't do it alone... we need to help Him..

It really does come down to the simple fact that many DO NOT BELIEVE what God says.

Who is saying this, Eventide? Who is making the claim that God can't "do it" alone?

Believe in the Lord Jesus? Yes, I know the text. I also know the text that "even the demons believe".

We are saved through our belief, which comes by faith through grace, yes. But, is that it...? Believe once, say a sinner's prayer, then go back to the drugs, to the sex, to the unrighteousness, because we believe that Christ paid the price so we get a free pass?

No one is saying that either.

I'm sure we are all in agreement that the Bible does not teach that we can believe in Jesus, say a "sinner's prayer" and go out and take on a same-sex lover, rip off our bosses, rape, pillage and burn, and are saved.

Or, are we? Perhaps we'd better examine this a bit. Are we all in agreement that the Bible does not teach this?

Because if we are, then why are we arguing? If we all understand that a saving belief in Christ produces a person who is daily being conformed to the Spirit, what's the issue?

 

[Pizzaguy]

I see Christ as my intercessor, the One Who asks, for my sake, that my sins be forgiven. The Father does so based upon that act of love on the cross. Being the Second Adam, that work is "enough" for everyone to be forgiven of sins.

VERY HAPPY TO READ THAT FRANCIS! You are indeed my "brother"!

I have just recently gotten through a long post on this subject, so I apologize if I might have seemed "vague" to you, but I would be remiss to explain this all over again in my first post. Thus, I summarized, touching on the KEY aspect of His work on the cross.
Regards

I am ok with that, I am reminded of a post on another board where I did the same and it was mis-interpreted as obfuscation.

I apologize, you are not a troll and are stating what you really believe. I see that now.

STILL not sure I agree, in fact, I don't agree with some of your theology, but that is fine with both of us, I am sure.


Mark

 

[Pizzaguy]

Originally Posted by Eventide
Of course... unless the entire OT scriptures were a lie.. and not many Christians believe that. It was all foretold in countless stories before it ever came to pass, and it HAD TO BE FULFILLED precisely as God said that it would be or He would be a liar... and we all know that men are liars, not God.

That something was foretold does not mean that it was required to be done by THE PLANNER, God Himself.

Oh, Francis - I think Eventide won this one!

If He foretold it, and the Bible is supposed to be God's word, I dont think He'd "change His mind".

I don't believe he is calling you a liar, but just that MEN do LIE, but God does not!

 

[francisdesales]

Yeah, maybe He could just brush aside all the OT scriptures which testify of Him and then do it some other way.. it's pretty scary that you're actually going to dismiss the entire OT in order to hold on to your own view.

Christ died for our sins ACCORDING to the SCRIPTURES..

Again, in your rush to judge, you are not reading what I posted.

You have basically said that the Scriptures "forced" God to send Jesus to the Cross!!! Ridiculous.

The plan of man's salvation was "thought out" before creation. BEFORE the Scriptures were even written. Thus, the Bible doesn't hold God accountable to anything. The Scriptures point to God's already-made decision to perform the Drama at the Cross, that Supreme Act of Love for mankind.

Can you.. we know what we're dealing with here.. the special ones in the one true church.. come on.. isn't that the bottom line here... you're in the one true church and what they say trumps everything, including the word of God as provided for us in the scriptures..

Another "either/or" fallacy. "Only Roman Catholics are in the true Church" mentality, which I never stated. There is only One Church, it is Catholic - but Protestants who have been baptized are also part of that Catholic Church in a mysterious manner. Your membership to the "..." is inconsequential, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians about following Apollos or Paul or Cephas (or Luther or Calvin). There is only One Body, not many.

But that is off topic, I will only respond to that once.

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

(HANDY) You would be surprised how often the work of the cross is presented as a judicial, legal, act. You are correct of course, it was an act of love.

Pizzaguy, you've asked several times what Christ accomplished on the cross, and the answer is, of course, the forgiveness of our sins and the means by which we are saved.

But, this doesn't necessarily mean that once Christ died, all are automatically saved. Nor does it mean that just because one confesses Christ at some point in their live, they will, no matter what the end of their life looks like, automatically go on to eternal life. This is why Paul exhorts us to test our confession.

This is why, in part, I am so against the whole "sinner's prayer" approach to the gospel...it leads too many to believe that "Hey, I prayed that prayer, I'm forgiven and I'm in!" Nowhere is this taught in the Word. Rather, all throughout the New Testament, we are exhorted to hold fast, to continue in what we have begun, to work out our salvation.

I know it sure seems that way, but in every event I have presented it, or heard it presented, the reminder is given that "A changed heart means a changed life" - that is to say, we are expected to "go and sin no more". Now, of course, that is impossible. But I DO know that my taking of the Lord's name in vain stopped right away. And that I saw things differently right away.

 

[Eventide]

You are missing the entire point of the role of sanctification in the life of a Christian. I am sorry that you feel that you are as a pile of manure covered with snow, but this is not how God acts with those whom He loves. A lover would know this.

The bible teaches over and over again that we are to grow in Christ. We are exhorted CONSTANTLY in Scriptures to walk in Christ. WE are exhorted. NOT JESUS!!! Read the Bible more carefully. WHO EXACTLY is being COMMANDED to love? JESUS????

Please. This is Christianity 101. The entire point of Christ coming to us is to conform us to Him. Not to toss a throw rug over us and sneak into heaven, as if the Father was some dottering old man who couldn't tell that something unclean had entered heaven.

The command to die to self is a command to love. Clearly, you don't know what love is about. Love means dying to self, giving to the other completely of all that we are. The selfish live for themselves. Those who love die to self desires, giving for the sake of the beloved. Our example of this is Jesus Christ, who humbled Himself to become one of us, to serve, rather than to be served...



What is the purpose of sanctification, eventide???

Regards

The simplest way to answer this is to ask you this..

Are you good ?

Yes, No, you're not sure ?

 

[francisdesales]

You are indeed a frustrating person to talk to on the internet --- WHY oh WHY could you not have said that (in response to me) before?

While this would have been a GREAT response to my question about what Christ did on the cross (instead of your "motivation" statement), I still find it a BIT lacking. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but I don't think so - He saved us from our sins, he drew us to Him, but he also reconciled us to God, He paid the price for our sins.

Did you expect a half page post on the first response?

Actually, I find "Christ died for our sins" lacking, Mark, as a one sentence statement of Christ's work. It does not touch on something even more important - being conformed and made into the image of God. Certainly, the forgiveness of sins is the first step. However, from my recent reading and posting on this subject, I am firmly convinced that the Bible speaks of God in a different light than many people presume with the "bumper sticker" theology I often find.

Why did God become man? You say "for Christ to die on the cross for our sins". This is a secondary issue, because it overlooks that God does not DEMAND a sacrifice before He forgives sins. The teachings of Christ are clear on this - and He certainly would have known. He never speaks this way about His upcoming sacrifice. Jesus explains that the Father requires a repentant man.

There is no REPAYMENT MENTIONED, MARK!

The OT Minor Prophets are full of such statements. Thus, to narrow down Christ's work to the forgiveness of sins or to mention repayment is very incomplete, perhaps even inaccurate at some levels. There is a deeper and more profound reason behind the Son becoming man. My one sentence sums it up. From there, we can understand more about the Word of God.

But none of us denies that it was an act of Love -but it was also an act of payment, a payment of sin that we can't pay.

I disagree with you, and I would like to discuss this with you, since I think it dulls what Christianity actually is.

I will admit that this "fear and trembling" thing is troublesome. I don't fear or tremble over my salvation - Christ died for me, I am unsure of what there is to "fear and tremble" over.

I am relating what the Bible says. You'll have to look further into why the Bible says "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". Apparantly, salvation is not "done", for Paul is writing to Christians who have already been baptized - and yet, "work out your salvation...".

If I may, I would offer to you that salvation here means something more than that one moment where you gave your life to Christ.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Who is saying this, Eventide? Who is making the claim that God can't "do it" alone?

Those who are working with God for their salvation.. isn't it obvious ?

Believe in the Lord Jesus? Yes, I know the text. I also know the text that "even the demons believe".

So are you suggesting that the former isn't true because of the latter ?

We are saved through our belief, which comes by faith through grace, yes. But, is that it...? Believe once, say a sinner's prayer, then go back to the drugs, to the sex, to the unrighteousness, because we believe that Christ paid the price so we get a free pass?

No one is saying that either.

That's right, nobody is saying anything remotely close to that... God knows the heart and He alone knows repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. and Eph 1 tells us that this is precisely how we got saved.. that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel, and AFTER we believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption. That's when God baptized us into that one body by the same Spirit.. that's when we became members of the body of Christ.

I'm sure we are all in agreement that the Bible does not teach that we can believe in Jesus, say a "sinner's prayer" and go out and take on a same-sex lover, rip off our bosses, rape, pillage and burn, and are saved.

Or, are we? Perhaps we'd better examine this a bit. Are we all in agreement that the Bible does not teach this?

Again, you're the only one I see saying this.

Because if we are, then why are we arguing? If we all understand that a saving belief in Christ produces a person who is daily being conformed to the Spirit, what's the issue?

Because people believe that they are GOOD, that's the bottom line.. the bible says that there are NONE good but one, and that is God.. do you believe that or do you rationalize that away and then figure that you are working with God for your salvation..

Is it Christ AND you, or is it Christ in you..?

 

[francisdesales]

The simplest way to answer this is to ask you this..

Are you good ?

Yes, No, you're not sure ?

What is the role of sanctification in the life of a Christian?

Clearly, yours is not an answer to that question.

And this is the weak point of your "theology". It fails to take into account the ENTIRE POINT of being made holy, being sanctified...

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Again, in your rush to judge, you are not reading what I posted.

You have basically said that the Scriptures "forced" God to send Jesus to the Cross!!! Ridiculous.

Well, believe what you will.. if you think that God wrote it all down beforehand just for the fun of it then so be it.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.. end of story.

The plan of man's salvation was "thought out" before creation. BEFORE the Scriptures were even written. Thus, the Bible doesn't hold God accountable to anything. The Scriptures point to God's already-made decision to perform the Drama at the Cross, that Supreme Act of Love for mankind.

And you're saying that the OT meant nothing..? It didn't hold God accountable to His own word ?

 

[Eventide]

What is the role of sanctification in the life of a Christian?

Clearly, yours is not an answer to that question.

And this is the weak point of your "theology". It fails to take into account the ENTIRE POINT of being made holy, being sanctified...

Regards

It's obvious that you can't answer the simplest of questions here and for painfully obvious reasons.. you think and believe that you're good.. and that's the bottom line for those who believe that they're working with God for their salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

...

Mark,

If you are interested in discussing the Theory of Atonement, I spoke on this last month, here is the pertinent thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/thereoy-atonement-33115/

Perhaps it might explain what i am saying without me having to retype it.

Regards

 

[Drew]

i wonder if the non-osas side,will puff their chest in heaven and say to the those who did less miracles and say look at me i'm a better christian then you.

Have you actaully read - I mean actually read the posts? If you had read the posts - mine at least - you would know that this critique cannot be levelled at the model for "salvation" that I am presenting.

Please read the posts carefully before commenting.

if works get you in then why the need for the cross.?

Fair question. But you must understand the following: nothing I have posted can be understood as denying the importance of the cross, except to the extent that you are, of course, reading my words and applying them to your model.

The cross is, of course, central. It is only by being "cleansed" from sin as a result of Jesus' substitutionary death that we are enabled to begin the "race". And, yes, Paul means what he says - eternal life goes to those who "persist in doing good".

But Paul also says that only those with the free grace gift of forgiveness of sin, via the work of Jesus on the cross, and with the Holy Spirit, can ever meet the "works" criteria that are applied at the Romans 2:6-7 judgement.

 

[francisdesales]

Well, believe what you will.. if you think that God wrote it all down beforehand just for the fun of it then so be it.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.. end of story.

I believe what the Bible says about this very thing.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians, chapter one and chapter 3, that God has revealed His plan to the Apostles in the fullness of time. THIS PLAN was not forced upon God by the Bible.

"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:" EPH 3:11

The Bible is not eternal. There was a time it did not exist.

Oh, aren't you the guy who confuses the Bible with God? Perhaps that might explain your confusion. The Bible is not God... Get over it.

God is not bound by the Bible, HE INSPIRED IT, not the other way around. God had a mysterious plan for all time, and then began to reveal it, as RELATED by the Bible (not as commanded by the Bible).

And you're saying that the OT meant nothing..? It didn't hold God accountable to His own word ?

You got it backwards. God's plan works, and then men are LATER inspired to write. God already knew that He would send a Savior to die on the cross before any of the Bible was even written. From the beginning of time, the Church has been planned, the Body of Christ. The bible didn't form God's plan, it merely relates what God had already planned and done.

Regards

 

[handy]

I know it sure seems that way, but in every event I have presented it, or heard it presented, the reminder is given that "A changed heart means a changed life" - that is to say, we are expected to "go and sin no more". Now, of course, that is impossible. But I DO know that my taking of the Lord's name in vain stopped right away. And that I saw things differently right away.

"A changed heart means a changed life." Right. We are in agreement!

And, what if one starts on the pathway of change, then after a few months, or many years later, ceases to remain on that pathway?

This is what is at the heart of the OSAS debate. The fact that we all know that some believe in the Lord, have the faith, grow in grace, show forth fruit...then something happens and they fall away. It happens. The Scriptures tell us that it is going to happen with some. The Scriptures exhort us to remain on the path so that it doesn't happen to us. The Scriptures warn us not to become complacent. Even Paul the Apostle stated that he had not obtained it, but he pressed on so that he could lay hold that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. What was it that Christ "laid hold" of Paul for...salvation, resurrection. But, Paul hadn't obtained it when he wrote to the Philippians, he recognized that he still needed to press on.

To a degree I do believe in preservation of the Saints. Not OSAS, I really dislike that term, but I do believe that, although we can lose salvation, we won't if we heed the many warnings and exhortations in the Scriptures and continue to press on. Part of God's preservation of His Saints are those very warnings and exhortations. I dislike theology that comes along and dismisses what God clearly warns us to heed with a false comfort of "Once you're saved, you are ALWAYS saved" a concept that really isn't taught in the Scriptures.

 

[Drew]

I think that this is the bottom line is this kind of debate.. that people actually think and believe that THEY are good... because how in the world could your good works save you if you're not good ?

I am not entirely sure I understand the point of this statement.

Listen - Paul says what he says in Romans 2:6-7: eternal life is awarded based on behaviour. But if, repeat if, you are implying that those of us who actually take Paul at his word think that we are "good", then that is simply not what we are saying.

Paul is clear - it is the Holy Spirit that is the "engine", driving power, that creates the "good works" that will ultimately enable final salvation. Remember these words from Romans 8:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

So it is entirely Biblical to expect that the Christian will evolve into a more Christlike state as they proceed through life. So it should be no surprise that the true disciple of Jesus will indeed "persist in doing good" and get eternal life on that basis.