Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

You love Romans.
You hate James.

You've just violated forum rules. I LOVE James. Stop judging others when there is NO evidence for it.

" faith without works is dead".

The problem is your misunderstanding of James. But let's not get off track here, ok?

 

[GodsGrace]

Please don't misquote Scripture. Jesus NEVER said anything about being "saved for a time". He SAID "believe for a while". We mustn't assume what isn't stated plainly.


Well, you're just believing an opinion.


Untrue. Paul described several gifts of God in Romans, including justification and eternal life, before he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable.


By the second century, the idea of grace had been twisted about, leading to the RCC, which viewed salvation as sometime to earn and could be lost.

I'm at a real disadvantage. No computer no bible.
Just imagine if I had those what I could do!!

1. I might have misguoted a bit but:
" saved for a time" or " believe for a while" = same difference...

2. This is NOT an opinion. Please read some history of the church.

3. Justification IS a gift from God.
Eternal life also, AFTER we're dead.

4. Grace?
No question BUT, I do beg everyone to read the didache.

It can be googled easily.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have already, in another thread.

In 1 Thess 5:4-10, Paul contrasts the lifestyle of unbelievers with the lifestyle of believers. That's how to understand v.10.

You're welcome.

No bible here.
Care to post your verses?

 

[smaller]

I could sin and still be saved.

When did you or any believer stop being a sinner? You do understand that various forms of false christianity sell that notion to their masses. That they are temporarily sinless or other forms of excuses of and for the fact of actually being a sinner.

Paul wound up the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great! Then I'll consider taking your car AND house keys! Thanks for the tip.

Sheesh. It appears I'm not the one unfamiliar with law. lol

Cute.
If you rent an apt, who. " owns" it, you or the renter??
Are you allowed to enter their apt at will??
No. For those reading along.

Car. Are YOU driving your car if someone has stolen it, or are they??
And what if the serial no is changed? How do you prove it's even yours?
But we digress...

 

[chessman]

There's nothing there about 'not really' believing the gospel when they first heard it making the faith of the Corinthians vain.

Really??? Again, only if your particular eyes don't see what's there.

How does someone who says that there is no resurrection of the dead (as some of them did) obtain salvation in the first place on your view?

Why does Paul say that those who believe there is no ressurection of the dead are "still in there sins"?

Paul himself tells us what "unless you believed in vain" means.

I know. It means their particular faith is worthless/empty (of salvation or forgiveness of sins) because they didn't believe in Christ's reserrection. It means they are still in their sins because they believed in vain.

It does NOT mean they once had a non-empty faith, once had forgiveness of sins, and once believed in the resurrection of Christ but no longer do as your position posits.

The 'if' signifies the condition for being presently saved. That condition being that you are presently holding fast the word, not rejecting it.

The "if" is not the condition. The conditions (and there are more than one condition) are the verbs (received, stand and hold fast). But what's even more important and you continue to miss is the Message.

The message has more than one important part too.

1. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and
2. that he was buried, and
3. that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures,

If they believed only 1 and 2 (which some did) and not all 3, guess what??? They believed in vain. They were still in their sins. They were not holding fast to what Paul actually preached by only believing 1 and 2.

 

[GodsGrace]

¿

He died for all ALL my sins as long as I have faith in Him to save me because I certainly cannot do it myself which is what I would be trying to do if I HAD NO FAITH in Him!!

I posted this:
"Here's a list of what changes when one believes and is saved.
1. They ARE saved. Eph 2:8, Acts 16:31
2. They HAVE eternal life. An irrevocable gift, btw. John 3:16, 6:40, 20:31
3. They ARE justified. Rom 5:1
4. They ARE forgiven for all sins, not just "past sins". Heb 9-10
5. They ARE children of God. John 1:12, 1 Tim 1:16, Gal 3:26
6. They HAVE an inheritance as children of God. Rom 8:17

All of these things MUST be UN-done if salvation can be lost.

So please provide the verses for each point that say that these things are UN-done, revoked, taken away, lost, forfeited, or any other wording that communicates loss."

Once again, your position fails to provide any verse that teaches that any of these things that occur at salvation can be UN-done.


Where is this taught in Scripture?


Good heavens!! We all still continue to sin.
1 John 1:8, 10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. NIV

If sin causes loss of salvation, then Jesus Christ died for NOTHING. But He died for our sins. All of them. But your position seems unaware of that fact.


Why assume that Jesus was speaking of how to be saved in that text??

Regarding continuing to sin.
You should be intellectually honest. You know very well that I said we are safe from all sin as long as we believe.

You don't seem to be really listening to me whereas I understand your position very well.

 

[atpollard]

If perseverance is necessary for ultimate salvation, then one's salvation is by works, not by grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. NIV
There are no verses that say or teach this.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Does Paul count?
What does it mean to "preached to others" and yet be himself "disqualified for the prize".


1 John 2:18-19
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

"They went out from us" means that 'they' were once among 'us' but now 'they' are not. I said no more and no less than John.
To deny that there is a difference between the visible church and the invisible church is folly. Clearly everyone sitting in a pew is not saved. Nor is every 'church member' unquestionably part of the 'elect' (John 6:39).

I have stated, and maintain, that from God's perspective, those whom the Father has given to the Son and will not be lost but raised on the last day is obvious ... so verses like John 6:39 speak of cretainty.
I have stated, and maintain, that from man's perspective, the invisible and visible church are less obvious for us to differentiate ... so verses like 1 Corinthians 9: 27 and 1 John 2:19 speak of doubt and effort.

Perseverance is necessary to tell the wheat from the tares. Sitting in the visible church, they both look similar. It is NOT the effort of the wheat and tare that makes the difference, it is God that causes them both to grow and reveal their true destiny. From the human point of view, the chosen produce fruit, but it was God who prepared those works in advance (Eph 2:10), yet James tells us that where there are no works, there is only a dead, ineffectual faith (James 2:26). These are not contradictory, these are two truths based on different views of the same reality.

That is why both Calvinists and Arminians rush to scripture to support their 'truth'. There are two perspectives that need to be reconciled to arrive at Truth. This is where Universalism and Hyper-Calvinism both fail ... they reject half of the perspective given in scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everything after "ALL my sins" is nonsense.

Please show the verse that says "as long as...". Such a statement is adding to Scripture what ISN'T THERE.

It's not in scripture that it is our faith that saves us?
Try Ephesians 2:8

What happens when we no longer have that faith?
2 Peter 2:22 comes to mind.
( hope I got the verse correct)

 

[smaller]

You love Romans.
You hate James.
" faith without works is dead".

Belief in Christ IS a working of God in those who believe:

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Contrary to popular belief Jesus DOES finish what He Starts.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Over the years I have met many many believers who most would consider unbelievers because they don't or didn't do X (whatever some other believer happens to think.) They still believe Jesus Is Lord. They just don't believe the other believers, get fed up with them, and go back to the world where they are actually "accepted" by others. Quite a shame, really. But that's how "church" rolls.

 

[GodsGrace]

You've just violated forum rules. I LOVE James. Stop judging others when there is NO evidence for it.


The problem is your misunderstanding of James. But let's not get off track here, ok?

I was not judging YOU by saying you hate James.
I meant, of course, that you must hate what he has to say.
Yes. Let's get off track.
What was James saying exactly?

 

[GodsGrace]

And which murderer are you referring to that quoted this?
I don't believe there has been one.
Now King David was a murderer as was Paul.
But their change toward God came afterwards.
They were no longer murderers, they were saved forever.

Let me ask a general question here?
Why are people so afraid of God?
Why are Christians afraid of God?
They are afraid they might do something wrong and God will punish them and take away their salvation.
Why do they look at the flesh of another and determine how God looks at that person?

Why can't we be happy, that God gives us eternal life, and then build each other up to do good and please God all the days of our lives?
And if some fail to do this, then we pray for them.
There's no reason to debate forever if such a person is really saved or not.
Because the answer is that it's out of our control anyway.

So I ask again, why are Christians living in daily fear that they might die and God will throw them into the lake of fire for all eternity?
It's because they have no victory in Jesus.
Somewhere along the way, they've lost their joy.

Well, get it back.
He that is in you is stronger than he that is in the world.
What you are going through is a trial, a spiritual trial and the enemy would love to win and keep you defeated your whole life.
He wants to take away your joy and keep you worried and end up doing nothing to further God's kingdom.

Don't quit.
Put on the full armor of God right now!
And go out there and prove you are a winner!

You're a very spiritual person Allen Wynne.
I cannot argue with you since the Holy Spirit tells me not to argue against Him.
I would only like to say for myself that I am not afraid of God. I trust my eternal soul to His safekeeping.
The joy of the Lord is with me even if it may not seem so.

I don't usually argue, but this seems important to me.
We're not arguing who is saved and who isn't , that's for God to know.
We're arguing whether or not it's possible to fall from grace and how.

Although highly unlikely once a person comes to know the Lord I do believe the bible says that we Can fall away and it's dangerous to teach otherwise.

Blessings
Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

When did you or any believer stop being a sinner? You do understand that various forms of false christianity sell that notion to their masses. That they are temporarily sinless or other forms of excuses of and for the fact of actually being a sinner.

Paul wound up the chief of sinners, after salvation. 1 Tim. 1:15.

I agree with you Smaller

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

How?

Sorry,if you fail to understand, then I shouldn't have said what I did.
Roman Catholicism is not allowed here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Really??? Again, only if your particular eyes don't see what's there.

How does someone who says that there is no resurrection of the dead (as some of them did) obtain salvation in the first place on your view?

Why does Paul say that those who believe there is no ressurection of the dead are "still in there sins"?


I know. It means their particular faith is worthless/empty (of salvation or forgiveness of sins) because they didn't believe in Christ's reserrection. It means they are still in their sins because they believed in vain.

It does NOT mean they once had a non-empty faith, once had forgiveness of sins, and once believed in the resurrection of Christ but no longer do as your position posits.

The "if" is not the condition. The conditions (and there are more than one condition) are the verbs (received, stand and hold fast). But what's even more important and you continue to miss is the Message.

The message has more than one important part too.

1. Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and
2. that he was buried, and
3. that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures,

If they believed only 1 and 2 (which some did) and not all 3, guess what??? They believed in vain. They were still in their sins. They were not holding fast to what Paul actually preached by only believing 1 and 2.

IF Is the condition. Don't even have to know Greek.

 

[GodsGrace]

Belief in Christ IS a working of God in those who believe:

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Contrary to popular belief Jesus DOES finish what He Starts.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Over the years I have met many many believers who most would consider unbelievers because they don't or didn't do X (whatever some other believer happens to think.) They still believe Jesus Is Lord. They just don't believe the other believers, get fed up with them, and go back to the world where they are actually "accepted" by others. Quite a shame, really. But that's how "church" rolls.

I agree. Christianity isn't a Doing, it's a Being.
But that Bring also let's us do.
And I'd like to repeat that I, a sinner, judge no one.

 

[LovethroughDove]

There were those who didn't believe, as they stopped following, and there was Judas who betrayed Him.

• Judas was not among those who didn't believe.
• Those who didn't believe were not counted as the one who betrayed Him

JLB

You and I are understanding scripture way different, so I will have to not engage with the discussion.

 

[smaller]

Here are some things I've found to be false presentations from various churches:

God needs something from me in order to save me.
God needs my $$$.
God is/isn't pleased with me.
Gods adverse judgments are vacated/placated if I do (X-insert whatever formula you please).

None of the above are truthful claims.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It's unfortunate that so many believers try to convince themselves or others that Christ is insufficient for the task of salvation.

I don't consider that the status of being Gods enemy changes after salvation either. And for this I cite Paul's facts:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This contrary status is NOT removed after salvation regardless of any claims to the contrary.

Paul retained this condition of fact after salvation:

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

This "evil present" is NOT the buddy and good friend of God in Christ, assuredly NOT.

Nor is sin that dwells in our flesh removed after salvation:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

We can certainly try to soft sell our way past the facts above, but it will not cut the mustard of being truthful to the discourses of Paul.

Jesus advised us all quite clearly that evil comes from within. This doesn't change after salvation:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28

When we are HONEST about ourselves, it is far easier to be reconciled into HIS LIFE.

 

[smaller]

I agree. Christianity isn't a Doing, it's a Being.
But that Bring also let's us do.
And I'd like to repeat that I, a sinner, judge no one.

Quickly followed by, "but God does."

Don't we know that we have all, already been judged and condemned?

Romans 7:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The death sentence didn't change after salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Does Paul count?
What does it mean to "preached to others" and yet be himself "disqualified for the prize".


1 John 2:18-19
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

"They went out from us" means that 'they' were once among 'us' but now 'they' are not. I said no more and no less than John.
To deny that there is a difference between the visible church and the invisible church is folly. Clearly everyone sitting in a pew is not saved. Nor is every 'church member' unquestionably part of the 'elect' (John 6:39).

I have stated, and maintain, that from God's perspective, those whom the Father has given to the Son and will not be lost but raised on the last day is obvious ... so verses like John 6:39 speak of cretainty.
I have stated, and maintain, that from man's perspective, the invisible and visible church are less obvious for us to differentiate ... so verses like 1 Corinthians 9: 27 and 1 John 2:19 speak of doubt and effort.

Perseverance is necessary to tell the wheat from the tares. Sitting in the visible church, they both look similar. It is NOT the effort of the wheat and tare that makes the difference, it is God that causes them both to grow and reveal their true destiny. From the human point of view, the chosen produce fruit, but it was God who prepared those works in advance (Eph 2:10), yet James tells us that where there are no works, there is only a dead, ineffectual faith (James 2:26). These are not contradictory, these are two truths based on different views of the same reality.

That is why both Calvinists and Arminians rush to scripture to support their 'truth'. There are two perspectives that need to be reconciled to arrive at Truth. This is where Universalism and Hyper-Calvinism both fail ... they reject half of the perspective given in scripture.

You have an interesting perspective which I don't totally understand.
I'd like to say that universalism cannot be true.
Calvinism presents me with a God who, before time, picked some of His created humans to go to hell.
Is this a God one could love?
I think not.

Wondering