Perfection?

[XTruth]

What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
(Rom 7:7-25, ESV)

This passage of Romans 7 is actually a strong argument that seems to be contradicting the sinlessness and perfection that the gospel clearly commands and demands for eternal life... Paul is one of the many writers that actually claims we are to live this way. He comments on it often in 13 of his 14 books. So what is up with this chapter. Fact is, he was making the case to Jews that the law of Moses never made free from sin, but Christ does. You can see it in the contrasting chapters of Romans 7 and 8.

Whenever you see the word THEREFORE, it means in view of the previous.
[There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus] This proves that the experience of Rom. 7:7-24 was not Paul's at the time of the writing of Romans, for several reasons:

1. Paul had no condemnation (Rom. 8:1).
2. Paul was free from the law of sin (Rom. 8:2).
3. Paul was free from eternal death (Rom. 8:2).
4. Paul's sin condemned in his flesh (Rom. 8:3).
5. Paul was fulfilled righteousness (Rom. 8:4).
6. Paul had life and peace (Rom. 8:6).
7. Paul was Spirit-filled (Rom. 8:9-11).
8. Paul's body was dead to sin (Rom. 8:10).
9. Paul's flesh was crucified (Rom. 8:12-13).
10. Paul was walking in the Spirit and not after the flesh (Rom. 8:1-4; Gal. 5:16-26).

It will help you to learn the "laws" that are being referenced.... there are different laws, not all are speaking of the Mosaic law, which we are not to keep; but the laws of God are the same as b4 the law was given... moral and righteous laws to keep upright and just b4 a Holy God.
Eight Laws in Romans
1. Law of Moses (Rom. 2:12; 3:19; 7:12)
2. Law of nature (Rom. 2:14-15)
3. Law of faith (Rom. 3:27; 4:3-5,11-24)
4. Law of the mind (Rom. 7:16,21,23)
5. Law of sin (Rom. 8:23,25; 8:2)
6. Law of righteousness (Rom. 9:31)
7. Law of God (Rom. 7:22,25)
8. Law of the Spirit of life, that is, the Holy Spirit that works through the redemption of Christ to make free from, and to cancel the law of sin and death in all who are in Christ (Rom. 8:2)

Fifteen Things that the Law of Moses Could Not Do
1. Justify (Acts 13:38-39; Gal. 2:16)
2. Free from sin and death (Rom. 8:2)
3. Free from condemnation (Rom. 8:1-4)
4. Redeem (Rom. 3:24-31; Gal. 3:13-14)
5. Give inheritance (Rom. 4:13-14)
6. Bring righteousness (Rom. 8:4)
7. Impart Holy Spirit (Gal. 3:2)
8. Perform miracles (Gal. 3:5)
9. Free from the curse (Gal. 3:10-14)
10. Impart faith (Gal. 3:12)
11. Impart grace (Gal. 5:4)
12. Make perfect (Heb. 7:19)
13. Control sin in man (Rom. 7:7-23; 8:2)
14. Keep man from sin (Rom. 7:7-23; 8:7)
15. Enable a man to obey (Heb. 7:18)

Romans 8:3 [weak] Greek: astheneo (GSN-<G770>), weak, impotent. The law was powerless to control the flesh, for sin already had control of it before the law came (Rom. 5:20; Gal. 3:19). Sin would not permit the flesh to obey the law (Rom. 7:7-23, notes).

 

[watchman F]

What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
(Rom 7:7-25, ESV)

This passage of Romans 7 is actually a strong argument that seems to be contradicting the sinlessness and perfection that the gospel clearly commands and demands for eternal life... Paul is one of the many writers that actually claims we are to live this way. He comments on it often in 13 of his 14 books. So what is up with this chapter. Fact is, he was making the case to Jews that the law of Moses never made free from sin, but Christ does. You can see it in the contrasting chapters of Romans 7 and 8.

Exactly Paul tells us in Romans 8 we are able to live sinlessly. Chapter 7 is setting up the answer to sinlessness, by telling how we cannot do it. Chapter 7 tells us that in our flesh we can do no good thing, chapter 8 tells us to therfore walk in the spirit and not in the flesh that we would be about to live sinlessly.
Romans 7:19-21
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil that i would not, that I do.
20 Now if i do that I would not, it is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that when I would do good evil is present with me.

This has to be one of the most misunderstood scriptures in all the Bible. The common belief is that Paul could not refrain himself from sin, therefore neither can we. The fact is it is through our own flesh that we cannot refrain from sin, but all of us through the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us can. Paul himself declared this in the following passages.


Romans 8:1-8
1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through our flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law God nor can it be.
8 So they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The whole purpose of this passage is to explain that we must not continue to be led by our own flesh, lust, and desire. But that we have to let the Spirit of God lead us into the freedom from sin that He sent His Son to give us. Those that walk in the Spirit will not sin therefore they indeed will not be condemned.

 

[bleeverhal]

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(Rom 8:9-14, emphasis mine - ESV)

John told us that if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us. Paul speaks of the warring of the members of his body, with his mind. We are taught to confess our sins to one another, and to forgive one another - the underlying assumption being that we will sin.

We know that the word of God is living and active...and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart; Jesus spoke of such intent often during His sermon on the mount, ascribing guilt on that basis, not conduct alone. David had a heart for God, and some rather egregious sin.

I have no doubt, Watchman, that your walk of faith may well be purer than that of a wretch such as I, but I rather doubt that it exceeds Paul's. Not that you explicitly claimed this, but it appears implicit based on Paul's comments.

I have three concerns about your understanding of this. First, that when you do sin, the failure can be said to be Christ's, since you ascribe full credit to Him for your ability to live sinlessly. Second, that God has a way of refining us in this life to assure that we are fully aware of our position and relationship to Him - and such lessons can come hard. And finally, that such a teaching can cause some to despair to the point of not progressing in the faith.

Brother, I bear you no animosity at all - quite the opposite, in fact - and I have said my piece, not looking for an argument. Obviously, I think you are in error on this point, and you think the same of me. You pray for me, and I will for you.

 

[watchman F]

John told us that if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us. Paul speaks of the warring of the members of his body, with his mind. We are taught to confess our sins to one another, and to forgive one another - the underlying assumption being that we will sin.

1st John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1st John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
There is no question that John is telling us to live sinless lives. However if we do sin we can ask for forgiveness. For you to extract one verse out of the whole of the message to cause it to seem to say the opposite of what the whole is saying is a dangerous error on your part, and sadly done way to often in the church.

I have no doubt, Watchman, that your walk of faith may well be purer than that of a wretch such as I, but I rather doubt that it exceeds Paul's. Not that you explicitly claimed this, but it appears implicit based on Paul's comments.

I believe Paul was able to reach a level of maturity before his death to where he did indeed live sinlessly.

 

[XTruth]

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(Rom 8:9-14, emphasis mine - ESV)

John told us that if we say we have no sin, the truth is not in us. Paul speaks of the warring of the members of his body, with his mind. We are taught to confess our sins to one another, and to forgive one another - the underlying assumption being that we will sin.

We know that the word of God is living and active...and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart; Jesus spoke of such intent often during His sermon on the mount, ascribing guilt on that basis, not conduct alone. David had a heart for God, and some rather egregious sin.

I have no doubt, Watchman, that your walk of faith may well be purer than that of a wretch such as I, but I rather doubt that it exceeds Paul's. Not that you explicitly claimed this, but it appears implicit based on Paul's comments.

I have three concerns about your understanding of this. First, that when you do sin, the failure can be said to be Christ's, since you ascribe full credit to Him for your ability to live sinlessly. Second, that God has a way of refining us in this life to assure that we are fully aware of our position and relationship to Him - and such lessons can come hard. And finally, that such a teaching can cause some to despair to the point of not progressing in the faith.

Brother, I bear you no animosity at all - quite the opposite, in fact - and I have said my piece, not looking for an argument. Obviously, I think you are in error on this point, and you think the same of me. You pray for me, and I will for you.

I'm confused, I would have boldened the same verse you did in Rom.8:9-14. It is true that one lives IF they put to death the deeds of the flesh... in other words: IF they stop sinning.
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting(Gal.6:7-8)."

"IF" is used 1522 times throughout Scripture and always means what is being said is based on a condition. The unrighteous come to Christ to be made righteous. After that they must follow the Spirit in order to stay righteous. Following the flesh brings forth death... spiritual condemnation/death.

Five If's of Human Experience (view 1 Jn.1:5-10 so there is no more confusion) Believing what you do about 1 Jn.1:8 would contradict vs.5-7 and 1 Jn.2:1, just 3 verses later... also 1 Jn.2:3-6 would be confusing if the assumption was that all will continue in sin. 1 Jn.2:1 says not to sin anymore; so does Paul in 1 Cor.15:33-34, which contradicts your thought on Rom.7. Also, 1 Cor.9:24-27 contradicts your thoughts on Rom.7.
1. The hypocrite (1Jn. 1:6). If we say we know God and still walk in darkness, our sins prove we are liars.
2. The Christian (1Jn. 1:7). If we walk in the light, we have fellowship with the Father and the Son (1Jn. 1:3) and the blood of Jesus Christ keeps us cleansed from all sin.
3. The self-deceiver (1Jn. 1:8). If we say we have no sin to confess, that is, we are not sinners, we deceive ourselves because we know better; and we lie. Gnostics and other heretics deny that they are sinners and that Christ's death atones for sin.
4. The penitent sinner (1Jn. 1:9). If we confess our sins, that is, if we will be honest and acknowledge we are sinners (Rom. 3:23), God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
5. The willful rebel against God (1Jn. 1:10). If we say that we have never sinned, we make God a liar and His Word is not in us. In 1Jn. 1:8 the idea is of contending that we are not guilty before God; here it is that we were never guilty.

Jesus says to sin no more, so does a Psamnist, Moses, Peter, and the rest... I have those references in my notes if needed. Your 3 concerns could be addressed individually, but I will give the following instead:

Sin (Romans 6:2,7,11; 1 Peter 2:24). These claim we should be dead to sin... so why believe that we will go to sin? Christians Should Not Suffer with sin which Christ suffered to cleanse us from completely (Matthew 1:21; Matthew 26:28; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Romans 1:21-32; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 Peter 4:15; 1 John 1:7-9; 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:8-10; 1 John 5:1-4,18).

And yet still, in keeping with the thread name, how do you address the plain facts that we are told to be perfect?
Five Commands to be Perfect:

1. To Abraham (Genesis 17:1)

2. To Israel (Deut. 18:13)

3. To Solomon (1 Kings 8:61)

4. To Christians (2 Cor. 13:11)

5. To everyone who wants eternal life (Mat.5:48)

Ten Things in which We can be Perfect:

1. In our walk (Genesis 17:1; Galatians 5:16,25)

2. In holiness (2 Cor. 7:1; Hebrews 12:14)

3. In our ways (2 Samuel 22:33; Psalm 18:32)

4. In peace (Isaiah 26:3)

5. In unity (John 17:23; 1 Cor. 1:10; Ephes. 4:13)

6. In good works (Hebrews 13:21; 2 Tim. 3:17)

7. In God's will (Romans 12:1-2)

8. In patience (James 1:4)

9. In faith (James 2:22)

10. In love (1 John 2:5; 1 John 4:17-18)

 

[watchman F]

I have three concerns about your understanding of this. First, that when you do sin, the failure can be said to be Christ's, since you ascribe full credit to Him for your ability to live sinlessly.

Although I do ascribe all credit to Christ for anything I do that is good for we no that without Him we can of ourselves do no good. I do not see how you can attribute our failers to Him for His seed is incorruptible and cannot sin, therefore in sin we commit is because of our flesh not because of Christ

Second, that God has a way of refining us in this life to assure that we are fully aware of our position and relationship to Him - and such lessons can come hard

I agree totally, and once we understand who we are in Him when we are able to grasp our position i think that will bring us closer to a sinless state.

And finally, that such a teaching can cause some to despair to the point of not progressing in the faith.

If this is the case then it is not because of any teaching but lack of intimacy
The is a quote from the a book written by Lou Ingle called ''Nazarite DNA''
''Nazitires who are not living with intimacy with the Lord also face the danger of self righteousness when they rejoice in their commentment to the Lord Jesus and not in Jesus Himself. Just like the Pharisee who despised the tax collector, in Luke 18:9, we will admire our own dedication while looking down on that of others. Too often we judge other by their actions, while judging ourselves by our intentions. The heart of those who rejoice in their own stregnth will end up in one of two pitfalls: either arrogance of accomplishment, like this pharisee, or self hatred as an unworthy son. Only embracing the grace of God to us with humility can help us avoid this''

(I actually use this quote in a lesson I taught on our identity in Christ)

Brother, I bear you no animosity at all - quite the opposite, in fact - and I have said my piece, not looking for an argument.

The same is true for me toward you.

Obviously, I think you are in error on this point, and you think the same of me.

Most are in error on this subject as well as many others

You pray for me, and I will for you.

I appreciate that, and I will


P.S. we are no longer wretches, we are not sinners saved by grace we are the Bride of the King. When we realize this and change our paradigms then we will live like royalty rather than sinners.

 

[jasoncran]

a book written a mans interpretation of scriptured showed you that doctrine?

odd when i examined eternal security i made sure that i didnt read any book other then the bible about it or listen to pastors who used scriptures only for that.

 

[watchman F]

a book written a mans interpretation of scriptured showed you that doctrine?

If you are referring to me, and assuming I got my doctrine from Nazarite DNA then you are sadly mistaken and very presumptuous.(That book is not even about living sinlessly) I get my doctrine from the scriptures. I quoted the quote from Nazarite DNA because it said what I was trying to say as well as it could be said in reference to living in intimacy with Christ.

odd when i examined eternal security i made sure that i didnt read any book other then the bible about it or listen to pastors who used scriptures only for that.

That is the best way to get sound doctrine. You, the word, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

someone mentioned that greek for perfect has nothing to do with english word for perfect, it would better said, complete. as in mature.

 

[Pard]

someone mentioned that greek for perfect has nothing to do with english word for perfect, it would better said, complete. as in mature.

And this translation error can easily run one into thinking we are called to be perfect IN THIS LIFE OF THE FLESH.

For this reason, I think it would be wise to not use any scripture that uses the word "perfect", since I have shown it to be an error in translation.

 

[watchman F]

someone mentioned that greek for perfect has nothing to do with english word for perfect, it would better said, complete. as in mature.

And this translation error can easily run one into thinking we are called to be perfect IN THIS LIFE OF THE FLESH.

For this reason, I think it would be wise to not use any scripture that uses the word "perfect", since I have shown it to be an error in translation.

Among many scriptures that causes me to believe we can live sinlessly Galatians 5:16 is one of them, and doesn't even mention the word perfect.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Romans 6 (all of it really)
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And since you mention the Greek How about Jude:24 that in the Greek literally tells us word for word that God is able to keep us from sinning and present us to Himself faultless. Seeing as the Greek word translated falling actually means ''Sinning"

Jude:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

So your assumption that them mistranslation of the word perfect spawns this doctrine is just that, an assumption, and a incorrect one at that.

 

[XTruth]

Mt. 5:48 (IN VIEW OF WHAT HAD JUST BEEN TAUGHT) [perfect] Greek: teleios (GSN-<G5046>), complete in conformity to God's laws.

What a Christian Must Be:
1. Broken in spirit, burdened for others, meek, humble, hungry for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, wise, patient, loving, joyful, and gracious (Mt. 5:3-12)
2. Salt to preserve and a light to shine (Mt. 5:13-16)
3. A teacher and keeper of the truth (Mt. 5:17-19)
4. Free from hypocrisy, selfishness, and grudges (Mt. 5:20-24)
5. A peacemaker (Mt. 5:9,25-26)
6. Free from lusts (Mt. 5:27-30)
7. A family man (Mt. 5:31-32)
8. Truthful (Mt. 5:31-37)
9. Nonresistant to mistreatment (Mt. 5:38-41)
10. Charitable, neighborly, and God-like in society (Mt. 5:38-47)

All This Is Possible Through:
1. The new birth (2Cor. 5:17; 1Jn. 2:29; 3:5-10; 5:1-4,18)
2. Walking and living in the Spirit (Rom. 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26)
3. Proper use of Christian weapons (2Cor. 10:5-7; Eph. 6:10-18; Col. 2:6-10; 3:3-10; 2Tim. 2:21)

 

[XTruth]

This is a passage from the Dake Annotated Reference Bible and totally backed with Scripture. For those seekers who really want to understand what the Bible says on the matter, read on. For those that refuse to believe you can have victory over sin like the whole Bible says, then you can ridicule, scorn, say it doesn't count b/c I did not write it, or whatever you choose. No one here is forcing truth on anyone, nor could we...

DO BORN AGAIN PEOPLE SIN DAILY?

I am fully aware that literally thousands of religious teachers are constantly saying that no man can live free from sin, that we sin every day, and that there is no man that does not sin every day he lives. One can see that this teaching is entirely out of harmony with the Bible by reading the above Scriptures. If these men sin every day, then they are sinners every day and there is no time that they are not sinners. If they are sinners all the time, then there is no time they are not under the death penalty of the broken law, and they will be sent to Hell as sinners to pay the death penalty. They are not Christians or saved from sin any one day they live if they sin every day they live. Christ means nothing to them if they are sinners and if they cannot be saved from sin.

It is time that men wake up and stop listening to such men and begin to read the Bible and obey it for themselves. Naturally, no man that does not believe in salvation from sin can ever get saved from sin. If Christ came to save us from our sins and He cannot do it, then He has failed in His mission. If the New Testament teaches freedom from sin, then it is either the truth or a lie. If it is a lie, then we might as well throw the whole Bible away and have nothing to do with religion. Christianity, in that case, is a mere sham and a false religion, teaching something that is not true. If salvation through Christ is true, however, then these modern teachers of religion are false and -no man can safely believe them. It is not right to even listen to them deny the truths of the Bible. It is a sin to support them in such a program. If Christianity is a sham it is a sin to support it and its leaders.

Do not let men deceive you into thinking that there is no such thing as a clean, holy, and victorious life in Christ secure from sin, the flesh, the world, and the devil. If you are not saved from these things you are not saved from Hell, according to the Scriptures under Point 10, Chapter Five. There may not be such a life of freedom from sin as far as these teachers are concerned and as far as they know. Either they do not know the Bible and they do not have biblical experiences, or they are plain rebels against truth and refuse to get such blessings. In either case, you should not listen to them concerning such an important thing as your eternal welfare. Why not listen to the Scripture instead 7 It will not deceive you. It will always tell you the truth, as you can see from Scriptures in Point I above.

The other day a young man called to question my Bible doctrine of a Christian being free from sin. I named adultery, fornication, and all the sins listed under Point 10, Chapter Five, and asked him in connection with each one of them if he were guilty of these sins. He said he was not guilty of them. I asked if he was committing these sins daily and he said he was not. I asked him if he thought he could live free from these sins daily, and he answered that he could. He said that he was a Christian and that the only thing he knew he was doing that could be wrong was smoking. I asked him if he thought he could get rid of that and live free from it every day. He answered that he could. I then asked him if he thought he would be living free from sin if he were free from all these sins, and he answered in the affirmative and agreed that such a life was possible.

People who think they cannot live free from sin are really mistaken as to what sin is. If they class lack of knowledge, temptations, and common mistakes in life that do not break the law of God as sin, then they are right that no man lives free from sin. But if they think one cannot live free from the above mentioned sins that will damn the soul, then they are all wrong, for such must be true of anyone who will be saved. Men who argue that no person can live without sin are simply using every excuse under the sun to continue in sin. They want to make people believe that they are Christians and yet they want to indulge in some sin or bad habit that will condemn them in the end. Men can live free from sin if they get saved from sin and permit Christ to live in their lives by the power of the Holy Spirit. If men live in sin daily then there is not a day in which they are not tinder the condemnation of a broken law and they will be sent to Hell to pay the death penalty for sin.

IS THE BODY SINFUL AND THE SOUL AND SPIRIT HOLY?

The theory that the body is always sinful and the flesh sins every day, but the soul and spirit are perfectly sinless and holy is one of the most foolish, ignorant, and unscriptural theories the devil and his agents are seeking to impose upon intelligent Bible loving people. There can be no Scripture produced that says any such thing. This is purely a doctrine of demons to deceive men and cause their souls to be lost in eternal Hell. The following Scriptures prove that the body must be holy and sinless as much as the soul.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DESTROYED, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead [that is, dead to sin as in Rom. 6:2] is freed from sin" (Rom. 6:6-7); "If Christ be in you, THE BODY IS DEAD BECAUSE OF SIN; but the Spirit [Holy Spirit] is life because of righteousness. . . Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, NOT TO THE FLESH, TO LIVE AFTER THE FLESH. FOR IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:1-4,10,Rom 12-13); "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE UNTO GOD, which is your reasonable service. AND BE NOT CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD: BUT BE YE TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind, that ye might prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Rom. 12:1-2); "THE BODY IS NOT FOR FORNICATION, BUT FOR THE LORD; and the Lord for THE BODY. - . Know ye not that YOUR BODIES are the members of Christ. . . Every sin that a man doeth IS WITHOUT THE BODY. . . YOUR BODY is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? . . . Therefore glorify God in YOUR BODY, and in YOUR SPIRIT, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:13,15,19-20); "Know ye not that ye' [YOUR BODIES] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwell in you? If any man defile THE TEMPLE OF GOD, him shall God destroy; for THE TEMPLE OF GOD IS HOLY, which temple ye are" (1 Cor. 3:16-17); "But I keep under MY BODY, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor. 9:27); "That the life also of Jesus might be manifest IN OUR BODY" (2 Cor. 4:10); "Christ shall be magnified IN MY BODY, whether with the circumcision made without hands, IN PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF SINS OF THE FLESH . . . having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col. 2:11-13); "that she may be holy BOTH IN BODY AND IN SPIRIT" (1 Cor. 7:34).

 

[watchman F]

Mt. 5:48 (IN VIEW OF WHAT HAD JUST BEEN TAUGHT) [perfect] Greek: teleios (GSN-<G5046>), complete in conformity to God's laws.

What a Christian Must Be:
1. Broken in spirit, burdened for others, meek, humble, hungry for righteousness, merciful, pure in heart, wise, patient, loving, joyful, and gracious (Mt. 5:3-12)
2. Salt to preserve and a light to shine (Mt. 5:13-16)
3. A teacher and keeper of the truth (Mt. 5:17-19)
4. Free from hypocrisy, selfishness, and grudges (Mt. 5:20-24)
5. A peacemaker (Mt. 5:9,25-26)
6. Free from lusts (Mt. 5:27-30)
7. A family man (Mt. 5:31-32)
8. Truthful (Mt. 5:31-37)
9. Nonresistant to mistreatment (Mt. 5:38-41)
10. Charitable, neighborly, and God-like in society (Mt. 5:38-47)

All This Is Possible Through:
1. The new birth (2Cor. 5:17; 1Jn. 2:29; 3:5-10; 5:1-4,18)
2. Walking and living in the Spirit (Rom. 8:1-13; Gal. 5:16-26)
3. Proper use of Christian weapons (2Cor. 10:5-7; Eph. 6:10-18; Col. 2:6-10; 3:3-10; 2Tim. 2:21)

Excellent post, the truth is here, God is good.

 

[jasoncran]

so, when one is sinless then, when one sins by anger then that potential to sin isnt gone. did jesus ever actually have to fight really that hard not to sin?

jesus in his nature being GOD, have no potential to sin in him for if he did then god can and has thoughts of sinning.

the flesh wrapping around made Jesus see how we are tempted but being free from sin he had a choice and the will power to say no.

we sin all to easily, did the lord ever go opps. nothing caught him off guard. are we like that on this earth.

 

[XTruth]

so, when one is sinless then, when one sins by anger then that potential to sin isnt gone. did jesus ever actually have to fight really that hard not to sin?

jesus in his nature being GOD, have no potential to sin in him for if he did then god can and has thoughts of sinning.

the flesh wrapping around made Jesus see how we are tempted but being free from sin he had a choice and the will power to say no.

we sin all to easily, did the lord ever go opps. nothing caught him off guard. are we like that on this earth.

I don't see any scripture refuting all the clear scriptures given. I also don't see any scripture based on anything you just said. How can we build a belief around what you said?

 

[jasoncran]

first lets define what jesus is,

son of god, the very word of god.god himself.

john 1:1, 14.18.

then theres the word we call tempted in matthew better translated as tested. mathew 4:1

unto the perfect nature of christ hebrews 8:26-28.

now then would you say that God in heaven when he isnt able feel anger, love and so forth?
and sin not.
if so why or why not. and did christ when he came to the earth loose that nature.?
if he didnt then my point is most logical and sound as he wasnt able to lured as he is perfect from birth and was the christ born in sin? if so then he cant be the redeemer.


when you claim that level of perfection to me a pentacostal, that means that you have the full nature of god in you and cant sin. if i strike you do you have to fight the tendency to punch back. christ didnt as he is GOD. he know that he came to die and be abused and so on.

 

[jasoncran]

i wonder if you believe in the trinity as that is derived from many verses not just a verse with that name on it.

expositions of verses doenst meant that we have to quote a verse on every little idea or issue.

ie abortion( a close example is given but not the modern means)
gay rights(the modern idea and its many tons of deviations arent in the bible, but the verse porneon covers any perverse sexual activity.)
the idea of when we should not go to war, or go to war(agustine just war doctrines)
voting and also serving in the govt.

these are questions that are answered by looking for principles to call them sin or to guidance on certain matters.

 

[jasoncran]

on the word tempt.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3985

are we tested or tempted(the english connoation) to sin by the devil?

 

[XTruth]

TO Jason,

You are bringing up hard to know theologies.... Was it possible for Jesus to sin? I could respond to that, but that is not relevant to the clear scriptures that specifically tell us, Christians, to be perfect, sinless, blameless, faultless, pure, holy, righteous, innocent, clean, unblemished, etc. Some things are clear and not to be made so complicated. I live by the Word and all the ideas it relates. I conform my thinking to Scripture, not the other way around. Why do you have a hard time with the clear scriptures by insisting on basing your beliefs upon human reasoning? I have so many clear Scriptures on this, yet I know I only have a fraction. Would it help you to read them? If so, I will post them for you. The Word is the only way to conform your mind anyway, not my writings...