OSAS The Truth

[WIP]

No one would believe unless God allows them to believe. Until then the god of this world blinds their minds to the Gospel.

People are saved only because God allows them to believe.

God drew out and raised an entire nation of people called Israelites and blinded them to Jesus, on purpose, with Divine Purposes.

Every person of Israel over the age of 20 except for 2 people, even after witnessing Divine Deliverance and a massive number of miracles, still died in the desert because of what?

Unbelief.

Does that mean then that God is going to burn them all in eternal fires of endless hell?

Never. To even think that requires Moses to be in hell.

Sounds like only one of two possibilities are left.
1. God chooses who will believe, if they will believe, when they will belief and by what means their believe will be manifest. Therefore the responsibility, blame, liability, fault, and guilt for unbelief and evil in this world rests squarely on God's shoulders alone removing the need for a savior and therefore reducing Christ's sacrifice to nothing.

OR

2. Everyone will be saved regardless of what they say, do, think, or believe. Again, removing the need for a savior and therefore reducing Christ's sacrifice to nothing.

Sorry, I can't buy either possibility.

Before one can believe, it seems we must take that first step of faith as I said earlier. Will God give us the ability to believe if we don't first trust Him?

 

[Gregg]

So faith comes by the human function of hearing

That is a misunderstanding of how faith comes, of both the Agency and the hearing of it. Does a man only read the Scriptures out loud to himself, or does he hear with the heart as he reads [as the LORD opens his heart to understand the love and grace of God]?

"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' [that is, the word of faith which we proclaim]" (Rom 10:8, see Deut. 30:12-14).

It is not a human function whereby the word of God enters into our heart; nor is faith conceived by natural means. But the Spirit of God is the Agent who unites the word of God with faith; and this is not in the flesh of a man or alone through physical hearing, but in the heart. It is the heart and soul that believes.

The LORD opens our eyes and ears, and closes them as well; and hardens the hearts of men.

the word spoken from heaven, be it by Messiah himself, an angel, or those who witnessed these words spoken. Faith is not miraclously bestowed and maintained by God in our lives. We are responsible to 'listen' and 'repent'. Why else did Jesus continually say 'you are forgiven your sins, no go sin no more (repent)'?

Does a man listen to the Holy Spirit with physical ears in order to understand the truth of God, or does a man listen with spiritual ears and see with enlightened eyes? The later of course. We will not come to know God according to the flesh, not according to the [physical] human function of hearing.

It is God who opens our spiritual eyes and ears, that we may perceive His Word and Light; or does one only recognize Christ according by natural means.

- - -

For the record, in your eyes does God justify a man for eternity? or only for a while?

 

[Deborah13]

Sure, open your mind and say it with me...... inheritance.

A people more numerous than the stars and the sand, a land flowing with milk and honey, a Word (Torah) spoken from heaven an instruction that brings life, a Messiah that redeems us from sins (the life promised Yisrael through the Torah). What gifts has God given Yisrael?? Have you not read the bible?

Genesis 15
1 Some time later the word of ADONAI came to Avram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Avram. I am your protector; your reward will be very great." 2 Avram replied, "ADONAI, God, what good will your gifts be to me if I continue childless; and Eli'ezer from Dammesek inherits my possessions? 3 You haven't given me a child," Avram continued, "so someone born in my house will be my heir." 4 But the word of ADONAI came to him: "This man will not be your heir. No, your heir will be a child from your own body." 5 Then he brought him outside and said, "Look up at the sky, and count the stars - if you can count them! Your descendants will be that many!" 6 He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 22:17 CJB
I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed - because you obeyed my order."

Exodus 6:7 CJB
I will take you as my people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am ADONAI your God, who freed you from the forced labor of the Egyptians.

Leviticus 26:12 CJB
but I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

Deuteronomy 4:20 CJB
No, you ADONAI has taken and brought out of the smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of inheritance for him, as you are today.

Deuteronomy 9:29 CJB
But in fact they are your people, your inheritance, whom you brought out by your great power and your outstretched arm.'

Exodus 6:8 CJB
I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Avraham, Yitz'chak and Ya'akov - I will give it to you as your inheritance. I am ADONAI.'"

Deuteronomy 4:38 CJB
in order to drive out ahead of you nations greater and stronger than you, so that he could bring you in and give you their land as an inheritance, as is the case today;

Deuteronomy 15:4 CJB
In spite of this, there will be no one needy among you; because ADONAI will certainly bless you in the land which ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess -

Deuteronomy 18:2 CJB
They will have no inheritance with their brothers, because ADONAI is their inheritance - as he has said to them.

Deuteronomy 19:10 CJB
so that innocent blood will not be shed in the land ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance, and thus blood guilt be on you.

Deuteronomy 19:14 CJB
"You are not to move your neighbor's boundary marker from the place where people put it long ago, in the inheritance soon to be yours in the land ADONAI your God is giving you to possess.

Deuteronomy 6:17 CJB
17 Observe diligently the mitzvot of ADONAI your God, and his instructions and laws which he has given you. 18 You are to do what is right and good in the sight of ADONAI, so that things will go well with you, and you will enter and possess the good land ADONAI swore to your ancestors, 19 expelling all your enemies ahead of you, as ADONAI said.
20 "Some day your child will ask you, 'What is the meaning of the instructions, laws and rulings which ADONAI our God has laid down for you?' 21 Then you will tell your child, 'We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and ADONAI brought us out of Egypt with a strong hand. 22 ADONAI worked great and terrible signs and wonders against Egypt, Pharaoh and all his household, before our very eyes. 23 He brought us out from there in order to bring us to the land he had sworn to our ancestors that he would give us. 24 ADONAI ordered us to observe all these laws, to fear ADONAI our God, always for our own good, so that he might keep us alive, as we are today.
25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do.'"​

So we see that God swore to gift Abraham that he would make his phyisical seed more numerous than the stars and sand in response to Abraham asking about his 'inheritance'. As well as giving Abraham's inheritance the land. He also gave Yisrael his instructions in love so that by observing all it says, namely that the righteous will live by faith, it would bring us life, in the from of our savior and redeemer Yeshua the Messiah, the holy one of Yisrael, the savior of Yisrael and the world.

What gifts did he give us? Your salvation for one. Salvation is of the Jews, have you not heard?

John 4
21 Yeshua said, "Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don't know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming -- indeed, it's here now -- when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly." 25 The woman replied, "I know that Mashiach is coming" (that is, "the one who has been anointed"). "When he comes, he will tell us everything." 26 Yeshua said to her, "I, the person speaking to you, am he."

John 1:45 CJB
Philip found Natan'el and told him, "We've found the one that Moshe wrote about in the Torah, also the Prophets -- it's Yeshua Ben-Yosef from Natzeret!"​

Without the blessings of God upon Yisrael the nations of the world would never know salvation. Thank God for the gifts he gave to Yisrael! They are your salvation, He is your salvation. The Jesus you attempt to worship and understand is the ultimate gift of God to the world. He came through Yisrael, who was blessed with a promise to forever be the people of God who dwell in a physical land, observing all the words that come out of the mouth of God, made clean and blameless as Messiah lives and rules from within us. And the world is blessed by this.

Ezekiel 37
28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”​

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Kind of eliminates all boasting on both sides.

 

[smaller]

Sure, open your mind and say it with me...... inheritance.

A people more numerous than the stars and the sand, a land flowing with milk and honey, a Word (Torah) spoken from heaven an instruction that brings life, a Messiah that redeems us from sins (the life promised Yisrael through the Torah). What gifts has God given Yisrael?? Have you not read the bible?

Genesis 15
1 Some time later the word of ADONAI came to Avram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Avram. I am your protector; your reward will be very great." 2 Avram replied, "ADONAI, God, what good will your gifts be to me if I continue childless; and Eli'ezer from Dammesek inherits my possessions? 3 You haven't given me a child," Avram continued, "so someone born in my house will be my heir." 4 But the word of ADONAI came to him: "This man will not be your heir. No, your heir will be a child from your own body." 5 Then he brought him outside and said, "Look up at the sky, and count the stars - if you can count them! Your descendants will be that many!" 6 He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 22:17 CJB
I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed - because you obeyed my order."

Exodus 6:7 CJB
I will take you as my people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am ADONAI your God, who freed you from the forced labor of the Egyptians.

Leviticus 26:12 CJB
but I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

Deuteronomy 4:20 CJB
No, you ADONAI has taken and brought out of the smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of inheritance for him, as you are today.

Deuteronomy 9:29 CJB
But in fact they are your people, your inheritance, whom you brought out by your great power and your outstretched arm.'

Exodus 6:8 CJB
I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Avraham, Yitz'chak and Ya'akov - I will give it to you as your inheritance. I am ADONAI.'"

Deuteronomy 4:38 CJB
in order to drive out ahead of you nations greater and stronger than you, so that he could bring you in and give you their land as an inheritance, as is the case today;

Deuteronomy 15:4 CJB
In spite of this, there will be no one needy among you; because ADONAI will certainly bless you in the land which ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess -

Deuteronomy 18:2 CJB
They will have no inheritance with their brothers, because ADONAI is their inheritance - as he has said to them.

Deuteronomy 19:10 CJB
so that innocent blood will not be shed in the land ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance, and thus blood guilt be on you.

Deuteronomy 19:14 CJB
"You are not to move your neighbor's boundary marker from the place where people put it long ago, in the inheritance soon to be yours in the land ADONAI your God is giving you to possess.

Deuteronomy 6:17 CJB
17 Observe diligently the mitzvot of ADONAI your God, and his instructions and laws which he has given you. 18 You are to do what is right and good in the sight of ADONAI, so that things will go well with you, and you will enter and possess the good land ADONAI swore to your ancestors, 19 expelling all your enemies ahead of you, as ADONAI said.
20 "Some day your child will ask you, 'What is the meaning of the instructions, laws and rulings which ADONAI our God has laid down for you?' 21 Then you will tell your child, 'We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and ADONAI brought us out of Egypt with a strong hand. 22 ADONAI worked great and terrible signs and wonders against Egypt, Pharaoh and all his household, before our very eyes. 23 He brought us out from there in order to bring us to the land he had sworn to our ancestors that he would give us. 24 ADONAI ordered us to observe all these laws, to fear ADONAI our God, always for our own good, so that he might keep us alive, as we are today.
25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do.'"​

So we see that God swore to gift Abraham that he would make his phyisical seed more numerous than the stars and sand in response to Abraham asking about his 'inheritance'. As well as giving Abraham's inheritance the land. He also gave Yisrael his instructions in love so that by observing all it says, namely that the righteous will live by faith, it would bring us life, in the from of our savior and redeemer Yeshua the Messiah, the holy one of Yisrael, the savior of Yisrael and the world.

What gifts did he give us? Your salvation for one. Salvation is of the Jews, have you not heard?

John 4
21 Yeshua said, "Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don't know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming -- indeed, it's here now -- when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly." 25 The woman replied, "I know that Mashiach is coming" (that is, "the one who has been anointed"). "When he comes, he will tell us everything." 26 Yeshua said to her, "I, the person speaking to you, am he."

John 1:45 CJB
Philip found Natan'el and told him, "We've found the one that Moshe wrote about in the Torah, also the Prophets -- it's Yeshua Ben-Yosef from Natzeret!"​

Without the blessings of God upon Yisrael the nations of the world would never know salvation. Thank God for the gifts he gave to Yisrael! They are your salvation, He is your salvation. The Jesus you attempt to worship and understand is the ultimate gift of God to the world. He came through Yisrael, who was blessed with a promise to forever be the people of God who dwell in a physical land, observing all the words that come out of the mouth of God, made clean and blameless as Messiah lives and rules from within us. And the world is blessed by this.

Ezekiel 37
28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”​

I believe that ALL of Israel shall be saved, just as Paul dictated to us in Romans 11:25-32. Even if they are/were enemies of the Gospel.

God has PROMISED this. God WILL deliver.

How will this delivery come upon our world? When God in Christ takes away their sin as a reality in this present life.

How will that happen?

When God in Christ destroys the devil and his messengers from within the hearts of all people.

This, I believe. This He Himself has promised.

His Love is the fire of destruction to our enemies.

 

[Shimshon]

That is a misunderstanding of how faith comes, of both the Agency and the hearing of it. Does a man only read the Scriptures out loud to himself, or does he hear with the heart as he reads [as the LORD opens his heart to understand the love and grace of God]?

"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' [that is, the word of faith which we proclaim]" (Rom 10:8, see Deut. 30:12-14).

It is not a human function whereby the word of God enters into our heart; nor is faith conceived by natural means. But the Spirit of God is the Agent who unites the word of God with faith; and this is not in the flesh of a man or alone through physical hearing, but in the heart. It is the heart and soul that believes.

The LORD opens our eyes and ears, and closes them as well; and hardens the hearts of men.



Does a man listen to the Holy Spirit with physical ears in order to understand the truth of God, or does a man listen with spiritual ears and see with enlightened eyes? The later of course. We will not come to know God according to the flesh, not according to the [physical] human function of hearing.

It is God who opens our spiritual eyes and ears, that we may perceive His Word and Light; or does one only recognize Christ according by natural means.

- - -

For the record, in your eyes does God justify a man for eternity? or only for a while?

I notice how you thought I was only understanding hearing in a physical sense. As you have described it's a mix of using ears to hear vocal words, or eyes to see written words, and then the spirit who writes the message upon our hearts.

ETA: I think it's more that we are misunderstanding each other again.

 

[Shimshon]

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Kind of eliminates all boasting on both sides.

There shouldn't be any boasting, agreed. But the doctrine of supersessionism that has completely engulfed Christendom is one huge boast against the natural branches.

 

[smaller]

Sounds like only one of two possibilities are left.
1. God chooses who will believe, if they will believe, when they will belief and by what means their believe will be manifest. Therefore the responsibility, blame, liability, fault, and guilt for unbelief and evil in this world rests squarely on God's shoulders alone removing the need for a savior and therefore reducing Christ's sacrifice to nothing.

I do not believe that God in Christ is 'only' made 'effective' by the decision of a man. To me that is a ridiculous notion altogether.

OR

2. Everyone will be saved regardless of what they say, do, think, or believe. Again, removing the need for a savior and therefore reducing Christ's sacrifice to nothing.

Sorry, I can't buy either possibility.

To get at the heart of unbelief, one is sooner or later led to look at their own heart to understand it.

What they will find upon examination is this:

That God Himself bound all men to disobedience with Divine Intentions. Romans 11:32

That God Himself has bound us all in bodies and minds that are:

A. Corrupted
B. Weak
C. Dishonorable
D. Natural
E. Subject to incursion by the Tempter via theft of The Word from our hearts and temptations of various sorts.

No man can come before God unless and until God in Christ Himself calls them out of their sinning blindness and their subjugation to the god of this world.

Before one can believe, it seems we must take that first step of faith as I said earlier. Will God give us the ability to believe if we don't first trust Him?

I have yet to witness Christ to any person and have them come away as an unbeliever.

It's only a question of how much the WITNESS wants to place in their way to make them STUMBLE.

 

[Shimshon]

I believe that ALL of Israel shall be saved, just as Paul dictated to us in Romans 11:25-32. Even if they are/were enemies of the Gospel.

God has PROMISED this. God WILL deliver.

How will this delivery come upon our world? When God in Christ takes away their sin as a reality in this present life.

How will that happen?

When God in Christ destroys the devil and his messengers from within the hearts of all people.

This, I believe. This He Himself has promised.

His Love is the fire of destruction to our enemies.

You're one of the few I find smaller. But yes, God has promised, it will happen. Moses and the prophets all speak of it.

As I have said before:
The prophets speak of the return of the remnant of Israel. And in those texts, the return of the King and the connection to the new covenant are inextricably linked.

 

[smaller]

You're one of the few I find smaller. But yes, God has promised, it will happen. Moses and the prophets all speak of it.

As I have said before:
The prophets speak of the return of the remnant of Israel. And in those texts, the return of the King and the connection to the new covenant are inextricably linked.

Who or what is Israel is a unique question.

When we examine Israel of the flesh, past or present, we WILL find all of them who do not know Jesus Christ as being bound with the spirit of stupor or spiritual blindness. We also find this condition as the condition of every one who does not believe.

Jesus told us exactly how this happens right here:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Who then is NOT Israel, but is WITH or within Israel or any other unbeliever?

For me the answer to this equation is most obvious.

But this answer will stick in the craw of everyone who reads it because they do NOT and can NOT accept that it also happens within THEMselves. Because the god of this world runs a very effective blockade within the minds of all of us.

God can over run and even utterly destroy the enemy anytime He feels like it. Were God in Christ to 'take away' the BLINDER right here, right now, today, everyone would INSTANTLY believe.

Yet He does NOT. God in Christ Himself has decreed this to be our lot in this present life.

We are all seeded and planted in the darkness of this present wicked world. We just have a hard time seeing it. Or even an impossible time seeing it.

But for some, they will see. These are the remnant of Israel upon the earth today in the spiritual sense.

I could write for days on this subject, but I think you might see the point.

Israel is the fate of every man. Israel means GOD PREVAILS.

He will prevail for ISRAEL.

He will DESTROY that which is NOT Israel when the TIME comes.

 

[smaller]

dup

 

[Gregg]

I notice how you thought I was only understanding hearing in a physical sense. As you have described it's a mix of using ears to hear vocal words, or eyes to see written words, and then the spirit who writes the message upon our hearts. It seems to me your posts continually try to spiritualize everything. The fact your going to have to get past is we are Spirits dancing in the flesh........

We are not (S)pirits dancing in the flesh. Where [on earth] did that come from? However, believers do have the one Spirit of God dwelling within us, and if we should dance for Him . . . then Hallelujah!

And yes, I do spiritualize most everything. I will not know the LORD according to the flesh; but I recognize Him who is resurrected and has ascended to the Father.

There shouldn't be any boasting, agreed. But the doctrine of supersessionism that has completely engulfed Christendom is one huge boast against the natural branches.

Jesus Christ said, "before Abraham came into being, I AM", who came in the flesh; and whose body was resurrected as the efficient cause of our justification (Rom 4:25). Because of that One we have peace with God (Rom 5:1), and continue to stand in His grace (Rom 5:2, see Rom 3:24). That justification, the righteousness of God, is imparted to the believer upon his believing into Christ. Neither the Righteousness One, nor His imputed righteousness ever departs from the believer. For the believer has been set into the body of Christ by the Hand of God, and is for that reason he is continually covered by the blood of Christ (Rom 5:9).

Anyone born from above is forever reconciled to God in Christ; has peace with Him forever; is saved from His wrath forever; has life eternal [even forever!]. The believer is loved by God always, justified by Christ, forgiven, declared "Innocent!", born from above, stands in grace, has access to God's throne, is a pillar that will never depart from the true Temple of God.

Yes, I spiritualize almost everything . . . as what among these heavenly things will my flesh know or come to know. I am a citizen in the kingdom of God, of heaven. The LORD saved me, continues to save me, and He will save me - all based upon the work of God in Christ.

 

[Shimshon]

We are not (S)pirits dancing in the flesh. Where [on earth] did that come from? However, believers do have the one Spirit of God dwelling within us, and if we should dance for Him . . . then Hallelujah!

And yes, I do spiritualize most everything. I will not know the LORD according to the flesh; but I recognize Him who is resurrected and has ascended to the Father.



Jesus Christ said, "before Abraham came into being, I AM", who came in the flesh; and whose body was resurrected as the efficient cause of our justification (Rom 4:25). Because of that One we have peace with God (Rom 5:1), and continue to stand in His grace (Rom 5:2, see Rom 3:24). That justification, the righteousness of God, is imparted to the believer upon his believing into Christ. Neither the Righteousness One, nor His imputed righteousness ever departs from the believer. For the believer has been set into the body of Christ by the Hand of God, and is for that reason he is continually covered by the blood of Christ (Rom 5:9).

Anyone born from above is forever reconciled to God in Christ; has peace with Him forever; is saved from His wrath forever; has life eternal [even forever!]. The believer is loved by God always, justified by Christ, forgiven, declared "Innocent!", born from above, stands in grace, has access to God's throne, is a pillar that will never depart from the true Temple of God.

Yes, I spiritualize almost everything . . . as what among these heavenly things will my flesh know or come to know. I am a citizen in the kingdom of God, of heaven. The LORD saved me, continues to save me, and He will save me - all based upon the work of God in Christ.

It always amazes me how people here are refuting what I say only to approve of it in their own understanding. Yes, believers are indwelt with the Spirit of God, while living in the flesh. Much reason to dance.

So you don't believe in the world to come heaven comes down to earth?

Rev 21
2 Also I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, "See! God's Sh'khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God.
​

Considering the host of scripture I just posted in regards to who the people of God are and the irrevocable promises gifted her, who do you think his people are? Who is the prepared bride beautifully dressed for her husband? I believe it's the remnant of Yisrael, and the nations of the world are blessed because of this. All who have come through the fire with us. All who believed this glorious promise given Yisrael. That our Messiah would come and bannish ungodliness from Jacob and our King would come and establish his covenant with us, an everlasting covenant promised before time, to our fathers. I don't see many Christians believing this truth, because of the doctrine of supersessionism.

 

[Gregg]

It always amazes me how people here are refuting what I say only to approve of it in their own understanding. Yes, believers are indwelt with the Spirit of God, while living in the flesh. Much reason to dance.

So you don't believe in the world to come heaven comes down to earth?

Rev 21
2 Also I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, "See! God's Sh'khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God.
​

Considering the host of scripture I just posted in regards to who the people of God are and the irrevocable promises gifted her, who do you think his people are? Who is the prepared bride beautifully dressed for her husband? I believe it's the remnant of Yisrael, and the nations of the world are blessed because of this. All who have come through the fire with us. All who believed this glorious promise given Yisrael. That our Messiah would come and bannish ungodliness from Jacob and our King would come and establish his covenant with us, an everlasting covenant promised before time, to our fathers. I don't see many Christians believing this truth, because of the doctrine of supersessionism.

A response to Rev 21 belongs on another thread.

I appreciate Israel and his fathers according to the flesh. Their history is my history, but His story goes back much farther.

I worship the One who existed before the fathers of Israel. I worship the One who promised salvation for gentiles to Abram. I worship the One who gave the Law, desiring to live by His every word - even His words which preceded Moses. I serve the One who sits on a throne, but not the throne itself. I love and serve the One who proclaimed that His kingdom was not of this realm, but a heavenly one.

Gentiles are not blessed because of the nation of Israel, we are blessed because of the One who created Israel, and carried Israel, and did not completely destroy Israel. Gentiles are blessed by the One who made promises regarding all mankind while Adam was yet alive . . . even in the heart of God before the world was; whose many gifts and one calling are without regret.

 

[FreeGrace]

When your "explanation" opposes what the scripture says, then you should rethink your "explanation.

I don't recall that you ever refuted my explanation, or explain the verses that directly show that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Can one expect an explanation or not?

This scripture does not mention imputed righteousness and eternal life.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

You "added" the irrevocable gift of eternal life, to this verse.

That makes "your explanation" completely invalid.

So, let me understand this: Rom 6:23 has no connection with 11:29. Is that correct? Why haven't you yet explained what the gifts of 11:29 refer to, then? Can you?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

Gift - Strong's Number: 1435 - Doron
a gift, present

1. gifts offered in expression of honour
   1. of sacrifices and other gifts offered to God
   2. of money cast into the treasury for the purposes of the temple and for the support of the poor

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Yep, that would be salvation, or eternal life.

Thanks for finding even more Scripture to support my view of 11:29. Salvation is a gift from God. And Rom11:29 says God's gifts are irrevocable.

grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit

The issue is gifts, not grace, per se. But regardless, these are things that God does not revoke. What is your point?

These verses do not share the same Greek word for gift.

So then, why do you bring it up?

You, on the other hand, have acted as if they are the same Greek word.

Before you get too comfortable in what you thought was a "gotcha", please note that the very SAME WORD for "gift" is found in both Rom 6:23 which says that eternal life is a gift, and Rom 11:29 which says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You might as well surrender. You've still proven nothing yet, and worse (for you), you've made my point about what the gift refers to in Rom 11:29. The SAME WORD is in 6:23 which refers to eternal life.

[QUOTE[You have misrepresented the word of God in favor of your pet doctrine, and have not taken into account the whole counsel of God that all the scriptures teach.[/QUOTE]
In fact, I have taken the whole counsel of God into account. Which you have not done. And your post supports the view that eternal life is irrevocable. I thank you for that.

Bringing Eph 2:8 into the discussion was totally irrelevant to OSAS.

No where in God's word does it say "God gives us the irrevocable gift of eternal life".

One more time:
1. eternal life is a gift, per Rom 6:23. The word is "charisma".
2. God's gift (charisma) is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.
3. When are you going to realize this?

 

[FreeGrace]

Read my post #96 in the thread. Scripture shows us as it pertains to Paul that it was not just Paul in his flesh. There was also a messenger of Satan, that would be a wicked evil angel, in his flesh.

Paul was saved, OSAS.

The messenger of Satan, uh, the exact opposite.

Who reigns over who is really the only question.

Not regarding the issue of OSAS.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, the text is staring you in the face. Care to post the verse Paul clearl and specifically defined who the called are?

Sure. Be happy to. Rom 1:5,6,7 and 8:28,30.

Messiah came from Zion and will banish ungodliness from Jacob and will make a covenant with Yisrael that takes our sins away. What gifts? It is a tree of life for those who grasp it, happy are they who hold it fast. Length of days is on it's right and glory on it's left. It's ways are pleasantness and it's roads are peace.

Please demonstrate from Scripture where the tree of life is called a gift. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sure, open your mind and say it with me...... inheritance.

A people more numerous than the stars and the sand, a land flowing with milk and honey, a Word (Torah) spoken from heaven an instruction that brings life, a Messiah that redeems us from sins (the life promised Yisrael through the Torah). What gifts has God given Yisrael?? Have you not read the bible?

Genesis 15
1 Some time later the word of ADONAI came to Avram in a vision: "Don't be afraid, Avram. I am your protector; your reward will be very great." 2 Avram replied, "ADONAI, God, what good will your gifts be to me if I continue childless; and Eli'ezer from Dammesek inherits my possessions? 3 You haven't given me a child," Avram continued, "so someone born in my house will be my heir." 4 But the word of ADONAI came to him: "This man will not be your heir. No, your heir will be a child from your own body." 5 Then he brought him outside and said, "Look up at the sky, and count the stars - if you can count them! Your descendants will be that many!" 6 He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 22:17 CJB
I will most certainly bless you; and I will most certainly increase your descendants to as many as there are stars in the sky or grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will possess the cities of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed - because you obeyed my order."

Exodus 6:7 CJB
I will take you as my people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am ADONAI your God, who freed you from the forced labor of the Egyptians.

Leviticus 26:12 CJB
but I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

Deuteronomy 4:20 CJB
No, you ADONAI has taken and brought out of the smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be a people of inheritance for him, as you are today.

Deuteronomy 9:29 CJB
But in fact they are your people, your inheritance, whom you brought out by your great power and your outstretched arm.'

Exodus 6:8 CJB
I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Avraham, Yitz'chak and Ya'akov - I will give it to you as your inheritance. I am ADONAI.'"

Deuteronomy 4:38 CJB
in order to drive out ahead of you nations greater and stronger than you, so that he could bring you in and give you their land as an inheritance, as is the case today;

Deuteronomy 15:4 CJB
In spite of this, there will be no one needy among you; because ADONAI will certainly bless you in the land which ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess -

Deuteronomy 18:2 CJB
They will have no inheritance with their brothers, because ADONAI is their inheritance - as he has said to them.

Deuteronomy 19:10 CJB
so that innocent blood will not be shed in the land ADONAI your God is giving you as an inheritance, and thus blood guilt be on you.

Deuteronomy 19:14 CJB
"You are not to move your neighbor's boundary marker from the place where people put it long ago, in the inheritance soon to be yours in the land ADONAI your God is giving you to possess.

Deuteronomy 6:17 CJB
17 Observe diligently the mitzvot of ADONAI your God, and his instructions and laws which he has given you. 18 You are to do what is right and good in the sight of ADONAI, so that things will go well with you, and you will enter and possess the good land ADONAI swore to your ancestors, 19 expelling all your enemies ahead of you, as ADONAI said.
20 "Some day your child will ask you, 'What is the meaning of the instructions, laws and rulings which ADONAI our God has laid down for you?' 21 Then you will tell your child, 'We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and ADONAI brought us out of Egypt with a strong hand. 22 ADONAI worked great and terrible signs and wonders against Egypt, Pharaoh and all his household, before our very eyes. 23 He brought us out from there in order to bring us to the land he had sworn to our ancestors that he would give us. 24 ADONAI ordered us to observe all these laws, to fear ADONAI our God, always for our own good, so that he might keep us alive, as we are today.
25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before ADONAI our God, just as he ordered us to do.'"​

So we see that God swore to gift Abraham that he would make his phyisical seed more numerous than the stars and sand in response to Abraham asking about his 'inheritance'. As well as giving Abraham's inheritance the land. He also gave Yisrael his instructions in love so that by observing all it says, namely that the righteous will live by faith, it would bring us life, in the from of our savior and redeemer Yeshua the Messiah, the holy one of Yisrael, the savior of Yisrael and the world.

What gifts did he give us? Your salvation for one. Salvation is of the Jews, have you not heard?

John 4
21 Yeshua said, "Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don't know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming -- indeed, it's here now -- when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly." 25 The woman replied, "I know that Mashiach is coming" (that is, "the one who has been anointed"). "When he comes, he will tell us everything." 26 Yeshua said to her, "I, the person speaking to you, am he."

John 1:45 CJB
Philip found Natan'el and told him, "We've found the one that Moshe wrote about in the Torah, also the Prophets -- it's Yeshua Ben-Yosef from Natzeret!"​

Without the blessings of God upon Yisrael the nations of the world would never know salvation. Thank God for the gifts he gave to Yisrael! They are your salvation, He is your salvation. The Jesus you attempt to worship and understand is the ultimate gift of God to the world. He came through Yisrael, who was blessed with a promise to forever be the people of God who dwell in a physical land, observing all the words that come out of the mouth of God, made clean and blameless as Messiah lives and rules from within us. And the world is blessed by this.

Ezekiel 37
28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”​

​

Why do you think that "inheritance" means "gift"? Not a single verse you cited, nor any other, calls God's inheritance a gift.

 

[Shimshon]

​

Why do you think that "inheritance" means "gift"? Not a single verse you cited, nor any other, calls God's inheritance a gift.

Yes, I realized you can't see it at all. But it's there for you to discover.

 

[dadof10]

Read my post #96 in the thread. Scripture shows us as it pertains to Paul that it was not just Paul in his flesh. There was also a messenger of Satan, that would be a wicked evil angel, in his flesh.

Paul was saved, OSAS.

The messenger of Satan, uh, the exact opposite.

Who reigns over who is really the only question.

As it pertains to OSAS two entirely different and opposed positions would apply to Paul and the messenger of Satan.

Was Paul entirely OSAS? No. In his flesh there was an entity that was not Paul as well who was/is/remains eternally damned and whom God opposed/opposes.

Now go sort out the chips.

Oh, that's right. I remember your "thorn in the flesh=devils who are responsible for sin" theology, which trumps all other biblical research in your mind. I'm trying to get a logical answer to my question concerning James' "shown to be righteous" relating to OSAS. I have laid it out and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with tempers who take all the blame for sin so you can go to Heaven. I'll pass on "sorting out the chips", thanks.

 

[JLB]

I don't recall that you ever refuted my explanation, or explain the verses that directly show that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Can one expect an explanation or not?


So, let me understand this: Rom 6:23 has no connection with 11:29. Is that correct? Why haven't you yet explained what the gifts of 11:29 refer to, then? Can you?


Yep, that would be salvation, or eternal life.

Thanks for finding even more Scripture to support my view of 11:29. Salvation is a gift from God. And Rom11:29 says God's gifts are irrevocable.


The issue is gifts, not grace, per se. But regardless, these are things that God does not revoke. What is your point?


So then, why do you bring it up?


Before you get too comfortable in what you thought was a "gotcha", please note that the very SAME WORD for "gift" is found in both Rom 6:23 which says that eternal life is a gift, and Rom 11:29 which says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

You might as well surrender. You've still proven nothing yet, and worse (for you), you've made my point about what the gift refers to in Rom 11:29. The SAME WORD is in 6:23 which refers to eternal life.

[QUOTE[You have misrepresented the word of God in favor of your pet doctrine, and have not taken into account the whole counsel of God that all the scriptures teach.

In fact, I have taken the whole counsel of God into account. Which you have not done. And your post supports the view that eternal life is irrevocable. I thank you for that.

Bringing Eph 2:8 into the discussion was totally irrelevant to OSAS.


One more time:
1. eternal life is a gift, per Rom 6:23. The word is "charisma".
2. God's gift (charisma) is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.
3. When are you going to realize this?[/QUOTE]


Everything you write is your opinion, with a scripture "tag".


This whole post will not be responded to.

If you are interested is discussing what the scriptures themselves have to actually say, then post a scripture and we can discuss that scripture.

OSAS is no where to be found anywhere in the bible.

It is a man made doctrine that people with itching ears want to hear.



JLB