OSAS The Truth

[smaller]

Oh, that's right. I remember your "thorn in the flesh=devils who are responsible for sin" theology, which trumps all other biblical research in your mind. I'm trying to get a logical answer to my question concerning James' "shown to be righteous" relating to OSAS. I have laid it out and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with tempers who take all the blame for sin so you can go to Heaven. I'll pass on "sorting out the chips", thanks.

Read it however you can or can't.

Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Paul was saved.

The messenger of Satan, NOT.

Therefore the extension of OSAS did NOT apply to the entirety of Paul, nor does it to any believer.

There, the line is drawn upon every believer.

As to 'your' claim that the entrance of Satan into the mind and heart to STEAL and to TEMPT has no bearing on these subjects, what can I say to that other than you miss the obvious because you can't touch it with your hands, taste it in your mouth, see it with your eyes, hear it with your ears, smell it with your nose.

The matter is beyond the 5 senses and purposefully HIDDEN by God against all flesh men.

 

[smaller]

Not regarding the issue of OSAS.

OSAS has it's obvious limitations. Grace and Mercy were never extended to the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh. Nor was it extended to the 'evil present' with Paul or the sin that indwelt his flesh.

None of OSAS or any good and gracious gift of God goes in that direction.

Never happened. Never will.

God stands against every man in the same way.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, I realized you can't see it at all. But it's there for you to discover.

I can't see it because NO verse calls God's inheritance a gift. It is clear you are "seeing" things. That aren't there. Maybe you'll discover that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I posted this:

"In fact, I have taken the whole counsel of God into account. Which you have not done. And your post supports the view that eternal life is irrevocable. I thank you for that.

Bringing Eph 2:8 into the discussion was totally irrelevant to OSAS.

One more time:
1. eternal life is a gift, per Rom 6:23. The word is "charisma".
2. God's gift (charisma) is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.
3. When are you going to realize this?"

Everything you write is your opinion, with a scripture "tag".

No, Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 use the SAME WORD for "gift" and you call this my opinion?????

This whole post will not be responded to.

Because, quite frankly, you have no answer for the truth.

If you are interested is discussing what the scriptures themselves have to actually say, then post a scripture and we can discuss that scripture.

Done that. Why won't you interact with these verses that call eternal life a gift and that God's gifts (SAME WORD as in 6:23) are irrevocable, per 11:29?

OSAS is no where to be found anywhere in the bible.

You have closed your eyes to truth. So very sad.

It is a man made doctrine that people with itching ears want to hear.JLB

God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. That is irrefutable. You've proven that your view is unbiblical.

You have flatly denied the truth of Scripture. But your denials don't change the truth at all.

You tried to refute me by bringing in Eph 2:8, which uses a different word for gift than is found in Rom 11:29. So what?

The point is that Paul used the SAME WORD in 6:23 for "gift" that he did in 11:29, and what do you do? Simply ignore the truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Read it however you can or can't.

Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Paul was saved.

The messenger of Satan, NOT.

Therefore the extension of OSAS did NOT apply to the entirety of Paul, nor does it to any believer.

Why do you keep thinking that anyone would think differently??? Please explain WHY you think anyone would.

There, the line is drawn upon every believer.

Another very vague comment. What is this "line" that you speak of, and why is it relevant to OSAS?

 

[FreeGrace]

OSAS has it's obvious limitations. Grace and Mercy were never extended to the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh.

Of course not. This is irrelevant to the issue of OSAS. So, what are the so-called limitations of OSAS? You've yet to list them.

Nor was it extended to the 'evil present' with Paul or the sin that indwelt his flesh.

Of course not. Why do you even mention what is quite obvious to everyone else???

None of OSAS or any good and gracious gift of God goes in that direction.

Of course not. Why do you even mention what is quite obvious to everyone else???

God stands against every man in the same way.

Another very vague comment. Care to explain what you mean and where you're going here?

What does "in the same way" mean?

 

[JLB]

I posted this:

"In fact, I have taken the whole counsel of God into account. Which you have not done. And your post supports the view that eternal life is irrevocable. I thank you for that.

Bringing Eph 2:8 into the discussion was totally irrelevant to OSAS.

One more time:
1. eternal life is a gift, per Rom 6:23. The word is "charisma".
2. God's gift (charisma) is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.
3. When are you going to realize this?"


No, Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29 use the SAME WORD for "gift" and you call this my opinion?????


Because, quite frankly, you have no answer for the truth.


Done that. Why won't you interact with these verses that call eternal life a gift and that God's gifts (SAME WORD as in 6:23) are irrevocable, per 11:29?


You have closed your eyes to truth. So very sad.


God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. That is irrefutable. You've proven that your view is unbiblical.

You have flatly denied the truth of Scripture. But your denials don't change the truth at all.

You tried to refute me by bringing in Eph 2:8, which uses a different word for gift than is found in Rom 11:29. So what?

The point is that Paul used the SAME WORD in 6:23 for "gift" that he did in 11:29, and what do you do? Simply ignore the truth.

We have been over every post and verse you have posted.

Not one say "the gift of eternal life is irrevocable".

Without believing, there is no salvation.

Ex Christian will end up worse that non Christians.

If you believe for a while, then you are saved for a while.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Of course not. This is irrelevant to the issue of OSAS. So, what are the so-called limitations of OSAS? You've yet to list them.

It's entirely relevant regardless of your claims of it NOT being relevant.

It's also the basis of complaint against OSAS, because such b e l i e v e r s put themselves entirely PAST all adverse judgments of God against ALL evil and sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

We have been over every post and verse you have posted.

You've done no such thing.

Not one say "the gift of eternal life is irrevocable".

OK, let's go over this one more time.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift (charisma). OK?

Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. OK?

Are you truly unable to connect these extremely obviously dots?

Without believing, there is no salvation.

Yes.

Ex Christian will end up worse that non Christians.

For this life, that is very true. And scary.

If you believe for a while, then you are saved for a while.

This is the thing that you HAVE NOT PROVEN from Scripture. It's just your own opinion.

Your refusal to accept the truth that eternal life is irrevocable really amazes me. Sad.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's entirely relevant regardless of your claims of it NOT being relevant.

Then please, please, please, explain WHY it is.

It's also the basis of complaint against OSAS, because such b e l i e v e r s put themselves entirely PAST all adverse judgments of God against ALL evil and sin.

This is so blatantly untrue, there's nothing else to say about it. But you're free to believe whatever you want to believe. Regardless of the truth.

 

[smaller]

Then please, please, please, explain WHY it is

It's been explained MANY times. Why you run past the obvious is the only question in play. I stated this to dadof10:

"As to 'your' claim that the entrance of Satan into the mind and heart to STEAL and to TEMPT has no bearing on these subjects, what can I say to that other than you miss the obvious because you can't touch it with your hands, taste it in your mouth, see it with your eyes, hear it with your ears, smell it with your nose.

The matter is beyond the 5 senses and purposefully HIDDEN by God against all flesh men."

There is nothing hidden in the above statement of fact. Believers ARE subject to internal temptation of the tempter, placing another entity within their minds and hearts, for theological purposes of discussions.

So when believers say THEY are OSAS, that is very well true.

But even more obviously is that they ALSO bear an entity in their minds and hearts, just as PAUL showed us, that is slated for eternal damnation in the LoF.

So the random statement that a believer is OSAS simply does not apply to the construct of the believer to begin with as that is not the WHOLE story.

Now from here usually one of two things happen. Believers will LIE and say that the tempter never tempts them internally or they will say they are their own tempter.

But if there is an entity that is called the tempter and Satan, and if temptation by that entity still transpires internally AFTER salvation, well then my friend, you have a whole new theological ballgame that you've yet to step up to the plate and play with.

I've submitted factual scriptural evidence of two things that are critical to this discussion.

A. Paul DID have an entity that was NOT himself in his own flesh called the messenger of SATAN.

and

B. That 'temptation' was in Paul's flesh

It is not a hard dot to connect the messenger of SATAN with temptation, is it?

Nor is it difficult to connect that messenger of Satan to EVIL present, is it?

Or the sin that indwelt Paul flesh, which Paul termed NOT I or NO LONGER I, connected to the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

This is not a simple subject.

It is an OPENLY RESISTED subject because it's a continuing REALITY today.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

OK, let's go over this one more time.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift (charisma). OK?

Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable. OK?

Are you truly unable to connect these extremely obviously dots?

Ok Last time -

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK



JLB

 

[Gregg]

Ok Last time -

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK



JLB

Great example of Apologetics and Theology.
I . . . digress.

 

[JLB]

Great example of Apologetics and Theology.
I . . . digress.

Yeah, since it's not theology when someone just states their opinion and "tags" it with a scripture reference, rather than just simply write out the scripture and discuss whats actually in the scripture itself.

Example: 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


One person says this means that eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God.

The truth is this scripture is a reference about Israel that has been cut off because of unbelief, but will be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok Last time -

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag = ignore - OK

Your opinion with scripture "tag" = ignore - OKJLB

How sad. Paul used the exact same word for "gift" in Rom 6:23 when he described eternal life as he used in 11:29 when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

The meaning is clear, but you refuse to accept the truth.

I've given no opinion here; just the FACT that the gift (charisma) of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is the SAME gift (charisma) that is irrevocable in 11:29.

It is your own opinion that you cannot support with Scripture; that one is saved only as long as one believes. You've given no Scripture for that opinion of yours.

Because it does NOT exist in Scripture. Just the opposite: eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, since it's not theology when someone just states their opinion and "tags" it with a scripture reference, rather than just simply write out the scripture and discuss whats actually in the scripture itself.

Example: 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


One person says this means that eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God.

The truth is this scripture is a reference about Israel that has been cut off because of unbelief, but will be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

It is abundantly clear from your comment here that you have no clue what "irrevocable" means. Your comment includes a conditional clause. There are no conditions in "irrevocable".

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23JLB

So, where's the "charisma" in these verses? Oh, yeah, it isn't there.

Rom 6:23 the gift (charisma) of God is eternal life.

Rom 11:29 the gifts (charisma) and calling of God are irrevocable.

Your view denies Scripture.

 

[Gregg]

Yeah, since it's not theology when someone just states their opinion and "tags" it with a scripture reference, rather than just simply write out the scripture and discuss whats actually in the scripture itself.

Example: 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


One person says this means that eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God.

The truth is this scripture is a reference about Israel that has been cut off because of unbelief, but will be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:21-23


JLB

The reason why Paul could say "For the free gifts and the calling of God are without repentance" (Rom 11:29) most certainly involves the LORD's relationship with Abraham, and consequently the nation of Israel. The LORD is not sorrowful that He called Abraham and appointed the nation of Israel, nor did He change His mind regarding His plan for salvation; that is God sending His Son to the cross for our righteousness and salvation.

The gifts and the calling of God culminate in the Person of Jesus Christ, for which the Church [the called-out ones among both Jews and Gentiles] is the beneficiary; namely the very things that Paul calls 'free gifts' [χάρισμα] in the book of Romans: our justification in Christ (Rom 5:15-16) accompanied by eternal life (Rom 6:23). I would add a 3rd free gift that Paul speaks of in Romans: that being the Spirit of God indwelling believers, the One who imparts free gifts (Rom 1:11, 12:6; see also 1Cor 1:7, 7:7, 1Tim 4:14).

The LORD is not sorry, nor will He change His mind regarding our irrevocable justification, our being granted eternal life, and our being sealed by His Spirit.

These things the LORD has promised based on His grace, according to His great love, because of His unchangeable nature and unbreakable promises. Even while we hated God . . . He demonstrated His love for us. The LORD is not One to perfect love in a believer based upon the creature's ability, nature, or will.

And so Paul spoke to the Philippians, "being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Php 1:6 LITV). Who persuaded Paul of that very thing? The LORD through His dealings with Israel as a nation, through His building the Church, and with Paul himself as an individual man. His statement to the Philippians was not about their financial giving, but God having given eternal life to them; a work beginning with and being perfected by God.

 

[JLB]

The reason why Paul could say "For the free gifts and the calling of God are without repentance" (Rom 11:29) most certainly involves the LORD's relationship with Abraham, and consequently the nation of Israel. The LORD is not sorrowful that He called Abraham and appointed the nation of Israel, nor did He change His mind regarding His plan for salvation; that is God sending His Son to the cross for our righteousness and salvation.

The gifts and the calling of God culminate in the Person of Jesus Christ, for which the Church [the called-out ones among both Jews and Gentiles] is the beneficiary; namely the very things that Paul calls 'free gifts' [χάρισμα] in the book of Romans: our justification in Christ (Rom 5:15-16) accompanied by eternal life (Rom 6:23). I would add a 3rd free gift that Paul speaks of in Romans: that being the Spirit of God indwelling believers, the One who imparts free gifts (Rom 1:11, 12:6; see also 1Cor 1:7, 7:7, 1Tim 4:14).

The LORD is not sorry, nor will He change His mind regarding our irrevocable justification, our being granted eternal life, and our being sealed by His Spirit.

These things the LORD has promised based on His grace, according to His great love, because of His unchangeable nature and unbreakable promises. Even while we hated God . . . He demonstrated His love for us. The LORD is not One to perfect love in a believer based upon the creature's ability, nature, or will.

And so Paul spoke to the Philippians, "being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Php 1:6 LITV). Who persuaded Paul of that very thing? The LORD through His dealings with Israel as a nation, through His building the Church, and with Paul himself as an individual man. His statement to the Philippians was not about their financial giving, but God having given eternal life to them; a work beginning with and being perfected by God.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

 

[JLB]

How sad. Paul used the exact same word for "gift" in Rom 6:23 when he described eternal life as he used in 11:29 when he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable.

The meaning is clear, but you refuse to accept the truth.

I've given no opinion here; just the FACT that the gift (charisma) of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is the SAME gift (charisma) that is irrevocable in 11:29.

It is your own opinion that you cannot support with Scripture; that one is saved only as long as one believes. You've given no Scripture for that opinion of yours.

Because it does NOT exist in Scripture. Just the opposite: eternal life is irrevocable.

No scripture, No Response.


JLB

 

[JLB]

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

...escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:6


JLB