OSAS The Truth

[Malachi]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

We should take a close look at this Scripture, and see exactly what it is saying:
1. Those who have eternal salvation firstly OBEY the Gospel and are saved, thereby receiving the gift of eternal life by grace.
2. Those who are saved OBEY Christ in believer's baptism.
3. Those who are baptized OBEY Christ and keep all His commandments.

Obedience must follow salvation. At the same time, Christians can and do stumble and sin. God has made full provision for the sins of believers. Those who fail to repent are also prematurely taken from this earth. But their eternal life is always secure, because Christ within is Himself the Author of eternal salvation.

 

[JLB]

Malachi said -

Those who fail to repent are also prematurely taken from this earth. But their eternal life is always secure, because Christ within is Himself the Author of eternal salvation.

Ok, please post the scripture you have for this statement, that says...they fail to repent, are prematurely taken from this earth, but their salvation is secure.


Here is the context of Hebrews 5 & 6 -


8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing,12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.Hebrews 5:8-14

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8


Thanks JLB

 

[Malachi]

Ok, please post the scripture you have for this statement, that says...they fail to repent, are prematurely taken from this earth, but their salvation is secure.

First of all we are not talking about apostates and apostasy here, just Christians who sin. Hebrews 5 (not relevant) & 6 (not applicable).

1 Cor 5:
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh [premature physical death], that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[eternal life]
1 Corinthians 11:
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [sleep = premature physical death e.g. Ananias and Sapphira]
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. [not condemned with the world = remain saved]
James 5
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [save a soul from death = prevent premature death]
1 John 5
16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[death = physical death]
John devotes this entire epistle to confirming that every believer has eternal life which remains secure because he is "born of God" (1 Jn 5:1).

 

[chessman]

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

One person says this means that eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God.

Make that two. Include Chessman.

Plus, if you actually study the entire letter Paul wrote to the Roman believers (and believe what he wrote) you find out that at least three people say that the gift of eternal life is an irreocable gift from God:

Ro 6:23For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ro 11:29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Including Paul then, that makes three persons, plus a little inspiration from you know Who, that say the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

The truth is this scripture is a reference about Israel that has been cut off because of unbelief, but will be grafted back in if they do not continue in unbelief.

And we have one person that says Paul really didn't mean what he said in 6:23 and 11:29, but rather really meant that the cutting off (revocation, so-to-speak) of Israel was the irrevocable gift of Paul's 11:29 statement. Even though Paul never actually called the cutting off of Israel a gift (or the potential re-grafting) yet he did call Eternal Life a gift. And God cutting them off seems like the complete opposite of an irrevocable gift and more like God's choice of discipline than a gift.

But whatever, anti-OSAS must be true, huh?

 

[FreeGrace]

No scripture, No Response.


JLB

So, Rom 6:23 isn't in your Bible??? Or Rom 5:15,17? Do you just cut out what you don't like???

btw, speaking of "no Scripture", your posts take the cake. There is absolutely ZERO verses that tell us that salvation can be lost. ZERO ain't much, btw.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

No Scripture to back you up.

 

[JLB]

So, Rom 6:23 isn't in your Bible??? Or Rom 5:15,17? Do you just cut out what you don't like???

btw, speaking of "no Scripture", your posts take the cake. There is absolutely ZERO verses that tell us that salvation can be lost. ZERO ain't much, btw.

Make that two. Include Chessman.

Plus, if you actually study the entire letter Paul wrote to the Roman believers (and believe what he wrote) you find out that at least three people say that the gift of eternal life is an irreocable gift from God:

Ro 6:23For the compensation due sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ro 11:29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Including Paul then, that makes three persons, plus a little inspiration from you know Who, that say the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.



And we have one person that says Paul really didn't mean what he said in 6:23 and 11:29, but rather really meant that the cutting off (revocation, so-to-speak) of Israel was the irrevocable gift of Paul's 11:29 statement. Even though Paul never actually called the cutting off of Israel a gift (or the potential re-grafting) yet he did call Eternal Life a gift. And God cutting them off seems like the complete opposite of an irrevocable gift and more like God's choice of discipline than a gift.

But whatever, anti-OSAS must be true, huh?

If a person believes is Jesus Christ for salvation, and is Baptized and attends Church for 10 years, then goes on a missionary trip to the middle east.

Some of these missionary's are captured by the Taliban and are forced to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, and convert to Islam, whereby they are required to confess Allah as Lord, and the Only true God or be beheaded.

Can a born again Christian renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, and publicly confess Allah as Lord, and the only true God and still be saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

First of all we are not talking about apostates and apostasy here, just Christians who sin. Hebrews 5 (not relevant) & 6 (not applicable).

1 Cor 5:
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh [premature physical death], that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[eternal life]

This scripture teaches us -

If these Christians don't obey Paul's command to turn this person over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his soul may be saved in the Day of Jesus Christ, then this Christian who is involved in this sexual immorality, will not be saved in the Day of Jesus Christ.


Context:

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1 Corinthians 5:9-12

6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers! 7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:6-10

Paul clearly writing to Christians warns them, that those who are practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God

Couldn't be any more plain!

Do you know what not inheriting the kingdom of God means?

1 John 5
16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
[death = physical death]
John devotes this entire epistle to confirming that every believer has eternal life which remains secure because he is "born of God" (1 Jn 5:1).

1 John 5 -

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Notice it is he who believes... that overcomes.

Not those who believe for a while then turn away from Christ, who is the living God.


10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


Where in these scriptures does it say ex-believers are granted eternal life?

Only believers.


16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.


Everyone will die physical death. This verse speaks of the sin that leads to eternal death that will not be forgiven.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a sin that can not be forgiven. -

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Matthew 12:31

1 Corinthians 11:
28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [sleep = premature physical death e.g. Ananias and Sapphira]
31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. [not condemned with the world = remain saved]

Sleep = physical death.

This does not teach about losing ones salvation.

James 5
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [save a soul from death = prevent premature death]

Save a "soul" from death is eternal death.

People who have strayed from the truth are called heretics, and are likened as sinners.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


If anyone among you, wanders from the truth, he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

Death of a soul who has turned back to being a sinner, is eternal damnation.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

If a person believes is Jesus Christ for salvation, and is Baptized and attends Church for 10 years, then goes on a missionary trip to the middle east.

Some of these missionary's are captured by the Taliban and are forced to renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, and convert to Islam, whereby they are required to confess Allah as Lord, and the Only true God or be beheaded.

Can a born again Christian renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, and publicly confess Allah as Lord, and the only true God and still be saved?JLB

If you believe the Bible, yes, they are still saved. But you seem not to believe the Bible. Which describes eternal life as a gift (charisma) and says that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

Before Rom 11:29, Paul wrote that neither "things present, nor things future" can separate us (believers) from the Love of Christ (Rom 8:38).

Why do you not believe what Paul wrote?

 

[chessman]

Can a born again Christian renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, and publicly confess Allah as Lord, and the only true God and still be saved?


JLB

You answered your own question.
Think about it.

Can a born again Christ and Holy Spirit indwelt person renounce Christ? Only the old man can.

Then think about how many times people (like Peter) say things they don't really mean in their Christ indwelt hearts. Three, at least.

Sometimes the old fleshly mouth just blabs out falsehoods too. (Like OSAS is rooted in universalism).

 

[Gregg]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Are you born from above?

If so, after being born from above, have you at any time either lost or given up your salvation?

 

[JLB]

Are you born from above?

If so, after being born from above, have you at any time either lost or given up your salvation?

If you have a scripture that you would like to discuss, then please write out the scripture, and let's discuss it, and what it actually says.


There are many wonderful promises from God to us concerning eternal life, for He is merciful and loving and desires that all should come to repentance, and be saved.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Death of a soul who has turned back to being a sinner, is eternal damnation.

JLB

A specious presentation.

Not one christian ever ceased or ceases being a factual sinner in their life on earth.

 

[JLB]

A specious presentation.

Not one christian ever ceased or ceases being a factual sinner in their life on earth.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Brethren - Christians

among you - Christians

from the truth - heretic

a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.


JLB

 

[WIP]

Sounds like only one of two possibilities are left.
1. God chooses who will believe, if they will believe, when they will belief and by what means their believe will be manifest. Therefore the responsibility, blame, liability, fault, and guilt for unbelief and evil in this world rests squarely on God's shoulders alone removing the need for a savior and therefore reducing Christ's sacrifice to nothing.

OR

2. Everyone will be saved regardless of what they say, do, think, or believe. Again, removing the need for a savior and therefore reducing Christ's sacrifice to nothing.

Sorry, I can't buy either possibility.

Before one can believe, it seems we must take that first step of faith as I said earlier. Will God give us the ability to believe if we don't first trust Him?

I realize this is a little off topic but after reviewing, I have to recant and restate my earlier statement where I said, “We must take the first step.” That is not accurately what I meant to say. I agree that we cannot be saved without God as it is by the power of the Holy Spirit but I also believe that, outside of maybe a few rare cases, God will not save us against our will. In fact, I would be interested in finding scripture where it shows someone was saved without first asking for it.

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” (Revelation 3:20 NKJV)

”Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” (Matthew 7:7 NKJV)

Now when they had left the multitude, they took Him along in the boat as He was. And other little boats were also with Him. And a great windstorm arose, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was already filling. But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?” Then He arose and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Peace, be still!” And the wind ceased and there was a great calm. (Mark 4:36-39 NKJV)

Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go before Him to the other side, while He sent the multitudes away. … But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary. Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. …. And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!” And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. (Matthew 14:22, 24-25, 28-32 NKJV)

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. (John 6:44-47 NKJV)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

At one time or another we are all drowning in a sea of pride, debauchery, immorality, and sin. God has already taken the first step and tossed out the lifeline to us. We we are proud and believe we can do it on our own so we can boast and sing, “I did it my way!” When we finally humble ourselves, seek His lifeline, and call out to Him for help God is ready and waiting to welcome us with open arms like the prodigal children we are for He desires that we all come to Him.

Sorry for the off-topic stuff.

 

[smaller]

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Basic primer for any christian to adhere to.

Believers who enter the ground of condemnation show that the disobedience they carry in their own hearts has overtaken them. They become hypocrites, judging their own sins as non-existing or 'forgiven' by any number of given rituals or practices while they openly leap into condemnation of other sinners.

There is a part of us that is baited into such actions by The Word, just to show us how vile and double dealing our hearts really are.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

No sinner of the christian sort has been called up to the eternal damnation throne over ANY other sinner.

We ALL have sin. That much is a certainty.

We are not engaged with a powerless Advocate:

Romans 8:
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

That intercession of God in Christ is always sorely needed because we are sinners, all.

 

[smaller]

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Brethren - Christians

among you - Christians

from the truth - heretic

a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

JLB

Turning a sinner into what? Lying about being a sinner?

I always have trouble understanding why being truthful about being a factual sinner presents so much difficulty to the 'you will lose your salvation if you sin' camp.

When we are turned from sin we are, in that process, turned from the power of Satan.

We don't save ourselves from God.

 

[smaller]

I realize this is a little off topic but after reviewing, I have to recant and restate my earlier statement where I said, “We must take the first step.” That is not accurately what I meant to say. I agree that we cannot be saved without God as it is by the power of the Holy Spirit but I also believe that, outside of maybe a few rare cases, God will not save us against our will. In fact, I would be interested in finding scripture where it shows someone was saved without first asking for it.

Saul being struck down on the road to Damascus always immediately comes to mind.

The real question to ask is, IF God in Christ can do that, THEN why doesn't that happen to more or to all? Obviously God directly imposed His Will on Saul without getting Sauls permission.

And I'd venture any of us having a similar 'experience' would react similarly. Who could resist that kind of showing? Was Saul converted by a decision? No. He was converted by direct intervention and Divine Calling. It had nothing to do with Saul and everything to do with Gods Divine Extension of overwhelming Grace played out in very dramatic fashions.

Yet the others standing with him were unaffected to the same cause, as far as we know. How weird is that?

Sorry for the off-topic stuff.

It's a very on topic observation because Saul is a great example of the surety of Gods call and election through direct intervention. Wipes the freewill guesswork off the map imho.

We really don't know why some are led into belief/faith and some not.

I do know however that the BAR has to be lowered to meet everyone. Evangelists like Billy Graham took a lot of heat from some camps over easy believism and a simple sinners prayer, but the methods proved very effective.

As believers we have only one obligation to work out in our present life, and that is to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Condemning any sinner to burn alive forever will always remain at odds with the Divine Dictates that we have had laid before us.

There is certainly cause to direct judgment and condemnation. But once a believer realizes that it is the god of this world who captures the minds of the unbeliever, they will never see an unsaved person ALONE in their minds again, and they should also see their real enemy in that process.

God in this way has BOUND the world, waiting for US to extend HIS LOVE to all mankind.

And any who doubt this will find this fact out soon enough, after they leave here and find regrets that they did not extend LOVE they DIVINELY RECEIVED with all of it's glorious Divine firey fervor and passion.

Less rewards will be found.

 

[JLB]

Turning a sinner into what? Lying about being a sinner?

I always have trouble understanding why being truthful about being a factual sinner presents so much difficulty to the 'you will lose your salvation if you sin' camp.

When we are turned from sin we are, in that process, turned from the power of Satan.

We don't save ourselves from God.

I have no idea what you are talking about.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.



a person who turns from the truth, is likened to a sinner... he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.


...from the truth means they were walking in the truth and turned away. Someone who turns them back to the truth saves this sinner from eternal death.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

I think this scripture will be VERY CLEAR.

John 15:5-8 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Jesus is the "Word" and he has given his "Word". He gives himself to believers............what a believer does with him/his word is up to the believer.

A believer ostensibly believes his word. Otherwise he is not a believer.

Read it however you can or can't.

Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Paul was saved.

The messenger of Satan, NOT.

Therefore the extension of OSAS did NOT apply to the entirety of Paul, nor does it to any believer.

There, the line is drawn upon every believer.

As to 'your' claim that the entrance of Satan into the mind and heart to STEAL and to TEMPT has no bearing on these subjects, what can I say to that other than you miss the obvious because you can't touch it with your hands, taste it in your mouth, see it with your eyes, hear it with your ears, smell it with your nose.

The matter is beyond the 5 senses and purposefully HIDDEN by God against all flesh men.

smaller

Why make stuff up? 2 Cor. 12:7 isn't some new theology. Paul said he received a thorn in his flesh, a messenger of Satan in his flesh, that made him weak (no doubt from the countless beatings he received in prison and suffering without food and exposure) This was a constant reminder, a messenger of Satan in his flesh, lest he should boast of his strength. So he said, "If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness." and "I will not boast except of my weaknesses."

This is consistent with what Jesus taught that we would suffer as he suffered.