Bible Study Once saved always saved?

[Windozer]

The doctrine of OSAS never make sense. Its proponents cannot and will not convince me. I will never preach OSAS to anyone!!!!!!!!

First off I am not interested in convincing anyone.

But I have some questions for some of you.

If you believe that Jesus did not die to save you from all of your sins both past and future. Tell me just how many of your sins were in the past when he went to the cross for you?

And second: Why would you want me to trust someone who could not save me from all of my sins?

Romans 5:18 NIV.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

And here is my assurance.

Romans 8:1 NIV.
[ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [ Some later manuscripts Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit,]

So live in Christ Jesus and don't sweat the rest. My God needs to be that big. I could not trust one who could not provide what he has promised. That too would be insanity.

John 10:25-29 NIV
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Solo]

I might as well grab what I placed on the other thread of the same topic and post it here too.

Two questions.

1. Does the OSAS philosophy mean that one can't possibly reject the Holy Spirit even if a former Christian should later choose to follow a nonChristian religion? People DO do this, by the way!

2. Where is the doctrine of OSAS found in the Bible? Or, is this a relatively recent frame of thought popularized by the lazy modern-day church that is 'ho-hum' about obedience to God anyway?

Do you ever walk in the flesh and fulfill the lusts of the flesh? If you do, then you reject the Holy Spirit. It is a good thing that the Holy Spirit does not reject you.

Jesus explains salvation very clear in John 3, and it defines that one who enters the kingdom of God will be born of the flesh, and be born of the Spirit. I do not know one single person that can be unborn of the flesh, and being born of God himself is so much more secure, that no one can be unborn of the Spirit either.

 

[Asaph]

The doctrine of OSAS never make sense. Its proponents cannot and will not convince me. I will never preach OSAS to anyone!!!!!!!!

First off I am not interested in convincing anyone.

But I have some questions for some of you.

If you believe that Jesus did not die to save you from all of your sins both past and future. Tell me just how many of your sins were in the past when he went to the cross for you?

And second: Why would you want me to trust someone who could not save me from all of my sins?

Romans 5:18 NIV.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

And here is my assurance.

[quote:1e748]Romans 8:1 NIV.
[ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [ Some later manuscripts Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit,]

So live in Christ Jesus and don't sweet the rest. My God needs to be that big. I could not trust one who could not provide what he has promised. That too would be insanity.

John 10:25-29 NIV
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

[/quote:1e748]

Amen. Scriptures, what a novel idea! :-D

Speaking of scriptures, I've been reading them for years and I have never come across even one that says God gave humans the "gift" of free will. Not one scripture.

Do we have freewill? Of course we do, but it is not a "gift" from God. It is merely a byproduct of intelligence. It would be a mistake to set up freewill, or the intelligence that produced it, as an idol in one's heart. God has plenty to say about idolitry, and none of it is good. :o

 

[Windozer]

We are not saved if we are not following Him. People want to make sure their salvation because they are feeling insecure about it.

I need to be secure about my salvation so that I can move beyond it to the things the Lord has planed for my life. We need to be more than clean empty pots that may be nice to look at.

 

[homewardbound]

Well for me it's all about 'grace'. I'm dogmatic about believing and living in the grace of God. And it's more about believing in the power of God to keep his children safe. It's important for me because I lived the 'other' life where I felt that I could lose my salvation at every turn like it was a bunch of keys or something. I lived my life believing I was going to hell because I was imperfect and couldn't live up to God's expectations perfectly all the time. One day I realised that I was not under grace. And that it was Christ that should be living and not me. When I gave up and rested in Christ - it was then that I realised that Christ's righteousness was what was being counted as my own and it's perfect and will forever be perfect. So now I rely on my faith in Christ's righteousness for my salvation - and I KNOW that Christ could never 'fall away' so I'm kept safe and 'hid' in Him.

I would like to think all of us here are dogmatic about living in God's grace. And I firmly believe God has the power to keep us safe AS LONG AS WE CHOOSE TO REMAIN IN CHRIST. You see, I'm assured of my salvation because in spite of the fact that I am imperfect, I fail miserably every day, and fall far short of what God would have me be, I place my hope and trust in Christ...every single day. It's all about the walk...the ongoing relationship with my Lord and Savior. Where I differ from OSAS is that I believe it is possible for people to consciously end that relationship, to halt their walk with God. Many OSAS proponents believe it's impossible for that to happen.

 

[Windozer]

Galatians 5:18 NIV.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Hebrews 10:17 NIV
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

 

[Khristeeanos]

Then you misunderstand the theology then.

I spent some time believing OSAS, so I know very much about the theology. Plus, I dedicated over a year to studying the doctrine, making a 40 + page study booklet on it to document my findings.

There is no licence to sin and anyone that says that the OSAS gives one licence to sin, either doesn't understand the theology or is NOT a true Christian anyway.

Tell that to Charles Stanley. Go get his book "eternal security: can you be sure" and find out that he preaches that one can "live like the devil" in depraved sin for decades and remain a Christian.

I suggest you find out where the OSAS believer stands when it comes to sin...I can assure you that it's the same as you. Or are you afraid to do that?

Please believe me. I know what OSAS is and what it teaches. I was a OSAS believer!

There are three types of OSAS.

• One says that God takes away our freewill and causes us to walk in His ways and therefore preserves us in the faith.
  [/*:m:6bb1b]
• Another says that if you don't preservere until the end, that proves you were never saved.
  [/*:m:6bb1b]
• The third says you are saved no matter what happens. You can be a homosexual child-molester and murderer and remain saved.[/*:m:6bb1b]

I would be more willing to accept the full Calvinistic "P" before I would believe the last two. :wink:

 

[Solo]

Most misunderstand the security that a believer has in the work of Jesus Christ.

Those that are born of God as Jesus taught in John 3 are born again of the Spirit of God, and have a new creature that cannot sin as a portion of their unredeemed being. A believer can now decide to walk in the flesh and be carnal, or to walk in the Spirit and be Godly. The flesh will always be carnal and sold under sin until the day that Jesus returns at which time the flesh will put on immortality and incorruption. Until then it is mortal and corrupt.

The born again portion of a believer is sin free and will be united with the new body at Jesus' coming, and will always be with Jesus from the born again period on.

What part of this can a believer disagree with and why?

 

[Georges]

oops....I just realized....I created the poll and hadn't voted yet.....

Continually saved......of course......!


Yippee.. :bday: ...Continually saved has a whopping 1 vote for.....

 

[Khristeeanos]

Most misunderstand the security that a believer has in the work of Jesus Christ.

Those that are born of God as Jesus taught in John 3 are born again of the Spirit of God, and have a new creature that cannot sin as a portion of their unredeemed being. A believer can now decide to walk in the flesh and be carnal, or to walk in the Spirit and be Godly. The flesh will always be carnal and sold under sin until the day that Jesus returns at which time the flesh will put on immortality and incorruption. Until then it is mortal and corrupt.

The born again portion of a believer is sin free and will be united with the new body at Jesus' coming, and will always be with Jesus from the born again period on.

This view of OSAS is the definition of term 3 listed directly above Solo's post.

Hey Michael, how about we discuss the topic of holiness and is it possible in the life of a believer?

 

[Geo]

Good idea,

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:22

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse
ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness
in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

We have to cleanse ourselves by the Spirit, from our flesh and human spirit,
not to save ourself by works, but because we are saved and now have to do
our part of the work unto perfection of holiness. If we do nothing it will be like
receiving an invitation, we respond and make an oral commitment to come,
but we choose not to come in person. That would be like the guy that
later arrives at the wedding party, dressed in a completely unsuffient way.
He thought "come as you are" was the doctrine.

"Don't do anything, because it's my job to dress you" Don't be silly. It's still
us to actually participate wilfully after we got enabled to do so, Jesus still needs
our active cooperation. An accuser wispers in your ear "you want to be saved
by works" in order to confuse you on this matter. Actually these are still two
different things, but weak minds always get stuck in confusion. Satan plays
with that and want to keep you there by saying "don't be stupid, you don't
have to repent, you already repented". Very smart of him, death follows sin,
but not in this case, Satan offers an exception because you already repented.

P.S. Because this osas thing is going nowhere, it's good to see greater parts
of the New Testament and how they relate to doctrines that leave out warnings
http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html

Warnings to believers would be meaningless if there would be nothing to warn
about, if there is nothing at stake and nothing to loose. The NT would be about
half it's length if that would be compatible and consistent with the Bible.

"Everyone that makes a statement is saved. Nothing he does
from now on would benefit his salvation nor would sin take it away from him"
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

 

[Solo]

Most misunderstand the security that a believer has in the work of Jesus Christ.

Those that are born of God as Jesus taught in John 3 are born again of the Spirit of God, and have a new creature that cannot sin as a portion of their unredeemed being. A believer can now decide to walk in the flesh and be carnal, or to walk in the Spirit and be Godly. The flesh will always be carnal and sold under sin until the day that Jesus returns at which time the flesh will put on immortality and incorruption. Until then it is mortal and corrupt.

The born again portion of a believer is sin free and will be united with the new body at Jesus' coming, and will always be with Jesus from the born again period on.

This view of OSAS is the definition of term 3 listed directly above Solo's post.

Hey Michael, how about we discuss the topic of holiness and is it possible in the life of a believer?

First of all the representation of the security of the believer in the three positions that you ascribe to may fit your understanding but they are woefully inadequate to my understanding of what God has given us in the salvation of believers. God has signed, sealed, and delivered each born again believer into eternity through his Son Jesus Christ. I will never deny the power of the Lord Jesus Christ and his ability to keep me as a child of God whom the Father gave him, sealing me with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.


36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:1-5

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:18-21

Holiness is possible only when one abides in Jesus Christ and his holiness is applied. Our holiness is as filthy rags. We do have a new creature that exists within our being since the born of above born again event whereby we are able to walk in the Spirit instead of walking in the flesh. We do continue to walk around with this corrupt sinful flesh which we put to death on the cross of calvary so that we are dead in Christ Jesus and we are also alive in Him. We can transform our minds with the Word of God, but not if we continue to conform to the world.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, F50 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; 11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. 14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:1-21

 

[cj]

Warnings to believers would be meaningless if there would be nothing to warn
about, if there is nothing at stake and nothing to loose. The NT would be about
half it's length if that would be compatible and consistent with the Bible.

"Everyone that makes a statement is saved. Nothing he does
from now on would benefit his salvation nor would sin take it away from him"
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

Really Geo, the above is a load of crock, as meaingless as it comes...

Reading what you and others say here one would think that believing in Christ is a walk in the park. That there is no rejection of anything at the point of believing. This is not what scripture says.

To believe into Christ is to have come to the cross of Christ, had the work of the cross applied, and then come through into resurrection.

Following your folly thinking would lead us to believe that resurrection power can be defeated; a lie from the deepest parts of hell.


The fact is ther is most assuredly a warning, but not for the reasons you put forward, the warning concerns the losing of the reward, not salavation.

See salvation is a gift, a free gift, or perhaps you haven't come across this in the scriptures, you know, the matter of God's grace?

Gaining the reward though is not a matter of grace but of work, or more precisely, co-work.


What you have done above is attempted to build a straw-man argument, and its obvious in its silliness.

"Everyone that makes a statement is saved.

Confess with his mouth and believe in his heart is what scriptures say.

I wonder, why would you seem to deliberately misrepresent what the scripture says?

Nothing he does from now on would benefit his salvation nor would sin take it away from him"

Scripture declares that no man is perfected,.... meaning this,..... sin is still with men.

Fact is, even as you go about your "holiness" efforts sin is still right there with you.

Or maybe you think you won't die, that you don't have a body of death?

Little one, your death-body is such because it is corrupted by sin, or did you not know that.

So if sin can cause a man to lose his salvation then no man has ever been saved, for all men have sinned and abide in sin, having not been perfected.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die.

And no truer words has Satan spoken..... for Eve is saved.

See, God takes that which was meant for evil and brings good from it.

But I wonder if you really believe God.



In love,
cj

 

[AVBunyan]

Below are quotes I took from this thread – no names attached – not important. These statements reveal several things to me and others it appears. These folks:

1. Most likely do not know what took place at Calvary.
2. Most likely have never studied the “tion†words of Paul (ex. Propitiation, justification, imputation, etc.).
3. Most likely have never taken the time to read the first chapter of Ephesians in a King James Bible and underlined all past tense words and phrases to see what God did for the saint.
4. Most likely are in churches that do not major on sound doctrine just “experiential life-teachingsâ€Â.
5. Some most likely may not even be in local churches or do no attend regularly enough.
6. Most likely do no understand just how vile and depraved they are in God’s eyes.
7. Most likely do no know the difference between sin and sins and how Calvary dealt with both.
8. Most likely spend more time in other parts of the Bible than Paul’s epistles.
9. Most likely use multiple and conflicting modern versions and have no final authority.
10. Most likely are lost due to the fact that they are trusting something they are doing or not doing along with Christ to get them to glory. Won’t work – either all Christ or you and any bit of you won’t work. And it appears you like you a lot.

I was being polite here using “most likely†– “most likely“ is most likely “probably.

“Now I truly believe Yahweh is merciful and that if you seek him with your whole heart, you can be given eternal life and be resurrected in the last day.â€Â

“Yes but we have a free will, and we can do stuff that suddenly comes
to our mind. Actions have consequences, one of them is described here:â€Â

“The key is on obedience, realzing before whom you walk (as one rabbi put it to me). And no, not by your own criteria, but on Yahweh's criteria. This is true faith. Messiah can live in you, not for you. We have retained our ability to make choices.â€Â

“It is funny. When I was OSAS, I was never secure in my relationship, but now that I reject OSAS, I have full assurance.â€Â

“f we are in Christ we cannot continue sinning. We must repent. If we don't, there is no place for us in His kingdom.â€Â

“Is it lack of repentance that unsaves a person. Well unless you achieve a sinless state at the point of death, you will still have unrepented sin. “

â€ÂI think the only way to lose salvation is to fall away. This sin can't be forgiven because this sin rejects forgiveness. And I think sin of anykind drives people to commit this sin.â€Â

“For myself, I am very much content (as much as I can be ) with a continually saved theology....The opportunity to be saved, and resaved is always there.â€Â

“Its proponents cannot and will not convince me. I will never preach OSAS to anyone!!!!!!!!â€Â

“What if 10 years from now I were to slip back into the sinful lifestyle I led before Christ saved me?â€Â

“Where is the doctrine of OSAS found in the Bible?â€Â

“And I firmly believe God has the power to ke us safe AS LONG AS WE CHOOSE TO REMAIN IN CHRIST.â€Â

“I spent some time believing OSAS, so I know very much about the theology. Plus, I dedicated over a year to studying the doctrine, making a 40 + page study booklet on it to document my findings.â€Â

Have a nice day 8-)

 

[Heidi]

Well, according to the poll, half the Christians here think Jesus is lying when he said, "No one can snatch them out of my hand." They also must believe that Paul is lying when he said in Romans 8: 48, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ jesus our Lord. "

They also must think Paul is lying when he said; "You however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you."

The bible holds no contradictions. If someone has an interpretation that contradicts any scripture, it is a false one pure and simply. But...if some people think their salvation depends on them instead of Christ's death, they're up a creek without a paddle because none of us can be perfect enough to save ourselves. I feel sorry for them.

 

[AVBunyan]

Lost and going to hell

There is only 28 people. I believe majority believes OSAS. I can tell by their fruit of Christianity. I have been watching carefuly Christians over 30 years. Most of them don't seems to care about what they do.

I'll go a step further - I firmly believe most of professing "christianity" today is lost and going to hell. Why do I believe this?

1. Most folks have no idea doctrinally what happened at Calvary - been saying this on this forum for 3 years.

2. Most folks bellieve you can lose salvation which confirms #1 and that they are trusting themselves.

3. Their lives demonstrate they do not believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5.

God bless 8-)

 

[JM]

Re: Lost and going to hell

There is only 28 people. I believe majority believes OSAS. I can tell by their fruit of Christianity. I have been watching carefuly Christians over 30 years. Most of them don't seems to care about what they do.

I'll go a step further - I firmly believe most of professing "christianity" today is lost and going to hell. Why do I believe this?

1. Most folks have no idea doctrinally what happened at Calvary - been saying this on this forum for 3 years.

2. Most folks bellieve you can lose salvation which confirms #1 and that they are trusting themselves.

3. Their lives demonstrate they do not believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5.

God bless 8-)

I agree.

Most Christians won't even consider this AV.

 

[Solo]

Re: Lost and going to hell

There is only 28 people. I believe majority believes OSAS. I can tell by their fruit of Christianity. I have been watching carefuly Christians over 30 years. Most of them don't seems to care about what they do.

I'll go a step further - I firmly believe most of professing "christianity" today is lost and going to hell. Why do I believe this?

1. Most folks have no idea doctrinally what happened at Calvary - been saying this on this forum for 3 years.

2. Most folks bellieve you can lose salvation which confirms #1 and that they are trusting themselves.

3. Their lives demonstrate they do not believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5.

God bless 8-)

I agree.

Most Christians won't even consider this AV.

I agree as well.

Most Christians consider this, however those that proclaim to be Christians and are not, won't consider this.

 

[Windozer]

Gingercat,
You have only been a Christian for seven years according to your posts when you were posting as joyinhim; therefore your carefully watching Christians for 30 years is a bogus comment. Your posts give no reflection of knowing God's Word as you never follow a Biblical exegesis on any one topic. Everything is your opinion which is usually against Christians. I suspect that you have absolutely no idea what Christianity is about as you have never stated anything positive about being a Christian. I doubt that you even attend a local Church as you have disapproved every pastor and denomination that there is except for the SDAs, and you have said that you are not an SDA. I suspect that you are just one confused soul wondering how to accuse one more Christian with your heretical positions.
Give it a break. Your attitude on this forum is getting very old, very fast.

I agree...with the above quote. I would say that is a fair description. Much of what Gingercat writes makes no sense to me.

It is my belief that she is one hurting machine, and until she is able to deal with the injuries that have happened to her in life, she will continue to preform the way she is. I stopped responding to her very early upon her arrival here, due to the fact (that she made it quite clear) that she thinks she knows it all. And resorts to attacking/condemning other Christians...

Me thinks there is a lot of projection occurring in her posts.

 

[cj]

Re: Lost and going to hell

I'll go a step further - I firmly believe most of professing "christianity" today is lost and going to hell.

Thing is, should you belive this?

Why have any thoughts on it at all, it simply is what it is and will be what it will be.

Treat all as though they are beloved by God, and let Him take care of their condition.


In love,
cj