Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[LovethroughDove]

No LovethroughDove,
Please read the scripture again:


1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ESV /
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Paul is speaking abut HIMSELF.

He is speaking to the church in regards to not being a hypocrite because he was preaching the gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

He is speaking to the church in regards to not being a hypocrite because he was preaching the gospel.

I'm sorry I cannot make you see it.
But it is very plain.

Paul is saying that he controls his body, so that after preaching to others, HE HIMSELF should be disqualified.
It's very clear LTD.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That's is NOT what I meant and I'm sure you know it.

I meant that the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves a person unless that person WANTS the Holy Spirit to leave.
How do they want it?
They don't believe anymore. They, for whatever reason, have lost their faith.

You believe - you're saved.
You don't believe - you're not saved.

You must believe to be saved. If you no believe longer at some point in your life, HOW COULD YOU STILL BE SAVED???
John 3:16

Wondering

Now now, we mustn't lose control of our senses.
Let me ask you again, a little differently.
Have you ever heard a sermon, where the preacher presented the possibility of losing their salvation if they stopped believing?
I know if I ever heard such a sermon, I would never forget it.
Or maybe there is some famous preacher in history who has preached on this?
Who would that be?
Maybe we can pull up that sermon somewhere.

 

[atpollard]

Hebrews 6:4-6

I was wondering if it would be OK if I poked this a bit as a Calvinist. No rabid spitting, just some 'what do you think' questions.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why "If they shall fall away"?
That wording always bothered me. He didn't say 'Those that do fall away' which would have made it perfectly clear that some not only can, but have. He said 'If they shall' which in English is a sort of 'what if' type of hypothetical. Maybe you can fall away, and maybe you can't ... the author of Hebrews is not saying, but 'IF' you can, then ...

The 'then' always bothered me, too.
"It is impossible ... to renew them unto repentance".
Really? I mean the Bible says it, so it must be true, but I thought that "with God, all things are possible".
Furthermore, I read that the only sin that would not be forgiven was "blaspheming the Holy Spirit".
That isn't blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is it? Then which verses are being misunderstood?

... unless the "IF" is only hypothetical without actually being possible. Like 'If Christ was not raised from the dead'. There is no actual possibility that Christ was not raised from the dead, it was a hypothetical 'what if' that was not actually possible.

I look forward to YOUR insight.

Arthur

 

[LovethroughDove]

The 'then' always bothered me, too.
"It is impossible ... to renew them unto repentance".
Really? I mean the Bible says it, so it must be true, but I thought that "with God, all things are possible".
Furthermore, I read that the only sin that would not be forgiven was "blaspheming the Holy Spirit".
That isn't blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is it? Then which verses are being misunderstood?

I have tried to bring this aspect into the mix before.

 

[calvin]

I was wondering if it would be OK if I poked this a bit as a Calvinist. No rabid spitting, just some 'what do you think' questions.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why "If they shall fall away"?
That wording always bothered me. He didn't say 'Those that do fall away' which would have made it perfectly clear that some not only can, but have. He said 'If they shall' which in English is a sort of 'what if' type of hypothetical. Maybe you can fall away, and maybe you can't ... the author of Hebrews is not saying, but 'IF' you can, then ...

The 'then' always bothered me, too.
"It is impossible ... to renew them unto repentance".
Really? I mean the Bible says it, so it must be true, but I thought that "with God, all things are possible".
Furthermore, I read that the only sin that would not be forgiven was "blaspheming the Holy Spirit".
That isn't blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is it? Then which verses are being misunderstood?

... unless the "IF" is only hypothetical without actually being possible. Like 'If Christ was not raised from the dead'. There is no actual possibility that Christ was not raised from the dead, it was a hypothetical 'what if' that was not actually possible.

I look forward to YOUR insight.

Arthur

Hello Arthur, calvin here;
This that you raise has often troubled me too.
My present understanding of this matter is that the writer is intent on leaving the basic gospel preaching and move on from milk to meat.
Heb 6:1,2, Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.
..................................................

My thinking is that the only point in preaching again and again and again those elementary things within the context of an established church group would be to convince again and again and again those who willl not/can not make or keep a life saving change in their attitude toward the Lord. They would be like the seed that falls on the rocky ground (Mark 4:16,17).
So we need to get on with the task of watering and watch the Lord bring the increase.
That is my current understanding anyway. You or others might see things differntly and that is Okay too. I actually left a church were there was tanker loads of milk but no meat to nourish my soul.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was wondering if it would be OK if I poked this a bit as a Calvinist. No rabid spitting, just some 'what do you think' questions.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Why "If they shall fall away"?
That wording always bothered me. He didn't say 'Those that do fall away' which would have made it perfectly clear that some not only can, but have. He said 'If they shall' which in English is a sort of 'what if' type of hypothetical. Maybe you can fall away, and maybe you can't ... the author of Hebrews is not saying, but 'IF' you can, then ...

The 'then' always bothered me, too.
"It is impossible ... to renew them unto repentance".
Really? I mean the Bible says it, so it must be true, but I thought that "with God, all things are possible".
Furthermore, I read that the only sin that would not be forgiven was "blaspheming the Holy Spirit".
That isn't blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is it? Then which verses are being misunderstood?

... unless the "IF" is only hypothetical without actually being possible. Like 'If Christ was not raised from the dead'. There is no actual possibility that Christ was not raised from the dead, it was a hypothetical 'what if' that was not actually possible.

I look forward to YOUR insight.

Arthur

No spitting!!

Hi Arthur,

Your questions bring up a point I've been trying to make all along.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to take one verse or thought and make a doctrine out of it. You note the perfect example in Hebrews 6:4-6.
Of course, one can return to God! How many times does a person get mad at God and stay away even for years, and then they repent and come back to Him?? God is always waiting with open arms. The parable of the Prodigal Son shows this. Jesus Himself told the parable and HE knew what He wanted to say. We don't know why Paul wrote this (or whoever wrote Hebrews, I think he did - or maybe he didn't and thus the "discrepancy!").

The bible is not to be read verse by verse, but as a whole and entire thought and concept - only then will it make any sense to us.
Also, God did not dictate the bible. Men are flawed and, although it IS the word of God, it is the INSPIRED word of God. It may not be 100% perfect. Like with this verse, for instance. Jesus always comes first, then Paul and then everyone else.

So, IF THEY SHOULD FALL AWAY, OR SHALL...

Actually, in English, SHALL means that they DO fall away. You're thinking of the word "should", "if they SHOULD fall away", that would mean what you're saying. Shall means they DO fall away. (I SHALL go to the store = I WILL go to the store).

Please check Young's Literal Translation. It says:
"AND HAVING FALLEN AWAY"
That means they DID fall away.

In any case, if one gives a hypothetical scenario, it means that the scenario IS possible.

Regarding the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit:
If you do not believe, it is the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Correct.
You fall away, that is unbelief, it is blaspheming.
You return, you are in belief, you are no longer blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
What is important is that you are not in this sin at death.

I really appreciate how you like to think things through.
If you do not agree, please state so. But the above is doctrine from mainline churches.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Arthur, calvin here;
This that you raise has often troubled me too.
My present understanding of this matter is that the writer is intent on leaving the basic gospel preaching and move on from milk to meat.
Heb 6:1,2, Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this we will do if God permits.
..................................................

My thinking is that the only point in preaching again and again and again those elementary things within the context of an established church group would be to convince again and again and again those who willl not/can not make or keep a life saving change in their attitude toward the Lord. They would be like the seed that falls on the rocky ground (Mark 4:16,17).
So we need to get on with the task of watering and watch the Lord bring the increase.
That is my current understanding anyway.

Hi Calvin,
Nothing to be troubled about!
Re-read the Prodigal Son.
The son was safe at home with his father.
He took his inheritance and left, never to go back.
The son changed his mind.
He went back.
The father ran to greet him and made a feast for him.

Jesus told this parable.
Trust Jesus.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

How am I doing the same thing when I accept words and phrases at face value without twisting them around??

Please reference any dictionary that lists the meaning of "possess" as "not letting go".
Words mean different things to different people and when they are used in different contexts. I get that. If "possess" means "to not let go"' to you, fine. You are simply using a meaning for the word most people don't mean when they use "possess". It does not mean "to not let go" at face value, as you claim. No dictionary will list your meaning as a meaning for the word "possess". But if you think it does, fine.

But the real issue is what the word Paul used meant to them. And it meant possess (with emphasis) to THEM. Like a firm anchor holds a ship in place. As I proved by referencing a reputable, freely available Greek Lexicon that translated the word Paul used in the subject verse as "possess" in another verse. Yet you siad I was changing it's meaning. No I wasn't. I used it's meaning.

Here's a non-Greek example. The other morning going fishing at daylight I found one of those Yeti tumbler cups on the beach, left from the obvious party the night before. It had Grateful Dead stickers and a "Mary Jane" sticker on it. My 17 year old daughter saw it and said she wanted it but said people would think it belonged to someone named Mary Jane. I laughed and asked her if she didn't know what Mary Jane was. She said no. I said good! She probably doesn't know who Grateful Dead are either.

1 Corinthians 15:2 (LEB) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word [the Gospel] which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Or

1 Corinthians 15:2 (Chessman) by the Gospel Paul preached (including Christ's resurrection) you are saved, if you possess the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (believe there is no ressurection).

Or

1 Corinthians 15:2 (Wondering) by which also you are saved, if you 'don't let go' the word which I preached to you, unless 'you let go' of your belief.

I have more than adequately defended my view of the passage and have changed precisely zero of the meaning of the words Paul used in doing so.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since you keep repeating that there is no evidence from scripture to support the notion that 'ceasing to believe' can be equated with 'ceasing to be saved', let's try one more time:

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9 makes a clear link between "confess", "believe" and "saved".
Do you refute the promise that those who confess and believe will be saved?


Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:13 presents a 'what if' of people who
1. "hear", "receive", and "believe" (for a while)
... are they "saved"? Why or why not? Was Romans 10:9-10 untrue ... did they "believe" and were not "saved"?

2. These same people (who "believed" per Luke 8:13 and were "saved" per Romans 10:9) did "fall away".
... are they still "saved"? Explain being "saved" and "fallen away" at the same time.

(I am only 'picking on you' because you are the one who sees "no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.")

 

[GodsGrace]

Please reference any dictionary that lists the meaning of "possess" as "not letting go".
Words mean different things to different people and when they are used in different contexts. I get that. If "possess" means "to not let go"' to you, fine. You are simply using a meaning for the word most people don't mean when they use "possess". It does not mean "to not let go" at face value, as you claim. No dictionary will list your meaning as a meaning for the word "possess". But if you think it does, fine.

But the real issue is what the word Paul used meant to them. And it meant possess (with emphasis) to THEM. Like a firm anchor holds a ship in place. As I proved by referencing a reputable, freely available Greek Lexicon that translated the word Paul used in the subject verse as "possess" in another verse. Yet you siad I was changing it's meaning. No I wasn't. I used it's meaning.

Here's a non-Greek example. The other morning going fishing at daylight I found one of those Yeti tumbler cups on the beach, left from the obvious party the night before. It had Grateful Dead stickers and a "Mary Jane" sticker on it. My 17 year old daughter saw it and said she wanted it but said people would think it belonged to someone named Mary Jane. I laughed and asked her if she didn't know what Mary Jane was. She said no. I said good! She probably doesn't know who Grateful Dead are either.

1 Corinthians 15:2 (LEB) by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word [the Gospel] which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Or

1 Corinthians 15:2 (Chessman) by the Gospel Paul preached (including Christ's resurrection) you are saved, if you possess the Word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (believe there is no ressurection).

Or

1 Corinthians 15:2 (Wondering) by which also you are saved, if you 'don't let go' the word which I preached to you, unless 'you let go' of your belief.

I have more than adequately defended my view of the passage and have changed precisely zero of the meaning of the words Paul used in doing so.

I'm sorry Chessman.
The above is nonsense to me and I don't have the time available for word games.
The bible says what it says. It doesn't require pages of posts to understand possess or hold fast.

The bottom line is this:

YOU BELIEVE - YOU'RE SAVED
YOU DON'T BELIEVE - YOU'RE NOT SAVED

Not much more to know.

BTW
Webster Dictionary:

1. Possess(verb)
   
   to occupy in person; to hold or actually have in one's own keeping; to have and to hold
   
   
2. Possess(verb)
   
   to have the legal title to; to have a just right to; to be master of; to own; to have; as, to possess property, an estate, a book
   
   
3. Possess(verb)
   
   to obtain occupation or possession of; to accomplish; to gain; to seize
   
   
4. Possess(verb)
   
   to enter into and influence; to control the will of; to fill; to affect; -- said especially of evil spirits, passions, etc
   
   
5. Possess(verb)
   
   to put in possession; to make the owner or holder of property, power, knowledge, etc.; to acquaint; to inform; -- followed by of or with before the thing possessed, and now commonly used reflexively

Wondering

 

[chessman]

to occupy in person; to hold or actually have in one's own keeping; to have and to hold

Excellent. To be occupied by the Word is to be saved. We have/possess a Keeper. That's my point.

 

[chessman]

The bottom line is this:

YOU BELIEVE - YOU'RE SAVED
YOU DON'T BELIEVE - YOU'RE NOT SAVED

Not much more to know.

How about if you believe Jesus was not ressurected, are you saved?

YOU BELIEVE - that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures - YOU'RE SAVED

YOU DON'T BELIEVE in His ressurection - YOU'RE NOT SAVED

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a cute story.
It makes me think of the one lost sheep and how the shepherd left the 99 behind to go find the one that was lost.
If you belong to Jesus, you'll be back.
Say what you want, but the ones that truly belong to Jesus always come back.

I've always agreed with you that it's really difficult for one that knows Jesus to abandon Him.
But if Paul made the allowance in all my postings above, then WE have to make that allowance also.

If one reads what you wrote they would be worried about not knowing if they are one of the "truly" that belong to Jesus.
This could set worry in a person. How am I to know if I "truly" love Jesus or am saved??

I must look to myself. If I give my heart to the Lord, then I can know that I am saved. I can rest assured of this.

I'd also like to say that the concept of OSAS did not enter the church until John Calvin in the 1500's. The early followers of Christ did not know about this concept. They urged followers to live the right lives to be pleasing to God.

“And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine…” Acts 2:42

The “apostles’ doctrine” is the compilation of the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles who wrote the Holy Spirit inspired books which make up the canon of the New Testament. Nothing could be nor ever will be more authoritatively divine than Holy Scripture.

This chapter will feature the intriguing and telling words of some of the earliest servants of Christ who lived to carry forth the Gospel and work of Jesus after the twelve were deceased. One should witness a consistency in these words with the doctrine of Christ and His holy apostles as recorded in the New Testament Scriptures. These early disciples spoke in accordance with the oracles of God (1 Pet. 4:11). Regrettably, as time went on under this New Covenant era, the prophesied apostasy in the church world began to transpire and escalate. Deceivers began to wax worse and worse and they will continue until the return of our LORD and the ultimate setting up of His eternal kingdom (2 Tim. 3:13).

These men, whose words you are about to read, were not far removed from the original apostles of our LORD and His Gospel and held fast to His Word – “the apostle’s doctrine.” (Acts 2:42)

“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)

“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)

There is much more and it can be found here:
http://safeguardyoursoul.com/what-early-church-fathers-said-about-eternal-security/

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

How about if you believe Jesus was not ressurected, are you saved?

YOU BELIEVE - that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures - YOU'RE SAVED

YOU DON'T BELIEVE in His ressurection - YOU'RE NOT SAVED

Of course you're correct.
IF Jesus was not resurrected from the dead He was just another man and the Apostles told lies throughout the N.T.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Excellent. To be occupied by the Word is to be saved. We have/possess a Keeper. That's my point.

I'm sorry. I don't understand your point.
By the Word, do you mean Jesus?

 

[chessman]

I'm sorry. I don't understand your point.
By the Word, do you mean Jesus?

Yes

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes

I agree 100%.
Jesus is our keeper, as you say.

If we are in Jesus, we are saved.
If we are not in Jesus, we are not saved.

Are we good?

 

[chessman]

Are we good?

Sure.

But what's your definition of good?
Just kidding

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please note in John 10:28 that Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. And also note that He added NO conditions for the believer to NEVER PERISH.

Lol, look at what you said.
You said he added no condition for the BELIEVER to never perish.
I see this all the time. OSASer's who use scriptures that have in them the very thing they are refuting.