Perfection?

[GojuBrian]

I completely agree with you Pard. There are many words that are misinterpretated in the bible. Say for instance "virgin". I do not have my notes in front of me so I do not remember what was used, but the literal translation for the greek word is "a young maiden". There is a word for virgin that only means virgin but it is not used.

The notion of perfection is more implied through that of maturity and spiritual growth. It does not mean that we can never do any thing wrong because that would be impossible. There is even evidence in the bible that Jesus sinned. Read the NT all the way through without blinders on and you will find it (like I said I do not have my notes ) It never implies that you should never do anything wrong. It merely states that you should seek out forgiveness for those transactions to attain salvation. Wrongdoing will happen whether you mean it to or not. It is not the work of the "devil" but rather human nature. We have instincts which go against our own societal doctrines. We feel guilty for things that would be considered necessary if we were still hunter gatherers. Shedding that guilt and negative feelings is the path towards salvation, not necessarily being perfect.

Despite what you say, the bible remains true! Jesus was born of a virgin. Pard was NOT saying otherwise mr.wordtwister.

 

[jasoncran]

shedding guilt is not the way to salvattion, but rather acknowedge the sin and then repenting and also righting the situation if possible. ie you were rude to someone and the lord told you that you were rude, repent to the lord first then also find that person and apologise.

 

[Adullam]

If we abide in Christ, we abide in His completeness. If He abides in us, His completeness becomes our reality. There is no sin in Christ.

 

[watchman F]

It is such an interesting thing to note that this perfection doctrine has only come about after English translations of the Bible came about. Why is this? I'll tell you why. In Greek, the word used that is so often translated to "perfect" means many things besides this. In fact, the better translation is "mature" or "full-grown" or "complete". The Greek word is "teleios", and it is interesting to note that while "teleios" can be loosely translated to "perfect" there is a word that only means "perfect" and it was in use at the time. Now, I'd love to tell you that word, but I don't speak Greek, my cousin does, and he told me about this because we like to talk about crazy doctrines, like the perfectionist one.

As you will see, when you use the proper translation of either "mature" or "full-grown" in place of "perfection" not only does it make sense, it truly brings the Bible into an even greater and deeper context.

I see your folly may very well be in such a small thing as translation. You ought to own many Bible translations (or learn Hebrew and Greek) and own, at the very least, Strong's Hebrew&Greek.

So what your saying is you do not believe God word when He speaks through Jude saying this.
Jude:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

The Greek word translated ''falling'' literally mean ''from sin''. God tells us He is able to keep us from sinning and is able to present us to Himself faultless. Do you call God a liar?

 

[watchman F]

The notion of perfection is more implied through that of maturity and spiritual growth. It does not mean that we can never do any thing wrong because that would be impossible.

There is nothing impossible with God.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â€

Furthermore scriptures tells us God can do more in us, with us , and for us than we can even think, according to the power that is IN US.
Ephesians 3:20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

If I think God can perfect me and free me from all sin, not only can He but He will, and much more will He do for those that believe in and trust in Him.

God's word trumps all your philosophisophical determinations.

 

[Pard]

WM,

You are well older than I am. Shouldn't you beyond such tasteless tactics as putting words into my mouth? Let's not twist my words simply because you do not wish to remove your blinders. I have never, not even once, called, implied, or assumed God is a liar.

So, if you wish to continue in this way, of twisting words, I will be more than happy to assume you have no where else to run, and thus that I am victorious in this debate of ours.

Back to point, yes, we all know that God CAN do anything, but the question of whether or not He WILL do it is entirely different. God can make me into a blue, three headed lobster with ten sets of wings and a dog tail. The question is not whether He CAN, but whether He WILL, and in this case He will NOT. And until you can actually show me somewhere where God calls us to be perfect IN THIS BODY OF FLESH AND ON THIS SINFUL EARTH I will continue in fully knowing that God will NOT be making anyone sinless while they still posses a body of flesh.

 

[watchman F]

WM,

You are well older than I am. Shouldn't you beyond such tasteless tactics as putting words into my mouth?

I didn't put words in your mouth. God's word says He can keep us from sinning and present us to Himself faultless, you say He cannot. I am just curious, are you calling God a liar? and if not then why do you not believe His word?

 

[watchman F]

Back to point, yes, we all know that God CAN do anything, but the question of whether or not He WILL do it is entirely different.

Why would God take the time to tell Jude to write that God able to keep us from sin, if this is not God's intention?

 

[watchman F]

IN THIS BODY OF FLESH AND ON THIS SINFUL EARTH I will continue in fully knowing that God will NOT be making anyone sinless while they still posses a body of flesh.

Now without putting any words in your mouth i can boldly state that you ARE calling god a liar. God's word tells us He can and will keep us from sin and present us faultless, and you say He will not. Therefore you ARE indeed calling God a liar.

 

[Pard]

Now without putting any words in your mouth i can boldly state that you ARE calling god a liar. God's word tells us He can and will keep us from sin and present us faultless, and you say He will not. Therefore you ARE indeed calling God a liar.

And this is why I put the words in caps...

IN THIS BODY OF FLESH AND ON THIS SINFUL EARTH I will continue in fully knowing that God will NOT be making anyone sinless while they still posses a body of flesh.

God will make us sinless and perfect, and He will do it in His time. He will do it when we are no longer part of "THIS BODY OF FLESH AND ON THIS SINFUL EARTH". So, let's read what I a say before jumping to conclusions... Maybe you should try that same idea with the Bible too.

 

[watchman F]

God will make us sinless and perfect, and He will do it in His time. He will do it when we are no longer part of "THIS BODY OF FLESH AND ON THIS SINFUL EARTH". So, let's read what I a say before jumping to conclusions... Maybe you should try that same idea with the Bible too.

The bible says Here and now He will make us sinless. Matter of fact the main reason Jesus died is so that we could be free from sin, free to live sinlessly through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

When people say that we are not to make sin a habit, but yet everyone sins, and will not be completely freed from sin until the resurrection. They do not truly believe (have faith in the fact) that the Son can make us free indeed.

 

[Pard]

So that I may try and understand where you are coming from...

Do you believe that the gifts and wealth of God will be given to us in this life or the next?

 

[Neo]

I'm not even gonna touch this one.

 

[watchman F]

So that I may try and understand where you are coming from...

Do you believe that the gifts and wealth of God will be given to us in this life or the next?

Depends on what gifts you are speaking of, if you mean our inheritance then the next as our inheritance is our immortal bodies and life eternal with Christ. However that does not change the fact that God has feed us from our sin now here today by the sacrifice of His Son

 

[Pard]

So that I may try and understand where you are coming from...

Do you believe that the gifts and wealth of God will be given to us in this life or the next?

Depends on what gifts you are speaking of, if you mean our inheritance then the next as our inheritance is our immortal bodies and life eternal with Christ. However that does not change the fact that God has feed us from our sin now here today by the sacrifice of His Son

I was referring to the gifts many evangelists use to persuade people into coming to Christ.

 

[watchman F]

So that I may try and understand where you are coming from...

Do you believe that the gifts and wealth of God will be given to us in this life or the next?

Depends on what gifts you are speaking of, if you mean our inheritance then the next as our inheritance is our immortal bodies and life eternal with Christ. However that does not change the fact that God has feed us from our sin now here today by the sacrifice of His Son

I was referring to the gifts many evangelists use to persuade people into coming to Christ.

Like what??? The only gift I offer is salvation from sin in this life, and eternal life in the next. You have already stated you reject the first gift.

 

[Pard]

No, you think that we are given the gift of perfection in this life of flesh. I think we receive perfection in the next life and not this one. I fully believe that we are given salvation in this life, so that we may live eternally in the next.

Anyways, you seem to be on the straight in the respect which I was questioning you on. Some people believe that some of the wondrous gifts of God will be received in this life. It is generally a secular stance, that we will receive everything in this life, and not the next. Don't worry it doesn't pertain to you.

totopic

Do you sin at all? If you claim to be perfect, do you still sin at all?

 

[westtexas]

There is even evidence in the bible that Jesus sinned. Read the NT all the way through without blinders on and you will find it

I have read it many times and haven't seen the part you are refering to!! I've got the blinders off now so it's your turn to show us where this part of the NT is at!
Westtexas

 

[Pard]

There is even evidence in the bible that Jesus sinned. Read the NT all the way through without blinders on and you will find it

I have read it many times and haven't seen the part you are refering to!! I've got the blinders off now so it's your turn to show us where this part of the NT is at!
Westtexas

I even went and read Matthew over, figuring it may be in Matt... and nope, no sinning on the part of J.C.!

 

[watchman F]

No, you think that we are given the gift of perfection in this life of flesh. I think we receive perfection in the next life and not this one. I fully believe that we are given salvation in this life, so that we may live eternally in the next.

So what does Paul mean when he says we have been freed from sin?
Rom 6:20-22
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life

Do you sin at all? If you claim to be perfect, do you still sin at all?

Never claimed to be perfect. What I said is God says He can perfect us and that i am believing Him for that promise.

If someone with cancer believes God for healing and dies never receiving it does that mean God does not or cannot heal?

My perfection has nothing to do with the word of God, and I will stand on His word no matter what.