Perfection?

[watchman F]

he didnt die being without sin then, so he and the others still werent perfect, you are in counfusion santification.

If he was truly repentant the he was without sin as Jesus forgave his sin and cleansed him from all unrighteousness

you claimed being totally sinless. then you now say that we can reach a certain level of sinless.

Right at the moment I am indeed sinless.

btw none of the santification process is the salvinic process, but rather evidenece of it. theres no such thing as being mored saved. the apostle james was the first to die. was he more saved then paul? or less?

Sanctification is both immediate and a process, were we mature into a perfect man

yet the names of all the apostles are written on the foundation of the city of new jerusalem. same reward.

All who endure will receive their reward whether they were perfectly sanctified or not. As for me i am believing god for the fullness of His provision.

 

[jasoncran]

really sinless, so tommorow you can say not sin, or have no potential to sin.
did you sin this morning? and had to repent. or just now.
no man if they are honest hasnt sinned each day.

btw so if the father came to see you now would you live? after all you are perfected.

 

[Pard]

Watchman,

You are falling into the same trap that many new to the faith fall into. You are taking God's demand for our perfection and sinless state and trying to apply it in your sinful and imperfect time frame. God works in His own time, and not our own. The Bible says many things are to come and will be given to us and will happen for us, but in God's time and not ours. God's time extends beyond the sinful, imperfect, and mortal bodies we now reside in.

You must reject the secular time-frame you are walking in lock-step with and embrace the time-frame of the Lord! In due time we will be perfect, but this time will not be till the have cast your sinful, imperfect, and mortal body behind you.

Be wary of the perfection doctrine. It is an unattainable, man-made doctrine. It leads down a frightful road to the devil.

Jesus came for the sinners, the imperfect, not for the sinless. When you claim perfection you cast aside the need of your Lord and Savior.

We sin at all times. Even the thought of sinning is itself sinful. To claim perfection or the ability to become perfect is like claiming to be Christ, Himself! Watch yourself, lest you embark on a blasphemous path.

 

[watchman F]

We sin at all times. Even the thought of sinning is itself sinful. To claim perfection or the ability to become perfect is like claiming to be Christ, Himself! Watch yourself, lest you embark on a blasphemous path.

It is not blasphemous to claim to be Christ. After all isn;t that the goal to be so dead to yourself that it is Christ that lives and not us?

Was Paul blaspheming when he said this?????
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:....

If Jesus lived sinless in His flesh, He can also live sinlessly in mine.

 

[watchman F]

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

So what are we saved from?
Well ultimately we are saved from Hell, but here and now we have been saved from self (or our flesh), and sin as Paul shows us when explaining how with in His own flesh He could not even serve God but that God had delivered Him from His flesh.
Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with my mind I serve the law of God; but with my flesh the law of sin.
Paul could not in his flesh keep God's law.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Yet he goes on in the very next chapter to explain, that we cannot continue to allow our flesh to led us but through the Spirit we can keep God's law.
Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through our flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
We cannot in our flesh keep God's law, but Jesus has delivered us from our flesh that we might walk in the Spirit enabling us to fulfill God's holy law.

James says we are tempted by our own lust, but Jesus has saved us from our flesh
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.

He has also saved us from sin. Paul write that those who sin are servant of sin, not of Christ.
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 know you not ,that whom you yield yourselves servant to obey, his servant you are whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?

So if we sin then we are not free but still bound, but Jesus came to free us.
John 8
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Romans 6: 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life
Whoever sins is a servant of sin, but Jesus came to free us, and if we are truly free indeed then we would live no longer in sin.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
If this was true and we are dead to self and sin, and it is Christ who live in us then we would indeed live a sin free life.

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus, in His great Sermon on the Mount, showed how easily it was to sin and not even know it is considered sin in the eyes of the Lord. Jesus just scratched the surface of sin in that Sermon. :help

Watchman, are you sinless?

It is not blasphemous to claim to be Christ.

It most certainly is! :crazy

After all isn;t that the goal to be so dead to yourself that it is Christ that lives and not us?

Was Paul blaspheming when he said this?????
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:....

If Jesus lived sinless in His flesh, He can also live sinlessly in mine.

Claiming to be Christ and laying claim that Christ lives in you are Not the same. You are really painting yourself into a corner here.

What is with all these off color beliefs lately? Are you attempting to convince us or yourself?

So what are we saved from?

Simple, the penalty imposed on Man by God for sin.

 

[Pard]

Yes, it is most definitely blasphemous to claim the divinity of our Lord and Savior! In fact, this perfection doctrine is in itself sinful, for you claim to attain something that is only attained by God, Himself!

And what are we saved from? We are saved from the judgment and penalty of the Law. We are saved from Hell. From eternal damnation.

 

[seekandlisten]

We can become sinless, and we will become perfect through the Lord Jesus... just not until we are raised from these sinful bodies

According to scripture God is able to perfect us here in this life time.

Interesting. For once I kind of agree with you watchman. I think to become perfect as the Bible describes it one must also apply Christ's teaching of 'deny oneself'. The concept lies in the teaching that we can't be perfect but if we 'deny ourselves' and become open to correction, 'God' then can perfect us. Buddha taught that "There is self and there is truth. Where self is, truth is not. Where truth is, self is not."

One must also remain in a state of humility to present this concept, as opposed to claiming to be perfect. I think it fall along the lines of the statement by Kena Upanishad when he said, "Brahman is unknown to those who know It, and is known to those who do not know It at all."

cheers

 

[watchman F]

Yes, it is most definitely blasphemous to claim the divinity of our Lord and Savior! In fact, this perfection doctrine is in itself sinful, for you claim to attain something that is only attained by God, Himself!

I do not claim to be divine, but the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead has quickened my mortal body, and enables me to do all He did including remaining sinless. You claim the perfection doctrine is sin. I say anything outside of the perfection doctrine is sin as it make an idol of your flesh. the only reason God could not perfect someone is if their flesh is stronger than He.

And what are we saved from? We are saved from the judgment and penalty of the Law. We are saved from Hell. From eternal damnation.

We have been freed from the bondage of sin, so that we need not live any longer there in.

 

[Pard]

We have been freed from the bondage of sin, so that we need not live any longer there in.

Right you are!

Once we die and go to Heaven, assuming we are saved in Christ Jesus, we are removed from the bondage of sin and are born anew. And then we are given white robes and are permitted to pray at the foot of God's mighty throne!

 

[watchman F]

We have been freed from the bondage of sin, so that we need not live any longer there in.

Right you are!

Once we die and go to Heaven, assuming we are saved in Christ Jesus, we are removed from the bondage of sin and are born anew. And then we are given white robes and are permitted to pray at the foot of God's mighty throne!

Yet if we continue to yield ourselves to sin then we are servants of sin, and not of God.

 

[watchman F]

Jesus, in His great Sermon on the Mount, showed how easily it was to sin and not even know it is considered sin in the eyes of the Lord. Jesus just scratched the surface of sin in that Sermon.

Every sinful thought is not sin, nor did Jesus say it was. A sinful thought is temptation, once that though becomes an intent it is sin even if you haven't yet acted on it.

Watchman, are you sinless?

Yes I am, and if I were to sin tomorrow I would repent and once again be sinless.

[quote:3jkhz4p7]It is not blasphemous to claim to be Christ.

It most certainly is! :crazy [/quote:3jkhz4p7]I am one with Christ. it is Christ in me that is able to live sinlessly

[quote:3jkhz4p7]After all isn;t that the goal to be so dead to yourself that it is Christ that lives and not us?

Was Paul blaspheming when he said this?????
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:....

If Jesus lived sinless in His flesh, He can also live sinlessly in mine.

Claiming to be Christ and laying claim that Christ lives in you are Not the same. You are really painting yourself into a corner here.
[/quote:3jkhz4p7]Not at all

What is with all these off color beliefs lately? Are you attempting to convince us or yourself?

Believing that Jesus has freed us from sin is an off color belief...wow!!!! what has happen to christianity

[quote:3jkhz4p7]So what are we saved from?

Simple, the penalty imposed on Man by God for sin.[/quote:3jkhz4p7]scripture says we are freed from sin itself.

 

[jasoncran]

so name one sinful thought isnt a sin?

 

[Pard]

http://www.compassdistributors.ca/topics/sinless.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/doct49.htm
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html

Start there, WM. I hope you will learn your mistakes. You are a nice guy, and I'd hate to see you led down the road of such man-made doctrines.

 

[watchman F]

so name one sinful thought isnt a sin?

No sinful thought is sin, it is when we dwell on it, and want to do it and would do it if given the opportunity that it becomes sin. A sinful thought is temptation. Temptation does not = sin

 

[watchman F]

http://www.compassdistributors.ca/topics/sinless.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/doct49.htm
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html

Start there, WM. I hope you will learn your mistakes. You are a nice guy, and I'd hate to see you led down the road of such man-made doctrines.

I learn from scripture and the Holy Spirit, not sinful people that idolize their flesh.

 

[jasoncran]

so name one sinful thought isnt a sin?

No sinful thought is sin, it is when we dwell on it, and want to do it and would do it if given the opportunity that it becomes sin. A sinful thought is temptation. Temptation does not = sin

so i former bi can look at man and think of sex with that man, and that aint sin to you?

 

[watchman F]

so name one sinful thought isnt a sin?

No sinful thought is sin, it is when we dwell on it, and want to do it and would do it if given the opportunity that it becomes sin. A sinful thought is temptation. Temptation does not = sin

so i former bi can look at man and think of sex with that man, and that aint sin to you?

Depends, if a thought flashing into your mind and you immediately take that though into captivity, then no it is not sin. However if you dwell on that thought until you want to have sex with said man, then yes that would be sin even if you never act on it.

 

[Pard]

It is such an interesting thing to note that this perfection doctrine has only come about after English translations of the Bible came about. Why is this? I'll tell you why. In Greek, the word used that is so often translated to "perfect" means many things besides this. In fact, the better translation is "mature" or "full-grown" or "complete". The Greek word is "teleios", and it is interesting to note that while "teleios" can be loosely translated to "perfect" there is a word that only means "perfect" and it was in use at the time. Now, I'd love to tell you that word, but I don't speak Greek, my cousin does, and he told me about this because we like to talk about crazy doctrines, like the perfectionist one.

As you will see, when you use the proper translation of either "mature" or "full-grown" in place of "perfection" not only does it make sense, it truly brings the Bible into an even greater and deeper context.

I see your folly may very well be in such a small thing as translation. You ought to own many Bible translations (or learn Hebrew and Greek) and own, at the very least, Strong's Hebrew&Greek.

 

[Neo]

I completely agree with you Pard. There are many words that are misinterpretated in the bible. Say for instance "virgin". I do not have my notes in front of me so I do not remember what was used, but the literal translation for the greek word is "a young maiden". There is a word for virgin that only means virgin but it is not used.

The notion of perfection is more implied through that of maturity and spiritual growth. It does not mean that we can never do any thing wrong because that would be impossible. There is even evidence in the bible that Jesus sinned. Read the NT all the way through without blinders on and you will find it (like I said I do not have my notes ) It never implies that you should never do anything wrong. It merely states that you should seek out forgiveness for those transactions to attain salvation. Wrongdoing will happen whether you mean it to or not. It is not the work of the "devil" but rather human nature. We have instincts which go against our own societal doctrines. We feel guilty for things that would be considered necessary if we were still hunter gatherers. Shedding that guilt and negative feelings is the path towards salvation, not necessarily being perfect.