OSAS is biblical truth.

[JLB]

I am bad guy murder.. Evil type guy abusing kids just every thing we can think of that is unChristlike...
I am in jail the Baptist preacher shows up .... Yup I answer the alter call...Get out of jail

That is one heck of a lawyer.

Saved, is saved, is saved, is saved though. Is Jesus Lord? This question can't be answered Reba because while your murdering kids and causing mayhem, what is the light that God has personally given you.

One thing that really made an impression on me was the saved women that went to church and murdered her two boys, beating their head in with a rock for God. How the heck can you be saved, read the bible and think that would be OK? It just don't make sense. She was given life, but God turns it around for her and gets her out of jail. Asking the Lord about this, the Lord said, "I had given mercy based on what she knew, and have saved her."

How in the World can you not know as a Christian that killing your own children is wrong? How is that possible? I guess only God would know.

Then we have the man that slept with his Mother/ Step mother and Paul turns him over to Satan to kill him and hope to save at least his spirit. This man did know some things. That tells me the OSAS is nonsense because Paul had to take drastic actions to squeak this guy into Heaven. Paul said that his spirit "MIGHT" be saved.

So, your guy, who would know. According to the Word however, it's very clear that if you do not live your Life as Jesus being Lord, then you don't get a free ride.

Mike.

Do you know what the word "might" means in the Greek, brother Mike? It is the same root of "dunamis" which is "power" Paul was not saying "might" as in maybe, but that this mans spirit would be saved. So in effect you see Gods Mercy toward this woman, but you look upon the scriptures as if this is another Christ? No the same Christ saved her and him, because that is who He is and that is what He does.

What everyone is saying, George, is what about the countless number of people that did not have an Apostles Paul to know what to do for them, to if fact have the wisdom as well as the authority to know tom turn a person over to Satan SO THAT they would be saved in the end.

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

 

[reba]

Just the difference in the way each person reads the post I guess.

 

[George Muller]

I am bad guy murder.. Evil type guy abusing kids just every thing we can think of that is unChristlike...
I am in jail the Baptist preacher shows up .... Yup I answer the alter call...Get out of jail

That is one heck of a lawyer.

Saved, is saved, is saved, is saved though. Is Jesus Lord? This question can't be answered Reba because while your murdering kids and causing mayhem, what is the light that God has personally given you.

One thing that really made an impression on me was the saved women that went to church and murdered her two boys, beating their head in with a rock for God. How the heck can you be saved, read the bible and think that would be OK? It just don't make sense. She was given life, but God turns it around for her and gets her out of jail. Asking the Lord about this, the Lord said, "I had given mercy based on what she knew, and have saved her."

How in the World can you not know as a Christian that killing your own children is wrong? How is that possible? I guess only God would know.

Then we have the man that slept with his Mother/ Step mother and Paul turns him over to Satan to kill him and hope to save at least his spirit. This man did know some things. That tells me the OSAS is nonsense because Paul had to take drastic actions to squeak this guy into Heaven. Paul said that his spirit "MIGHT" be saved.

So, your guy, who would know. According to the Word however, it's very clear that if you do not live your Life as Jesus being Lord, then you don't get a free ride.

Mike.

Do you know what the word "might" means in the Greek, brother Mike? It is the same root of "dunamis" which is "power" Paul was not saying "might" as in maybe, but that this mans spirit would be saved. So in effect you see Gods Mercy toward this woman, but you look upon the scriptures as if this is another Christ? No the same Christ saved her and him, because that is who He is and that is what He does.

What everyone is saying, George, is what about the countless number of people that did not have an Apostles Paul to know what to do for them, to if fact have the wisdom as well as the authority to know tom turn a person over to Satan SO THAT they would be saved in the end.

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Not sure how having the person of Paul changes the meaning of the word or its intended purpose? If ones understanding of salvation is in error they will read this scripture as well as many others in error. The flesh is not saved, it never was nor can it be. The spirit is of God, and it is sealed by the Holy Spirit. Of course the flesh is destroyed of those who walk in the flesh, not just this man, but all believers that are walking in the flesh are reaping destruction of the flesh.

 

[George Muller]

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this power and understand Spiritual authority.

 

[JLB]

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this power and understand Spiritual authority.

No George, it doesn't.

You have never done this yourself, nor have you ever witnessed anyone who has.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The religion that is not being spoken of here in your discussion is Judaism.

The law is the issue, not "Judasim" And legalism destroys all mens faith (Jew or Gentile). The law is the strength of sin to all men who look to the law. Any Christian that seeks to be justified by the law, has fallen from grace and is cutoff from Christ.

Good grief, M. The woman I spoke about was hardly trying to keep some kind of law, let alone be justified by that law. She was grasping for the exact opposite of that! She cut herself off from Christ by her love of the world, not by a desire to be lawful or legalistic. I wish that she, along with the rest of the church, was trying to keep some kind of legalistic law. At least they'd be taking the first step toward justification in Christ--death by law. But as long as 'law', and 'works' remain the four letter words of the church many in the church will never die the death that all are required to die in order to come to Christ.

 

[reba]

Not sure where that claim was made? Could you post that statement, or be more clear as to why you would make such a charge?

..

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this
power and understand Spiritual authority.

 

[Brother Mike]

Do you know what the word "might" means in the Greek, brother Mike? It is the same root of "dunamis" which is "power" Paul was not saying "might" as in maybe, but that this mans spirit would be saved. So in effect you see Gods Mercy toward this woman, but you look upon the scriptures as if this is another Christ? No the same Christ saved her and him, because that is who He is and that is what He does.

George....... Please..... Please... Look at this thread. Your the black sheep here brother. Might is only in some translations, actually the word does not even appear. You should know this!! When everyone is ganging up on you, it's not the time to make mistakes if you want people to hear your point. Trust me, I often take the black sheep position. I do what I can though so that even if someone does not agree, they can't say it's not possible. That is all you need, the thought in someones mind that you might possibly be right and this here is not helping.

All you had to do is say the word Might is not there........ End of story, you win!!! Just the word saved is, the rest added by the translators.

Also George, that is not even the point. What happens if Paul did not get involved? Then what happens to the man? Think about the two components here. We are saved by grace.......... That is awesome, eternally secure because the grace is there!!! Praise God.

However though........ we have that part about the faith in grace. It's the faith part, our part that also needs to be in agreement. It's a covenant George, so its not a one way street here. This is why Paul took that very drastic measure to destroy this man, and have Satan come and kill him in hopes he would repent.

Otherwise................ Read very carefully. If the condition was not that the man was put under such pressure by the destruction of his flesh to repent, if that is not what saved him, then Satan just killing us also makes us saved.

Did you catch that?

I hope your belief is not rooted in something else like election or Calvinism. Otherwise we have a whole deeper issue here, as OSAS is just a symptom of a doctrine. There is a middle road here somewhere. The condition is, .......... Is Jesus really Lord? That has to be in place, Jesus has to be Lord. It's not just getting dunked in water and make a one time confession, Jesus must remain Lord. That is not works, but a belief in that grace.

If You believe in OSAS, then you have to believe we have no free will, You have to believe then that God is the one that picks who gets saved and not saved. If that is the case, then we are just debating one of the symptoms........... and not going to go anywhere.

Good grief

There is absolutely nothing good about grief......... What are you saying? Every single idle word we have to give an account.

What everyone is saying, George, is what about the countless number of people that did not have an Apostles Paul to know what to do for them, to if fact have the wisdom as well as the authority to know tom turn a person over to Satan SO THAT they would be saved in the end.

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Quick reply to this message

That one passage of scripture, among others means that OSAS is ............. BUSTED!!!!

Putting great pressure on the flesh makes one repent, hopefully just so He does not roast in hell. Once again, if it had nothing to do with repenting under great pressure then Satan just killing people saves them also.



Mike.

 

[George Muller]

George....... Please..... Please... Look at this thread. Your the black sheep here brother. Might is only in some translations, actually the word does not even appear.

Well you seem to put great value in this word "might" when you thought it supported your views? Have you now decided this word that was so important to you before is not really that important? That seems a little odd to me? And I don't care if every one on this forum disagrees with me, I stand in the truth and cannot be moved because you call me a "black sheep":toofunny

In fact as I read the passage in the Greek, I see that there is no word that suggest any point of doubt or question made to the saving of this mans spirit, but the passage was intended to say in clear terms this mans salvation was secure, even as his flesh was destroyed.

 

[George Muller]

Read very carefully. If the condition was not that the man was put under such pressure by the destruction of his flesh to repent, if that is not what saved him, then Satan just killing us also makes us saved.

Well that is based upon your own opinion. First correction was brought to keep this sort of thing from the Church body, to bring correction to the group as Paul states in the same epistle and in the second epistle. There is no condition of repentance mentioned, but the saving of the spirit is stated as a fact, without condition or any words that put condition on the statement. This condition is your own reading and based upon your own opinion. In the context of Pauls gospel, it is not possible that this man could be condemned in spirit, but the flesh is the issue of judgment. As with all believers. Your reference to satan just killing us to make us saved, is a mystery to me as to your point? The man was already saved and one cannot be saved again and again? One is saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit cannot be lost. Those who defile the temple will suffer in the flesh, but the spirit is not lost, and this is the point Paul is making.

 

[George Muller]

The religion that is not being spoken of here in your discussion is Judaism.

The law is the issue, not "Judasim" And legalism destroys all mens faith (Jew or Gentile). The law is the strength of sin to all men who look to the law. Any Christian that seeks to be justified by the law, has fallen from grace and is cutoff from Christ.

Good grief, M. The woman I spoke about was hardly trying to keep some kind of law, let alone be justified by that law. She was grasping for the exact opposite of that! She cut herself off from Christ by her love of the world, not by a desire to be lawful or legalistic. I wish that she, along with the rest of the church, was trying to keep some kind of legalistic law. At least they'd be taking the first step toward justification in Christ--death by law. But as long as 'law', and 'works' remain the four letter words of the church many in the church will never die the death that all are required to die in order to come to Christ.

Like I said I do not accept your judgment against this person, and its not that one wants to be put under the law, its that false teachers who teach false doctrine and lay this yoke upon these poor and weak people. For the law destroys faith, and produces sinful desires and lust. If one was subject to such false teaching, then God would lay the charge not against this weak believer, but against those who caused this weak one to stumble through these false doctrines and teachings.

 

[George Muller]

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this power and understand Spiritual authority.

No George, it doesn't.

You have never done this yourself, nor have you ever witnessed anyone who has.


JLB

Well I can give you Andrew Wommacks testimony, and Smith Wigglesworth and a few others I can think of. But it seems to be rare that God grants this sort of power, but its very real. Just as the scriptures say.

 

[George Muller]

Not sure where that claim was made? Could you post that statement, or be more clear as to why you would make such a charge?

..

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this
power and understand Spiritual authority.

Lets see? The charge was that some of these OSAS people believe they decide who is saved and not saved. I ask for this statement to be posted, not sure how this relates to that issue?

 

[JLB]

Otherwise................ Read very carefully. If the condition was not that the man was put under such pressure by the destruction of his flesh to repent, if that is not what saved him, then Satan just killing us also makes us saved. Did you catch that?

MYTH Busta, BUSTED !!!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this power and understand Spiritual authority.

No George, it doesn't.

You have never done this yourself, nor have you ever witnessed anyone who has.


JLB

Well I can give you Andrew Wommacks testimony, and Smith Wigglesworth and a few others I can think of. But it seems to be rare that God grants this sort of power, but its very real. Just as the scriptures say.

I believe it's real. I believe what Paul said and did.

What I don't believe is you have this, or have ever seen it done.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Read very carefully. If the condition was not that the man was put under such pressure by the destruction of his flesh to repent, if that is not what saved him, then Satan just killing us also makes us saved.

Well that is based upon your own opinion. First correction was brought to keep this sort of thing from the Church body, to bring correction to the group as Paul states in the same epistle and in the second epistle. There is no condition of repentance mentioned, but the saving of the spirit is stated as a fact, without condition or any words that put condition on the statement. This condition is your own reading and based upon your own opinion. In the context of Pauls gospel, it is not possible that this man could be condemned in spirit, but the flesh is the issue of judgment. As with all believers. Your reference to satan just killing us to make us saved, is a mystery to me as to your point? The man was already saved and one cannot be saved again and again? One is saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit cannot be lost. Those who defile the temple will suffer in the flesh, but the spirit is not lost, and this is the point Paul is making.

You're missing the point.

Why is it necessary that the man die in order for the spirit to be saved. That is the reason given in the passage for him being turned over to satan--to be saved. Obviously, there is something implied in being turned over to satan that saves a person in the Day of Christ besides just the simple fact that you (may) die. Biblically, we know the implied value of being turned over to satan is that the person might be brought back to faith and repentance--which we know this person was. He did not need to die.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Have you ever heard of a Pastor or anyone who said, okay this person is unrepentant, the only course of action left is to turn them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that they will be saved?

Yes my friend, this happens in the church, by those who have been given this power and understand Spiritual authority.

No George, it doesn't.

You have never done this yourself, nor have you ever witnessed anyone who has.


JLB

Well I can give you Andrew Wommacks testimony, and Smith Wigglesworth and a few others I can think of. But it seems to be rare that God grants this sort of power, but its very real. Just as the scriptures say.

I think you're exaggerating what it means to be turned over to satan.

All it means is being turned over to your sin and enduring the just penalty for doing so. Nobody needs a special power to excommunicate a person from the fellowship and let them indulge their sin to their own destruction.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The religion that is not being spoken of here in your discussion is Judaism.

The law is the issue, not "Judasim" And legalism destroys all mens faith (Jew or Gentile). The law is the strength of sin to all men who look to the law. Any Christian that seeks to be justified by the law, has fallen from grace and is cutoff from Christ.

Good grief, M. The woman I spoke about was hardly trying to keep some kind of law, let alone be justified by that law. She was grasping for the exact opposite of that! She cut herself off from Christ by her love of the world, not by a desire to be lawful or legalistic. I wish that she, along with the rest of the church, was trying to keep some kind of legalistic law. At least they'd be taking the first step toward justification in Christ--death by law. But as long as 'law', and 'works' remain the four letter words of the church many in the church will never die the death that all are required to die in order to come to Christ.

Like I said I do not accept your judgment against this person...

But I'm just supposed to accept yours, right? You who have no knowledge whatsoever about this person and their life in Christ up to that point.

...and its not that one wants to be put under the law, its that false teachers who teach false doctrine and lay this yoke upon these poor and weak people. For the law destroys faith, and produces sinful desires and lust. If one was subject to such false teaching, then God would lay the charge not against this weak believer, but against those who caused this weak one to stumble through these false doctrines and teachings.

You seem to know more about the situation than I do. So tell me all about the situation and what yoke was laid upon her that caused her to reject Christ. I was there, you were not, and I can tell you quite confidently that it was not a matter of religious legalism. She simply wanted to indulge the world she left behind. She changed her mind about faith in Christ and caved into the temptations of her flesh. It doesn't take legalism to do that.

Then explain to me how and why it's wrong to tell people what saving faith requires--as the Bible does--because some will not accept that and will abandon the faith and will make us guilty of teaching false doctrine.

 

[Brother Mike]

In fact as I read the passage in the Greek, I see that there is no word that suggest any point of doubt or question made to the saving of this mans spirit, but the passage was intended to say in clear terms this mans salvation was secure, even as his flesh was destroyed.

George, what are we dealing with here........... His salvation was secure by the destroying of the flesh? Why might have Paul turned this one over to Satan? Is this another way to get someone saved? Your not reading the points here George or answering them. That really concerns me, if you don't see it.

Since you might not see it, then are we dealing with something else like Calvinism? or some Baptist doctrine. What is the root of this?

Paul turned one over to Satan so that this man's Spirit may be saved. Why would Paul do that?

Answer the questions please.

Biblically, we know the implied value of being turned over to satan is that the person might be brought back to faith and repentance--which we know this person was. He did not need to die.

That is the thing, He did Repent and was in a World of Hurt. Paul said receive him back that he may not have overmuch sorrow. Had he not repented, It would have been Hell for him, the whole reason Paul let the proper authorities have him. Remember the rest were puffed up, praying for him, not even concerned. God is not going to pound him, so Paul put him in the hands of the one He was obeying.

I have a big issue when things make sense and a person is unable to address the point. This is why I am asking if there is a bad doctrine in the way which blinds people. A doctrine like Calvinism or some form of election doctrine. I have seen it more than once where a person was unable to understand something because of a bondage.

The Word should be changing all of us. All of us should examine what others are saying and give it weight. I have had to change my stance on things many times once I found that I had been running with the pack, the pack heading over the cliff. I don't like cliffs. I am not opposed to believing in Post trib, or election, or anything as long as it all lines up and makes sense.

Mike.

 

[George Muller]

Good grief, M. The woman I spoke about was hardly trying to keep some kind of law, let alone be justified by that law. She was grasping for the exact opposite of that! She cut herself off from Christ by her love of the world, not by a desire to be lawful or legalistic. I wish that she, along with the rest of the church, was trying to keep some kind of legalistic law. At least they'd be taking the first step toward justification in Christ--death by law. But as long as 'law', and 'works' remain the four letter words of the church many in the church will never die the death that all are required to die in order to come to Christ.

Like I said I do not accept your judgment against this person...

But I'm just supposed to accept yours, right? You who have no knowledge whatsoever about this person and their life in Christ up to that point.

...and its not that one wants to be put under the law, its that false teachers who teach false doctrine and lay this yoke upon these poor and weak people. For the law destroys faith, and produces sinful desires and lust. If one was subject to such false teaching, then God would lay the charge not against this weak believer, but against those who caused this weak one to stumble through these false doctrines and teachings.

You seem to know more about the situation than I do. So tell me all about the situation and what yoke was laid upon her that caused her to reject Christ. I was there, you were not, and I can tell you quite confidently that it was not a matter of religious legalism. She simply wanted to indulge the world she left behind. She changed her mind about faith in Christ and caved into the temptations of her flesh. It doesn't take legalism to do that.

Then explain to me how and why it's wrong to tell people what saving faith requires--as the Bible does--because some will not accept that and will abandon the faith and will make us guilty of teaching false doctrine.

Not sure what you are asking me to do? I do not accept your judgment of this person, nor do I judge this person, but as I have said Legalism is most likely the cause of this persons stumble.