OSAS The Truth

[JLB]

You have no support at all from Scripture that believing for a while means loss of salvation.


These are those who never believed.

What you keep dismissing is that when one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise for the day of redemption (Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5), they have eternal life (Jn 3:16, 6:40), which means they cannot spend any time in the second death.


This speaks of assurance, not the FACT that one who has believed is secure. Being secure and knowing you are secure are 2 separate things.


Ok, switching gears here. This is a different context. It's about the tribulation. Does not apply to mankind in general. It's very specific.


Do you understand what Paul is saying here about the conditional statement of v.23?

He is saying that God reconciled us who have believed in order to present us believers holy and blameless. But ONLY IF we believers continue in the faith, and are not moved away from the confidence of the gospel.

This has nothing at all to do with OSAS.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These believed for a while the fell away.


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

if they fall away...to renew them again to repentance.

And again -



12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14


we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Steadfast to the end.

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, but turn away... Have become unbelievers.

They have fallen away, and it's impossible for them to be renewed unto repentance, for they have put the Son of God to an open shame.

We are required to remain steadfast unto the end... For the end of our faith is the salvation of our soul.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I don't think you quite understand what people are saying. Nor that of what Christ taught. I'll try again.
The scripture I quoted is Jesus simply saying, those who hear his voice he knows already and before the creation of the world, before they were knitted together in their mothers womb. They hearken to the call of Christ because he is one with them. And when they find redemption in the lord they are his sheep and no one can rip them from his hand.
Those who come to Christianity, go through the motions and then fall away, were never in his hand. Not ever.
That is why the other scripture that was posted has Jesus saying they may argue to Jesus at the throne of judgment that they performed miracles in his name, professed his teachings, proclaimed for themselves his covenant, but he never knew them.

When Jesus says no one will strip his sheep from his hand that is exactly what it says and what he means. What you are arguing is that Jesus was wrong about that and while no one can strip them from his hands, those who are there can elect to bail out. That isn't possible either. Those who bail on their salvation were never in his hand in the first place. Jesus, as he said, never knew them.
How do you argue that Jesus is mistaken about that?

No one will be able to rip you from Jesus hand.

No one is strong enough to take believers away from Jesus.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

However, if you decide of your own free will to turn away from the living God, because you yourself became hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, and became entangled again in the bondage you were set free from and overcome...


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14

We have become partakers of Christ IF.... we remain steadfast to the end.

The beginning...steadfast to the end!

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

And again -


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Please consider these verses as well as the ones you listed, that you may reconcile them together as the whole counsel of God.


If their is any doubt in your mind as to what the phrase "inherit or not inherit the kingdom of God" means, then let's please discuss it.


The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you
May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

No it doesn't. There were many who followed Jesus, and for various reasons. One reason what that He was quite the provider of eats when crowds were hungry. Jn 6:26. Other reasons were for miracles, healings, etc. But when His teaching got quite personal, many quit following. John 6:60, 64, 66.


You have no idea who believed and then fell away. Some clearly never believed in Him for eternal life. Not good to make blanket assumptions.


Sure. So, are you OSAS or non-OSAS? From that comment, it appears that you're OSAS.

God made Judas for his purpose. He made Judas a disciple.

What if God made Judas believe so that Judas would become a disciple, and then he let Judas betray Jesus - for by his very nature, being a devil, Judas could not do otherwise.

No. I'm a servant of God.

Let me ask you a question. Those who swerve from the truth and teach falsehood, are they saved, though what they teach may be false? Were they ever saved?

 

[MarkT]

You're both right. The prophetic word is they won't fall away. No one can snatch the sheep from the Father. But that's not to say the many who are not his won't fall away. The difference is between the few and the many, the few who find the way and the many who don't, who fall away.

 

[smaller]

Are you sinless? I did notice a few posts back that you were not having much success with your sin until you figured out that you were sealed with Satan.

Which indwelling influence are you posting from?

No man other than God Himself in flesh was or will be sinless. I respect the Divine Paradox of our Sovereign's Decrees.

 

[smaller]

We have become partakers of Christ IF.... we remain steadfast to the end.

The non-OSAS adherents stand on their own IF, which is beyond any doubt entirely worthless.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These believed for a while the fell away.


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

if they fall away...to renew them again to repentance.

And again -
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Hebrews 3:12-14
we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Steadfast to the end.
Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13
Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, but turn away... Have become unbelievers.
They have fallen away, and it's impossible for them to be renewed unto repentance, for they have put the Son of God to an open shame.
We are required to remain steadfast unto the end... For the end of our faith is the salvation of our soul. JLB

Like I said, you have no support from Scripture about loss of salvation. Your view has been refuted by clear verses that tell us that God's gift is eternal life (Rom 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable. End of discussion.

These verses demonstrate your misunderstanding of the verses that you only think are about loss of salvation.

In addition to the verses about God's gifts being irrevocable, those who have believed have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption as a promise by God, we have Jesus' very words that those who have believed are His sheep, and are secure in the Father's hand.

God has promised eternal security to those who have believed, regardless of what happens in the future, per Rom 8:38.

But, sadly, a number of believers have chosen to reject the truth of Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

God made Judas for his purpose. He made Judas a disciple.

Yes, Judas was one of the 12 chosen. Jn 6:70

What if God made Judas believe so that Judas would become a disciple, and then he let Judas betray Jesus - for by his very nature, being a devil, Judas could not do otherwise.

I don't deal in the "what ifs…" type of question. My focus and concern is on the "what is…" issues. And your scenario suggests that your view is Calvinistic; that God chooses how men will turn out. I don't believe that because the Bible is clear about human choice and accountability.

Think about this: if God were choosing how men turn out, all accountability would be on Him. Yet, He holds us accountable for our own actions.

Let me ask you a question. Those who swerve from the truth and teach falsehood, are they saved, though what they teach may be false? Were they ever saved?

Depends on what is meant by "swerve from the truth". What I believe is this: those who have placed their full trust alone in Christ alone for eternal life are saved. They may become involved in false doctrines, which shouldn't be too surprising, given that the devil has "deceived the whole world" (1 Jn 5:19).

 

[FreeGrace]

You're both right. The prophetic word is they won't fall away. No one can snatch the sheep from the Father. But that's not to say the many who are not his won't fall away. The difference is between the few and the many, the few who find the way and the many who don't, who fall away.

Actually, Jesus Himself noted in the parable of the soils that the second soil "believed for a while and in time of temptation, fell away". Just after He said of the first soil, "lest they believe and be saved".

So Jesus acknowledged that anyone who believes is saved, and in the next breath indicated that some will believe for a while and then fall away.

The idea that all saved people will persevere to the end isn't found in Scripture. It's a very nice idea, but has no support from the Bible. In fact, believers are commanded to "continue in the faith" and "remain true to the faith". This alone proves that the "perseverance of the saints" isn't Biblically based.

 

[MarkT]

Like I said, you have no support from Scripture about loss of salvation. Your view has been refuted by clear verses that tell us that God's gift is eternal life (Rom 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable. End of discussion.

These verses demonstrate your misunderstanding of the verses that you only think are about loss of salvation.

In addition to the verses about God's gifts being irrevocable, those who have believed have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption as a promise by God, we have Jesus' very words that those who have believed are His sheep, and are secure in the Father's hand.

God has promised eternal security to those who have believed, regardless of what happens in the future, per Rom 8:38.

But, sadly, a number of believers have chosen to reject the truth of Scripture.

But you say they are still saved even though they have fallen away?

 

[smaller]

But you say they are still saved even though they have fallen away?

In every non-OSAS camp they have set innumerable false standards of what constitutes 'falling away.' There was never any tangible proof that any of us are 'in faith' nor is there any tangible standard that says we are not in faith. The non-OSAS camps have set standards whereby they assure themselves in various ways, but that is the best they can offer. Temporary reasonable assurance at best, established by their ever elusive and always various measures and standards.

Everyone of us for example who are not RCC members would be considered by the Roman prelates to have fallen away from the faith. Yet the entire camp of many millions of them have no idea if they are saved or not. Their faith provides them ZERO security. Only reasonable assurance as their prelates have dictated IF they believe who? Yeah, some other guys.

When I left the charismatic movement many of my friends considered that I had abandoned the faith when I merely abandoned associations with blatant liars.

Such impositions are all false measures to begin with. And are easily proven to be false measures.

In the non-OSAS camps one can teach a parrot how to be a christian by parroting the establishments of their standards.

 

[JLB]

Like I said, you have no support from Scripture about loss of salvation. Your view has been refuted by clear verses that tell us that God's gift is eternal life (Rom 6:23), and that God's gifts are irrevocable. End of discussion.

These verses demonstrate your misunderstanding of the verses that you only think are about loss of salvation.

In addition to the verses about God's gifts being irrevocable, those who have believed have been sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption as a promise by God, we have Jesus' very words that those who have believed are His sheep, and are secure in the Father's hand.

God has promised eternal security to those who have believed, regardless of what happens in the future, per Rom 8:38.

But, sadly, a number of believers have chosen to reject the truth of Scripture.

The scriptures I posted speak clearly and plainly to those with ears to hear.

If you choose to reject the truth that the scriptures teach concerning "enduring to the end" or "remaining steadfast to the end to be a PARTAKER of Christ" or those who believe for awhile, the no longer believe.... Then you are building on the solid rock of what Jesus said, but the shifting sand of man made doctrine.

What's worse, is that you are teaching this unscriptural doctrine to others which we are also warned against.



19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

 

[smaller]

The scriptures I posted speak clearly and plainly to those with ears to hear.

If you choose to reject the truth that the scriptures teach concerning "enduring to the end" or "remaining steadfast to the end to be a PARTAKER of Christ" or those who believe for awhile, the no longer believe.... Then you are building on the solid rock of what Jesus said, but the shifting sand of man made doctrine.

What's worse, is that you are teaching this unscriptural doctrine to others which we are also warned against.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

What it usually comes down to in the non-OSAS camps is this: You might be saved IF you believe 'like me.'

I find their messages inherently pathological and their members endlessly personally threatening.

There is always one waiting to pounce on a persons eternal fate.

They wait in line to destroy others.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, Judas was one of the 12 chosen. Jn 6:70


I don't deal in the "what ifs…" type of question. My focus and concern is on the "what is…" issues. And your scenario suggests that your view is Calvinistic; that God chooses how men will turn out. I don't believe that because the Bible is clear about human choice and accountability.

Think about this: if God were choosing how men turn out, all accountability would be on Him. Yet, He holds us accountable for our own actions.

Accountable for sin yes. But you are what you are, and in the case of Judas, he was a devil.

Depends on what is meant by "swerve from the truth". What I believe is this: those who have placed their full trust alone in Christ alone for eternal life are saved. They may become involved in false doctrines, which shouldn't be too surprising, given that the devil has "deceived the whole world" (1 Jn 5:19).

Sorry but you have to be born again.

 

[smaller]

Accountable for sin yes. But you are what you are, and in the case of Judas, he was a devil.

You have obviously sat under some very BAD teaching on that count.

It is true that Satan 'entered' Judas. So let's see the real devil stand up and not be so apt to misread what happened to Judas and just see Judas or any person as a devil where there is a real devil to observe.

 

[smaller]

Are you sinless? I did notice a few posts back that you were not having much success with your sin until you figured out that you were sealed with Satan.

Which indwelling influence are you posting from?

You'll have to play your game with someone else. I don't buy lies from anyone.

All have sin. Sin is of the devil. I admit it. Most don't or should I say? Can't?

 

[FreeGrace]

But you say they are still saved even though they have fallen away?

The falling away refers to their faith, not their salvation.

Plus, eternal life is a gift, per Rom 6:23. And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

Plus, when a person believes, they are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit as a seal (pledge) for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30, and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

These verses all guarantee that one who believes is forever sealed for the day of redemption and their eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

The scriptures I posted speak clearly and plainly to those with ears to hear.

If you choose to reject the truth that the scriptures teach concerning "enduring to the end" or "remaining steadfast to the end to be a PARTAKER of Christ" or those who believe for awhile, the no longer believe.... Then you are building on the solid rock of what Jesus said, but the shifting sand of man made doctrine.

I choose to believe what is very clearly stated: that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. That the Holy Spirit is given as a seal/pledge/promise for the day of redemption. These things are irrefutable. I'm not the one who rejects the truth.

What's worse, is that you are teaching this unscriptural doctrine to others which we are also warned against.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

I've already explained this passage to you. But your ears are closed.

just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Yep. Such believers will not receive any reward in the kingdom. They will be there, but have no ownership with the King.

The Scriptures I've provided flatly refute your loss of salvation view. They prove that your view of the verses that you keep quoting cannot mean what you keep thinking they mean.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"Depends on what is meant by "swerve from the truth". What I believe is this: those who have placed their full trust alone in Christ alone for eternal life are saved. They may become involved in false doctrines, which shouldn't be too surprising, given that the devil has "deceived the whole world" (1 Jn 5:19)."

Sorry but you have to be born again.

When a person places their full trust alone in Christ alone for eternal life, they are saved AND born again. Jn 1:12

 

[MarkT]

Actually, Jesus Himself noted in the parable of the soils that the second soil "believed for a while and in time of temptation, fell away". Just after He said of the first soil, "lest they believe and be saved".

So Jesus acknowledged that anyone who believes is saved, and in the next breath indicated that some will believe for a while and then fall away.

Are you referring to Mt.13? Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. So Isa. was fulfilled with them.

The one who hears the word and understands it, he will bear fruit.

The idea that all saved people will persevere to the end isn't found in Scripture. It's a very nice idea, but has no support from the Bible. In fact, believers are commanded to "continue in the faith" and "remain true to the faith". This alone proves that the "perseverance of the saints" isn't Biblically based.

Well, if they are saved, then how can you say they are not saved? Your logic escapes me. Many will fall away, but Jesus won't lose any of his sheep. One thing does not negate the other.