Perdition's Population Clock

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: Why was Jesus' crucifixion a must? Surely God is powerful enough that He
could pardon everyone without putting His son through all that grief.

REPLY: That would be a gross miscarriage of justice. In other words; people have to
pay for the things they've done. Well if they pay their own way, they will not
survive. But if they allow God to pay their way by having His son stand in for them,
then they will live. In point of fact, he already stood in for them

● 2 Cor 5:19-21 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting
their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of
reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were
entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He
made him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the
righteousness of God in him.

So now all that folks have to do is RSVP God and let Him know they are interested
in coming to terms with Him.

FAQ: How?

REPLY: Find some privacy. Cover your face with your hands for a sense of
connection, and in your own words-- aloud or under your breath --tell God you've
been a sinner and probably always will be a sinner. Then tell Him you'd like to take
advantage of His son's death to protect yourself from retribution.
_

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus expressed his disgust with folks in the Laodicean church whom he described
as lukewarm, i.e. neither hot nor cold (Rev 3:14-16) I take it that he would prefer
they make a decision about him one way or the other rather than be indifferent.

Yes. This was Harold Pittman's teaching, and I have subscribed to it for many years.

Ever had a chance to read Harold Pittman?

 

[Beetow]

Ever had a chance to read Harold Pittman?

Never heard of him in all my 80+ years till just now.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
COMMON OBJECTION: I do not see the justice in infinite punishment for finite
mistakes.

REPLY: Well; one of the problems associated with that objection is the human
mind's limitations. Its sense of justice is the product of a 3-pound lump of flabby
organic tissue; and not even all three of those pounds are utilized for cognitive
processes; plus: 60% of its mass is fat. In that respect, the human mind has no
more sense of justice in comparison to God's sense of justice than the wisdom of
Solomon compared to the natural instincts of a bunny rabbit.

● 1Cor 3:20 . .The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are empty.

Well; that's certainly not a very flattering evaluation. It's as much as saying that, in
God's opinion, the smartest among humanity basically consists of air heads; and if
that's His evaluation of the best and brightest, then where might God be ranking
the average John Que and Jane Doe?

The origin of a law is what gives it a measure of dignity. Take for instance a group
of boys who build a tree house for a boys' club. They elect officers from among
themselves, and draw up a charter of rules that members of the club have to
observe in order to remain in good standing as honorable club members. Would
their charter stand up in an adult court of law? No, of course not. Their charter
would merit very little respect in the adult world because the origin of their rules
was just a posse of kids.

The principle of origin can be extended out into the world of municipal law, state
law, and federal law. At each level, the law's dignity increases, and breaking it at
each succeeding level becomes that much more serious.

Heaven's law is the ultimate charter; and it's requirements demand far more
respect than a tree house, or a municipality, or a state, or a federal government
because the origin of Heaven's law is the superior of all beings who merits far more
respect than human brain cells. In short: perdition tells us, emphatically, that
mankind is required to worship God not merely because He's a religious figure, but
because He is immeasurably the better and mankind is immeasurably the lesser,
viz: perdition reminds us of our place.

In reality then, a confinement like Hell preserves God's dignity. You see, it's one
thing to be hauled before a judge for spitting on your next-door neighbor's car; but
it's quite another to be hauled before a judge for spitting on the judge's car.

Seen from that angle; Hell isn't retribution enough for people made in the image
and likeness of God because there just isn't any other way for them to personally
make amends for their contempt for His status since the degree of God's
distinctions are off the scale. The only substitute God will accept in lieu of eternal
retribution is His son's life blood (1Pet 1:18-19) otherwise God has no alternative
but the unthinkable.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
COMMON ATTITUDE: God understands me. Although He probably won't let others
off; I'm sure He will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people;
I'm different.

REPLY: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make
exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it would go
against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His conscience; and cause
Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is
treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of divine absolutes; there is neither
a curve nor an exception: nobody gets any favors, and nobody is special.

● Deut 10:17 . . Yahweh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

● Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God is
impartial.

● Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just judge
of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give
eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and
honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on
those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil
deeds.

. .There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew
first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God
for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not
show favoritism.

NOTE: The reason it says "for the Jew first" is because of their privileged position.

● Amos 3:1-2 . . Hearken to this word which the Lord spoke about you, O children
of Israel, about the entire family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:
Only you did I love above all the families of the earth; therefore, I will visit upon
you all your iniquities.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
Humanity is divided in two categories: the Living, and the Dead (Acts 10:42,
2Tim 4:1, 1Pet 4:5) and their respective judgments take place at two times and
locations.

Below is a description of the Dead's judgment; and I should point out that what we
are about to read is not a prediction. No, John actually saw this event with his own
eyes; like viewing a live video feed from the future.

● Rev 20:11-15 . . And I saw a great white throne, and I saw the one who was
sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from His presence, but they found no place to
hide. I saw the Dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the
books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the Dead were judged
according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done.

The Dead are mentioned twice in that scene; whereas the Living aren't mentioned
at all. The reason is that the Living won't stand trial among the Dead at the great
white throne is because their judgment took place with Christ.

● Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ
Jesus were baptized into His death?

● Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

● Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

● Col 3:1-4 . . For you died when Christ died

Consequently the Living will never again be in danger of the great white throne.

● John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and trust in God who
sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they
have already passed from death into life.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: Since people are to exist in Hell forever, does that mean they have eternal
life?

REPLY: People in Hell exist there with the kind of life they were born with. If they
had eternal life; they wouldn't be in Hell.

● John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who
sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they
have already transferred from death into life.

FAQ: Well then if eternal life has little or nothing to do with the duration of one's
existence; then what is it?

REPLY: If you can understand what human nature is, then you're on your way to
understanding eternal life because it has to do with divine nature. (2Pet 1:2-4)

In a nutshell: people with eternal life have the potential to think, feel, and conduct
themselves like God, whereas people with human life will never be like anyone but
themselves; they're stuck.

POP CLOCK UPDATE: 30 days have transpired since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post No.1 are within reason, then something like 2,302,560 new arrivals
have checked into the fiery sector of Hades since Dec 15, 2024.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
As if Hell's environment isn't bad enough, people are in it as their selves; viz: they
are never going to be free from their own personalities-- their phobias, their hang
ups, their inner conflicts, their memories, their anger, their hostility, their rivalries,
their prejudice, their bias, their angst, their misogyny, their misandry, their
resentments, their regrets, their gender confusion, their disappointments, their
bitterness, their animosity, their passions, and their appetites.

Hell is even more of a hell than you might think because, having missed out on the
regeneration about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, and the supernatural
circumcision spoken of by Col 2:11; people take who they are right along with them
down there. Thus; suicide is not a good way to relieve things like depression,
despondence, failure, and/or despair. People take that low state of mind right along
with them to the other side; and their sorrow will be even more intensified in fire
when they realize that as bad as things were up here on the surface, their situation
up here wasn't nearly as bad as their situation down below.

Suicide can help you escape things like cancer, credit card debt, an abusive spouse,
physical handicaps, pimples, a ruined reputation, a blighted life, a bully, despots
and tyrants, a life of neither promise nor future, prison, grinding poverty, and the
Mafioso; but suicide won't help you to escape you.
_

 

[miamited]

Hi Beetow

Certain Christian religions (e.g. Jehovah's Witness and Christadelphians; et al)
insist that when a human being dies, it goes completely out of conscious existence.

I can't speak for 'Christadelphians as I have no idea what or who they are, but I assure you that JW's don't believe that humans at death 'goes completely out of conscious existence'.

 

[Beetow]

I assure you that JW's don't believe that humans at death 'goes completely out of conscious existence'.

Ecc 9:5 . . For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they
are conscious of nothing at all (New World Translation ©1984)

Ecc 9:10 . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no
work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are
going. (New World Translation ©1984)

Ezek 18:4 . . The soul that is sinning-- it itself will die. (New World Translation ©1984)

Ps 146:3-4 . . Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to
whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that
day his thoughts do perish. (New World Translation ©1984)

* Resurrection for Jehovah's Witnesses is quite a bit different than the conventional
process.

In the JW religion, Adam's descendants cease to be a soul when their body dies;
thus making it necessary for God to gather up their dust and reconstruct them body
and soul all over again just as He did Adam in the very beginning.

Gen 2:7 . . . And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the
ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a
living soul. (New World Translation ©1984)

Gen 3:19 . . In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the
ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.
(New World Translation ©1984)
_

 

[miamited]

Ecc 9:5 . . For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they
are conscious of nothing at all (New World Translation ©1984)

I suppose it depends on how one reads that. The dead are conscious of nothing. I don't equate that as going out of conscious 'existence'.

for there is no
work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are
going.

Which is in line with other translations of the Scriptures:

for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. KJV

Ezek 18:4 . . The soul that is sinning-- it itself will die.

Again, that seems to be in line with other translations:

the soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV

His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that
day his thoughts do perish.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. KJV

Gen 2:7 . . . And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the
ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a
living soul. (New World Translation ©1984)

Gen 3:19 . . In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the
ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.
(New World Translation ©1984)
_

That is also pretty much what the KJ translation says also. So, I guess ole King Jim got it wrong, also.

 

[Beetow]

That is also pretty much what the KJ translation says also. So, I guess ole King Jim got it wrong,
also.

The NWT passages that I quoted in post No.50 are not intended as comparisons
with conventional Bibles, rather, they are a list of proof texts that the Watchtower
Society uses to support their belief that people do not retain consciousness when
their bodies expire.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
Although the Watchtower Society uses many of conventional Christianity's terms
and phrases, oftentimes those terms and phrases mean something entirely different
in the JW mind than what we might expect because the Society has re-defined
them. For example soul sleep.

Conventional belief systems portray sleeping souls as alive and preserved in a sort
of suspended animation, whereas the Watchtower Society's belief system portrays
sleeping souls as quite deceased.

The Society's system defines the soul's death as sleep only because its deceased
status isn't set in concrete, i.e. the soul's death isn't necessarily permanent; for
example the restoration of Jesus' pal Lazarus as its depicted in the 11th chapter of
John's gospel.

Ref: Reasoning From The Scriptures, ©1989, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society
_

 

[Beetow]

.
● Heb 10:26-28 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the
knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

People that know the Bible are aware that lies are sins. Yet they continue to be less
than 100% honest. So then; every time they lie, they commit a deliberate sin
because they know it's wrong.

People have been taught that sexual fantasies are sins. Yet they continue to
have them. So then every time they indulge in a sexual fantasy, they commit a
deliberate sin because they know it's wrong.

People that know the Bible are aware that thoughtless remarks are sin, yet they
continue to make thoughtless remarks. So then every time they make a
thoughtless remark, they commit a deliberate sin because they know it's wrong.

People that know the Bible are aware God requires civil obedience. So then when
they speed, fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs, run red lights, pass
illegally, and/or J-walk; they are committing deliberate sins because they know
it's wrong.

Therefore, willful sinners who fail to take advantage of Jesus' crucifixion as the final
option to protect themselves from retribution are on a road to Hell because there
just isn't any other road for them to be on.
_

 

[miamited]

The NWT passages that I quoted in post No.50 are not intended as comparisons
with conventional Bibles, rather, they are a list of proof texts that the Watchtower
Society uses to support their belief that people do not retain consciousness when
their bodies expire.
_

Hi Beetow

Oh, well then instead of just posting verses from the NWT, wouldn't it have been appropriate to point out the error of what their understanding was of those passages? I mean, you just posted a bunch of passages from the NWT after making a claim that JW's believed that there was no 'conscious existence' after death. But most of those passages, in fact all of them that I looked up were pretty much word for word how the KJ translation writes them. So I have to say, I think your point was missed.

So, what do you have in the dogmatic belief system of the JW's that makes those passages apparently misunderstood? You make a statement of fact about a group of people. You throw out several verses of Scripture that really don't make any claim that JW's have some different writings than the rest of us, apparently as proof of your claim, and expect your claim to stand unchallenged. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to show me where the JW's actually think what you claim they think regarding those passages in the many translations of the Scriptures.

Now, I'm not a practicing believer with the JW fellowships. But I am familiar with some of what they believe. I do know that they do seem to hold Jesus, as far as his hierarchy of existence, to be on plane with angels. I believe the writer of Hebrews makes clear to us that Jesus is higher than the angels. However, this idea that they believe that when we die that there is somehow some difference in how they understand one's existence after that as being any different than how many of other fellowships understand our existence after death, I haven't found in their teachings. I've read the Watchtower publication and they actually have pictures of happy families enjoying an after life of peace and joy living with God. So, I can understand that there are some practices that aren't what I find in keeping with the Scriptures, but quite frankly, not any different than a lot of what the RCC teaches about the things of God.

I'm much more concerned with the RCC teaching that some holy man of their group can bless divorces. Or that we're all going to have a chance to make up for all of our wicked deeds in some place called purgatory. That they have people among them who molest children, likely because they claim that a man of God can't be married which is nowhere shown in the Scriptures, and all they do is move them to some other area of their group.

So I'm fine with discussing the error of some groups and what they believe God's word tells us, but it must be accurate and true. Remember, God doesn't want His children bearing false witness of another.

 

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: Why do so many conventional Christians insist it is necessary to believe Jesus'
crucified dead body was restored to life?

REPLY: None of the Old Testament sacrifices were restored to life. Their bodies all
remained deceased: some of them were even used for food, and the remains of
others were incinerated outside the camp. So it's logical to expect that Jesus' body
would remain deceased. But there is another matter of far greater consequence to
consider.

● Rom 4:25 . . He was delivered over to death for our sins, and was raised to life
for our justification.

The first half of that verse speaks of Isa 53:6 which reads like this:

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and
The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

But although Jesus' crucifixion satisfies justice for people's iniquity, the people
remain guilty; similar to when speeders pay a fine for going too fast. Their payment
satisfies justice for speeding, but the broken law stays on the books. In other
words: a paid fine clears no one of the crime.

The second half of Rom 4:25 speaks of justification-- translated from the Greek
word dikaíoosin which basically pertains to acquittal: defined as an adjudication of
innocence due to a lack of sufficient evidence to convict.

In other words: Jesus' crucified dead body had to be restored to life to make it
possible for sinners to be granted exoneration. Were Jesus' body to remained
deceased, nobody would get past the books spoken of by Rev 20:11-15 where the
losers will be subjected to a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a
kettle of molten iron.

* Were I the Devil, I would make it my mission in life to invalidate Christ's physical
resurrection because by means of its acceptance sinners have the opportunity to be
cleared of all wrong-doing from first to last. Failure to believe his crucified dead
body was restored to life will result in people's loss of the one God-given
opportunity to wipe the books; and thus they'll remain on a direct path to the
wrong side of things even though their iniquity was forgiven by means of Christ's
crucifixion.

● 1Cor 15:17 . . If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in
your sins.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
I once heard of a minister tell the story of a fictional busload of Hell's inmates who
were given a 30 day furlough for some R&R in Heaven. They all came back the first
night because God's world was such a bore.

There were no wild parties, no clothing-optional beaches, no bars, no night clubs,
no porn, no escort services, no pigging-out at buffets, no fights, no profanity, no
ribaldry, no free sex, no vulgar late-night comedy, no exotic dancers, no X-rated
movies, no junk food, no tobacco, no marijuana, no meth, no ecstasy, no
oxycontin, no fentanyl, no hunting for sport, no fishing for sport, no casino
gambling, no political activism, and no civil disobedience.

And the hellsters didn't particularly care for the isolation. None of the good folk in
Heaven wanted to associate with them: they were ostracized, they were
segregated, and they were quarantined.

Heaven is a pleasant utopia. It's etiquette, its dress code, and its rules of conduct
and civility; were way too constraining for the hellsters. Especially suffocating is the
mandatory self control everyone has to exercise in their choice of words to avoid
hurting people's feelings.

Take for example Wall Street barracudas. Do you really think they'd be happy in
Heaven? Or sweat shop operators? Or influence peddlers? Or lobbyists? Or J
walking pedestrians? Or LGBTQ? Or greedy capitalists? Or unscrupulous social
networking moguls? Or cheap politicians? Or Communists? Or bookies? Or
hoarders? Or black marketeers? Or militant activists? Or Critical Race theorists? Or
1619 Project proponents? No. No. No.

You see many of the interests that concern Hell's people are unacceptable in
Heaven; and in point of fact, none of Heaven's people even want to hear about that
stuff. For them that scene is over and they don't want it back.

You know what else is lacking in Heaven? Religious tolerance. There is only one
belief system up there. What's that tell you? Well; it tells me that the establishment
clause of the US Constitution's first amendment doesn't fly in Heaven. The
theocratic monarchy in Heaven insists upon dictating everyone's religious
preference.

All in all: Heaven's utopian society, coupled with its 24/7 Big Brother oversight,
universal surveillance, and strict morality, was just simply too much to ask in
exchange for some time off.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: What sane father would condemn His own children, the work of His creation,
to eternal punishment simply because they don't agree with him?

REPLY: While true that the God of Genesis created mankind, that does not eo ipso
make every man His kin. For example: Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak are the
fathers of the Apple II computer but that machine wasn't their kin, rather, it was
their handiwork.

The thing is: before folks can obtain a place in God's family circle they must first
undergo a regenerative process.

● John 1:12-13 . .To all who accepted him, to those who believed in his name, he
gave the right to become children of God-- children not born of natural descent, nor
of human decision, nor of a husband's passion, but born of God.

There are no exceptions to that rule; it is a requirement.

● John 3:6 . . Don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again.

POP CLOCK UPDATE: 35 days have transpired since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post No.1 are within reason, then something like 2,686,320 new arrivals
have checked into the fiery sector of Hades since Dec 15, 2024.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: Ever consider the fact that the Bible nowhere mentions that people go to
heaven or hell at the moment of death?

REPLY: I am unaware of that "fact" which in reality, is not a fact at all, but rather,
simply a deficiency in someone's own personal knowledge of the Bible.

Paul was confident that at his departure, he would be with Christ.

● Phlp 1:23 . . I desire to depart and be with Christ

To "be with Christ" is to be in heaven because according to Acts 2:32-36, Acts
7:55, Col 3:1, and 1Pet 3:22, etc; that is where Christ currently resides at his
Father's right hand.

For believers such as myself, to be absent from the body; is to be present with
Christ.

● 2Cor 5:6-8 . .Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are
at home in the body we are away from Christ. We are confident, I say, and would
prefer to be away from the body and at home with Christ.

When the rich man and the beggar Lazarus died in Luke 16:19-31, the angels
carried Lazarus to Abraham's section of the netherworld.

● Luke 16:22 . .The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
Abraham's side.

It's obvious from the text that Abraham wasn't in the fiery section of the
netherworld at the time. It could be argued he wasn't in heaven at the time either;
but that would certainly not be true today. If Paul expected to be with Christ at his
passing; then I have no doubt Abraham and Lazarus are now with Christ too.

Christ gave a fellow prisoner his word that they would both enter a paradise the
very day of their crucifixions.

● Luke 23:43 . . Jesus answered him; I tell you the truth, today you will be with me
in paradise.

If Christ and his fellow prisoner went to a paradise the very day of their deaths,
then can there be any doubt that the rich man went to the fiery section of the
netherworld the very day of his own death, and Lazarus went to Abraham's section
on the very day of his death?

Upon comparing texts, it becomes clear that nobody went to heaven prior to Jesus'
crucifixion and resurrection. Old Testament saints went to comfortable
accommodations in the netherworld where Abraham was at the time of the events
narrated in Luke 16:19-31. And the damned went to you know where; and they are
still there to this very day yearning for a damp swab to soothe their parched
tongues.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
I once heard a former US President reply to criticism with almost those exact same
words; viz: he didn't deny the truth of the criticism, but instead employed the age
old tactic of accusing his critic of the very same things; which, I guess in his mind;
somehow mitigated his own culpability; but the honorable response would have
been for him to man-up and admit his conduct was unbecoming rather than stoop
to recriminations.

It's very common for human nature to respond to criticism the same way that man
did. It's all the same as saying: Who are you to talk? Well; regardless of who
someone is to talk, if the criticism is true; then it stands; viz: recriminations are
futile. All they do is pull someone down with you so you don't go down alone.

I suspect there's going to be a quite a bit of resentment and indignation at the
great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when the dead see people in
white who they know to be guilty of the very same things for which they will be
sentenced to the reservoir of flaming sulfur.

So; how might I describe human nature? I think I could accurately describe it as
both judgmental and defensive.

● Rom 2:15 . .Their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.
_