OSAS is biblical truth.

[George Muller]

have had enough. George you have not told us the root of your issue. You sound very much infected with being a Baptist, and Calvinist. Also Paul was purging the leaven? correction from God? NO, George, Paul sent the man off to be killed by the enemy. You purge the leaven in your own church George? You folks turn people over to a disobedient, manic spirit so that your people can be killed if they mess up?

Who is "us"? and I do not answer to you or "us" I answer to the Lord. I have made the issue well known, that IN GRACE salvation is secure, only in legalism are the warnings of the scriptures given as it relates to lost salvation. "Paul sent the man off to be killed" ????
What sort of nonsense is this? My friend you are far from the truth and nothing could be further from the truth. What I do in my Church is the Lords concern, not yours or this "us" you think to represent.

 

[JLB]

have had enough. George you have not told us the root of your issue. You sound very much infected with being a Baptist, and Calvinist. Also Paul was purging the leaven? correction from God? NO, George, Paul sent the man off to be killed by the enemy. You purge the leaven in your own church George? You folks turn people over to a disobedient, manic spirit so that your people can be killed if they mess up?

Who is "us"? and I do not answer to you or "us" I answer to the Lord. I have made the issue well known, that IN GRACE salvation is secure, only in legalism are the warnings of the scriptures given as it relates to lost salvation. "Paul sent the man off to be killed" ????
What sort of nonsense is this? My friend you are far from the truth and nothing could be further from the truth. What I do in my Church is the Lords concern, not yours or this "us" you think to represent.

All the scriptures Brother Mike just gave you are from the Lord Jesus.

You have exalted yourself against the knowledge of God.

You have shown yourself to be stubborn and clinging to deception rather than considering the truth of the many many scriptures that were presented to you.

I pray you turn from this behavior and truly consider that OSAS is not a true doctrine, in light of the many scriptures that teach us to continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel .


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Where is the warning that does not relate to turning back to the law?

In the book of Romans, which was written by Paul to those in Rome whom Paul described as God’s loved ones that were called to be holy from the nations who had also become the called who belong to Jesus the Anointed, chapter 11 and verse 22 seems to have such a warning. In context it reads:

13 Now, I want to address those of you who are people of the nations: Since I’m really an Apostle to the nations, I can glorify my service 14 if I can somehow make those of my own flesh jealous and save some of them. 15 Because, if throwing them away brought the world into a restored relationship [with God], what will taking them back mean, other than life for those who are dead? 16 For, if the first fruits are holy, so is the whole lump! And if the roots are holy, so are the branches!17 So, when some of the branches were broken off, you wild olives were grafted in and you became sharers of the fatness of the olive [tree’s] roots. 18 But, don’t cheer because those branches [were removed]; for if you find yourself cheering over that, remember that you don’t support the roots, they support you!19 Yet you can say, ‘Branches were broken off so I could be grafted in’ 20 … and that’s right! They were broken off because of a lack of faith; and you are there instead, because of your faith. But don’t think too much of yourselves… be afraid! 21 For, if God didn’t spare the natural branches, He won’t spare you either. 22 So, recognize God’s kindness, as well as [His] willingness to remove. For a fact; those who stumbled were cut off, while you received God’s loving care… but only for as long as you stay in that [good relationship]. Otherwise, you’ll be pruned off too! 23 And if [the Jews] don’t continue in their disbelief, they will be grafted back in, because God can graft them back in again!

In addition to this passage in Romans, we have Paul writing a letter to the Galatians that illustrates a very similar warning. Galatians 6:1, 7-9 reads:

1 Brothers, if anyone is ever caught up in doing bad things, those of you who have the Breath(Spirit) should try to restore that person in a reasonable way, as you keep an eye on yourselves so you aren’t tempted also………… 7 Now, don’t make any mistake when it comes to this: You can’t mock God! Because, whatever a person is planting, is what he’s going to harvest. 8 So, if he’s planting [the desires] of his own flesh, he will harvest decay from the flesh. And if he’s planting things that have to do with [God’s] Breath, he’ll harvest life in the age. 9 So, let’s not misbehave… let’s keep on doing what’s right until that time comes, because we’ll harvest what we deserve if we don’t tire out.

 

[Brother Mike]

Who is "us"? and I do not answer to you or "us" I answer to the Lord. I have made the issue well known, that IN GRACE salvation is secure, only in legalism are the warnings of the scriptures given as it relates to lost salvation. "Paul sent the man off to be killed" ????
What sort of nonsense is this? My friend you are far from the truth and nothing could be further from the truth. What I do in my Church is the Lords concern, not yours or this "us" you think to represent.

George, if your right, I am an awesome person to have on your side. You did not even bother addressing my scriptures though.

Grace is secure, but as the with the scriptures I posted and you have ignored, that grace must have faith applied to it. The Lord can't apply our faith for us. Your missing the faith part George, how do you not see the Word faith in there?

I gave scripture about departing from God, departing from faith. That means you choose to no longer follow the Lord Jesus by action or words. What happens if you no longer have faith in the grace that is freely provided?

You have to be Baptist, the only thing I can think that would make you ignore all these scriptures, or something close to Baptist. It's the only thing that makes sense as to why you would ignore all these things. All you had to do was say so, that your an electionist, and are stuck with Calvinistic beliefs. This way I would not have wasted my time.

If we are discussing healing George, I would have shown you that respect and told you I am in the WOF camp. This way you know my stance, and understand if you need to waste your time with me. I would tell you out of respect if you asked me.

We don't have to agree, nope!!! We don't have to waste each others time either with no respect.

The other thing George, I address every single scripture in full detail with other connecting scriptures when someone challenges what I believe.........

ASK JBL!!!

I back it with scriptures, not this ignoring and twisting around your doing. I show JBL respect, even If I don't agree with Him. I also ask JBL questions so I can understand something.

Mike.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What is "rocky" ground? But that which is made hard by the hypocricy of supposed law-keeping.

That's not how Jesus described 'rocky ground'. According to the words of Jesus, rocky ground is simply a ground that doesn't allow for the word to get rooted deep within. Nowhere is the Law referenced in relation to these 'soils' by Jesus. According to Jesus the Rocky soil received the Word with joy, was "here" (Matthew 13:21) as a christian (follower of Christ), then of his own will turned away.

 

[George Muller]

George, if your right, I am an awesome person to have on your side. You did not even bother addressing my scriptures though.

Well your "awesome" personage is not my concern, to be well-pleasing to the Lord is my intention. And many have posted many scriptures, I have posted many that are ignored by those who think that "doubt" and legalism are the evidence of salvation. Post your scripture in a clear and evident way, apart from your own religious traditions and logic, and I will be glad to address that scripture. As it relates to 1 Cor 5, I have given the true understanding of that passage and reject in absolute terms what many here are attempting to claim.

 

[George Muller]

All the scriptures Brother Mike just gave you are from the Lord Jesus.

You have exalted yourself against the knowledge of God.

You have shown yourself to be stubborn and clinging to deception rather than considering the truth of the many many scriptures that were presented to you.

I pray you turn from this behavior and truly consider that OSAS is not a true doctrine, in light of the many scriptures that teach us to continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel .

Well it is those who trust in salvation that are "grounded and steadfast" it is those who promote "doubt" and legalism that have been moved from the truth and hope of the gospel. As far as your charges against me, they are of no importance and have no power or meaning.

 

[George Muller]

Where is the warning that does not relate to turning back to the law?

In the book of Romans, which was written by Paul to those in Rome whom Paul described as God’s loved ones that were called to be holy from the nations who had also become the called who belong to Jesus the Anointed, chapter 11 and verse 22 seems to have such a warning. In context it reads:

13 Now, I want to address those of you who are people of the nations: Since I’m really an Apostle to the nations, I can glorify my service 14 if I can somehow make those of my own flesh jealous and save some of them. 15 Because, if throwing them away brought the world into a restored relationship [with God], what will taking them back mean, other than life for those who are dead? 16 For, if the first fruits are holy, so is the whole lump! And if the roots are holy, so are the branches!17 So, when some of the branches were broken off, you wild olives were grafted in and you became sharers of the fatness of the olive [tree’s] roots. 18 But, don’t cheer because those branches [were removed]; for if you find yourself cheering over that, remember that you don’t support the roots, they support you!19 Yet you can say, ‘Branches were broken off so I could be grafted in’ 20 … and that’s right! They were broken off because of a lack of faith; and you are there instead, because of your faith. But don’t think too much of yourselves… be afraid! 21 For, if God didn’t spare the natural branches, He won’t spare you either. 22 So, recognize God’s kindness, as well as [His] willingness to remove. For a fact; those who stumbled were cut off, while you received God’s loving care… but only for as long as you stay in that [good relationship]. Otherwise, you’ll be pruned off too! 23 And if [the Jews] don’t continue in their disbelief, they will be grafted back in, because God can graft them back in again!

In addition to this passage in Romans, we have Paul writing a letter to the Galatians that illustrates a very similar warning. Galatians 6:1, 7-9 reads:

1 Brothers, if anyone is ever caught up in doing bad things, those of you who have the Breath(Spirit) should try to restore that person in a reasonable way, as you keep an eye on yourselves so you aren’t tempted also………… 7 Now, don’t make any mistake when it comes to this: You can’t mock God! Because, whatever a person is planting, is what he’s going to harvest. 8 So, if he’s planting [the desires] of his own flesh, he will harvest decay from the flesh. And if he’s planting things that have to do with [God’s] Breath, he’ll harvest life in the age. 9 So, let’s not misbehave… let’s keep on doing what’s right until that time comes, because we’ll harvest what we deserve if we don’t tire out.

Yes the law is not of faith, so to turn from faith is to turn to the law (legalism)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...those who think that "doubt" and legalism are the evidence of salvation

No. The argument is, faith and obedience are the earmarks of the faith that saves. But OSAS says once you get saved that is no longer a binding truth, and that James was not telling the truth, and that you really can have a dead faith--one that does not act in obedience to God--and be saved.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

You who have no knowledge whatsoever about this person and their life in Christ up to that point.

But Jethro B, you underestimate what knowledge GM thinks he has. Based on the numerous posts in this thread he has made, it would seem as if he's under the impression (because he certainly gives this impression) that lay people and common Christians are not given the ability to understand things the way those few special ones that God grants power to. Those are able to understand and do in fact have special knowledge that alows them to make declarations about people they do not know as well as make authoritive doctrinal statements without having to have scripture backing their assertions. For those of us that aren't of their ilk, we must fall back and respect their 'gift' and trust them to lead us to a better understanding of the ways of the Lord, otherwise if we inspect their declarations and insist that they abide in the scriptures we are being overly legalistic and ungodly.

 

[George Muller]

...those who think that "doubt" and legalism are the evidence of salvation

No. The argument is, faith and obedience are the earmarks of the faith that saves. But OSAS says once you get saved that is no longer a binding truth, and that James was not telling the truth, and that you really can have a dead faith--one that does not act in obedience to God--and be saved.

Well I have not promoted a "dead" faith, but a living faith. I would even agree to some degree that some who promote a OSAS have failed to establish faith and love as they should. But my points still stand and are made clear in the scriptures.

 

[George Muller]

You who have no knowledge whatsoever about this person and their life in Christ up to that point.

But Jethro B, you underestimate what knowledge GM thinks he has. Based on the numerous posts in this thread he has made, it would seem as if he's under the impression (because he certainly gives this impression) that lay people and common Christians are not given the ability to understand things the way those few special ones that God grants power to. Those are able to understand and do in fact have special knowledge that alows them to make declarations about people they do not know as well as make authoritive doctrinal statements without having to have scripture backing their assertions. For those of us that aren't of their ilk, we must fall back and respect their 'gift' and trust them to lead us to a better understanding of the ways of the Lord, otherwise if we inspect their declarations and insist that they abide in the scriptures we are being overly legalistic and ungodly.

So now that some are defeated in the truth of scripture, lets just turn to personal attacks. Like I have not seen this before

 

[JLB]

Well it is those who trust in salvation that are "grounded and steadfast"

I agree with this.

However I also agree that if a person no longer trust's and believes then they are not grounded and steadfast and are in danger of being moved away or turned away from the hope of Salvation.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Yes the law is not of faith, so to turn from faith is to turn to the law (legalism)

California is not Texas, but that doesn't mean that if one leaves California they'd automatically end up in Texas. You leave but 2 possibilities available to all; either one is walking by faith or living as one that is a law keeper. What prompted you to conclude that such a rigid stance is the correct one to take? Additionally, will you please clearly state exactly what you mean when you use the term 'Law' so that we can be on the same page as we discuss the issue?

 

[George Muller]

Yes the law is not of faith, so to turn from faith is to turn to the law (legalism)

California is not Texas, but that doesn't mean that if one leaves California they'd automatically end up in Texas. You leave but 2 possibilities available to all; either one is walking by faith or living as one that is a law keeper. What prompted you to conclude that such a rigid stance is the correct one to take? Additionally, will you please clearly state exactly what you mean when you use the term 'Law' so that we can be on the same page as we discuss the issue?

What?:toofunny

The Law is every "jot and tittle"- "all things written in the book of the law"

With the Ten Commandments as the very core of the law.

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So now that some are defeated in the truth of scripture, lets just turn to personal attacks. Like I have not seen this before

My apologies if this was in the realm of a personal attack in your opinion. That wasn't my intent. My intent was to bring to light (especially to your eyes) the impression your posts often give readers. You SEEM to speak as someone that has or is familiar with "special knowledge" that Joe Christian and Bob Bible-Reader are not privy to.

Whether you see it or not, it appears that you have a habit of throwing out givens that are not found in scripture and expecting the rest of us to start from there with your unsubstantiated given. Your stances on the law vs. faith is but one recent example and so is your claim that "some are defeated in the truth of scripture". You have made these claims but failed in demonstrating them to be based in reality based on what as transpired on this forum. In other words, why not stick to the scriptures and before declaring something like the above, please show show us why such are correct first so we can start from the same place because it is tough to stay on topic when posters do not do that and we end up off on unnecessary tangents like this one.

The reason topics like this are important IMHO, is related to the ramifications on behavior and one's attitude as if relates to how one conducts themselves. The OSAS camp will at times in the defense of that position elevate (their version of)faith over righteousness and well doing. They seem to ignore the importance of good works in the life of those who wish to be DECLARED as righteous. There can be an unintended arrogance that creeps in from those who feel they are in the fold of safety that is similar to the attitude expressed by the Jews in the gospels when they said things like what's recorded in John 8 about Abraham being their father. There at times seems to be a neglect for the "weighter things" like faithfulness, etc.

 

[George Muller]

Well it is those who trust in salvation that are "grounded and steadfast"

I agree with this.

However I also agree that if a person no longer trust's and believes then they are not grounded and steadfast and are in danger of being moved away or turned away from the hope of Salvation.


JLB

Like I have said over and over, it is the law and legalism that shipwrecks a believers faith, so any discussion of turning from faith must be brought into the truth of why the law is not of faith. As I have said over and over, most every warning of turning from faith, has this issue in view.

 

[George Muller]

My apologies if this was in the realm of a personal attack in your opinion. That wasn't my intent. My intent was to bring to light (especially to your eyes) the impression your posts often give readers. You SEEM to speak as someone that has or is familiar with "special knowledge" that Joe Christian and Bob Bible-Reader are not privy to.

Well if you cannot contend with my wisdom in the scriptures, maybe that answers your charge?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You who have no knowledge whatsoever about this person and their life in Christ up to that point.

But Jethro B, you underestimate what knowledge GM thinks he has. Based on the numerous posts in this thread he has made, it would seem as if he's under the impression (because he certainly gives this impression) that lay people and common Christians are not given the ability to understand things the way those few special ones that God grants power to. Those are able to understand and do in fact have special knowledge that alows them to make declarations about people they do not know as well as make authoritive doctrinal statements without having to have scripture backing their assertions. For those of us that aren't of their ilk, we must fall back and respect their 'gift' and trust them to lead us to a better understanding of the ways of the Lord, otherwise if we inspect their declarations and insist that they abide in the scriptures we are being overly legalistic and ungodly.

Yes, you articulated it well.

And I personally do not see this as a personal attack. Without going into detail I'm pretty sure this person has made some pretty exceptional boasts of spiritual power and authority under another forum name. (That's all I'm going to say about that. He's free to confirm, or deny it, or say nothing at all.) If that's true I don't know how he could perceive your post as a personal attack. You would be simply confirming what he has basically already said himself.

But that's all I need to say about that. I'm trying hard to stay with just the topic at hand. He's the one who took it in a personal direction by saying he knew more about the person than I did. I'm not going to follow the trail any further than I have.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Like I have said over and over, it is the law and legalism that shipwrecks a believers faith...

Not just plain old fashioned love of sin? Ever? Really?

That's unreasonable...and empirically indefensible.