Poll re. good tattoo artist career for a Christian woman

[farouk]

This would definitely mean that we shouldn't do anything on or with our bodies that would dishonor God.

Our body is God's temple, according to Scripture. Would writing on a temple wall be wrong, if the intent is to honor God? Should we perhaps examine OT practices to do with the temple in order to see what is and is not permissible to do with our bodies?

@questdriven :

Thanks for your constructive comments.

We know of course that there is a dispensational distinction between the Old Testament (and Millennial?) temple and the simple gathering places of New Testament believers; but a lot of church buildings where a simple Biblical gospel is preached would not unusually have Gospel texts displayed on the walls, right?

Do you see a Old Testament temple-related argument that overrides and prohibits any New Testament believer from choosing to have say a Bible ref. on a wrist, etc., for conversation starting, God honoring witness purposes?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

This would definitely mean that we shouldn't do anything on or with our bodies that would dishonor God.

Our body is God's temple, according to Scripture. Would writing on a temple wall be wrong, if the intent is to honor God? Should we perhaps examine OT practices to do with the temple in order to see what is and is not permissible to do with our bodies?

@questdriven :

Thanks for your constructive comments.

We know of course that there is a dispensational distinction between the Old Testament (and Millennial?) temple and the simple gathering places of New Testament believers; but a lot of church buildings where a simple Biblical gospel is preached would not unusually have Gospel texts displayed on the walls, right?

Do you see a Old Testament temple-related argument that overrides and prohibits any New Testament believer from choosing to have say a Bible ref. on a wrist, etc., for conversation starting, God honoring witness purposes?

Blessings.

It's just a thought that occurred to me. Whether it should be based on OT temple design or not I guess would depend on what the NT says, and we might inquire of the purposes that the OT temple designs used.
If we base it entirely on the NT church, well, that could change things. I don't think the NT says about specifically about church design.
There are often posters on the church walls, sometimes stained glass windows; and in my church, a giant wooden fish symbol with Greek writing inside it.

At the Bible study I attend, there are paintings directly on the wall. There used to be some paper over one wall with art drawn by the youth that attended there, but that was taken down recently and the new paintings were put up.

 

[farouk]

This would definitely mean that we shouldn't do anything on or with our bodies that would dishonor God.

Our body is God's temple, according to Scripture. Would writing on a temple wall be wrong, if the intent is to honor God? Should we perhaps examine OT practices to do with the temple in order to see what is and is not permissible to do with our bodies?

@questdriven :

Thanks for your constructive comments.

We know of course that there is a dispensational distinction between the Old Testament (and Millennial?) temple and the simple gathering places of New Testament believers; but a lot of church buildings where a simple Biblical gospel is preached would not unusually have Gospel texts displayed on the walls, right?

Do you see a Old Testament temple-related argument that overrides and prohibits any New Testament believer from choosing to have say a Bible ref. on a wrist, etc., for conversation starting, God honoring witness purposes?

Blessings.

It's just a thought that occurred to me. Whether it should be based on OT temple design or not I guess would depend on what the NT says, and we might inquire of the purposes that the OT temple designs used.
If we base it entirely on the NT church, well, that could change things. I don't think the NT says about specifically about church design.
There are often posters on the church walls, sometimes stained glass windows; and in my church, a giant wooden fish symbol with Greek writing inside it.

At the Bible study I attend, there are paintings directly on the wall. There used to be some paper over one wall with art drawn by the youth that attended there, but that was taken down recently and the new paintings were put up.

questdriven:

Well, this is interesting.

I do wonder in the light of Acts 7.48, etc., whether the whole temple argument, in relation to the Old Testament temple, shows a case of apples and oranges. There are more indirect analogies, I guess. Now fornication, on the other hand, would indeed defile the body as the temple of God.

But in terms of a witness motivation behind a faith based tattoo (you mentioned a fish sign, for example) I do wonder seriously if the defilement argument can really hold water? do you?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

This would definitely mean that we shouldn't do anything on or with our bodies that would dishonor God.

Our body is God's temple, according to Scripture. Would writing on a temple wall be wrong, if the intent is to honor God? Should we perhaps examine OT practices to do with the temple in order to see what is and is not permissible to do with our bodies?

@questdriven :

Thanks for your constructive comments.

We know of course that there is a dispensational distinction between the Old Testament (and Millennial?) temple and the simple gathering places of New Testament believers; but a lot of church buildings where a simple Biblical gospel is preached would not unusually have Gospel texts displayed on the walls, right?

Do you see a Old Testament temple-related argument that overrides and prohibits any New Testament believer from choosing to have say a Bible ref. on a wrist, etc., for conversation starting, God honoring witness purposes?

Blessings.

It's just a thought that occurred to me. Whether it should be based on OT temple design or not I guess would depend on what the NT says, and we might inquire of the purposes that the OT temple designs used.
If we base it entirely on the NT church, well, that could change things. I don't think the NT says about specifically about church design.
There are often posters on the church walls, sometimes stained glass windows; and in my church, a giant wooden fish symbol with Greek writing inside it.

At the Bible study I attend, there are paintings directly on the wall. There used to be some paper over one wall with art drawn by the youth that attended there, but that was taken down recently and the new paintings were put up.

questdriven:

Well, this is interesting.

I do wonder in the light of Acts 7.48, etc., whether the whole temple argument, in relation to the Old Testament temple, shows a case of apples and oranges. There are more indirect analogies, I guess. Now fornication, on the other hand, would indeed defile the body as the temple of God.

But in terms of a witness motivation behind a faith based tattoo (you mentioned a fish sign, for example) I do wonder seriously if the defilement argument can really hold water? do you?

Blessings.

Probably not.

 

[farouk]

questdriven:

Well, this is interesting.

I do wonder in the light of Acts 7.48, etc., whether the whole temple argument, in relation to the Old Testament temple, shows a case of apples and oranges. There are more indirect analogies, I guess. Now fornication, on the other hand, would indeed defile the body as the temple of God.

But in terms of a witness motivation behind a faith based tattoo (you mentioned a fish sign, for example) I do wonder seriously if the defilement argument can really hold water? do you?

Blessings.

Probably not.

questdriven:

This is what I was thinking, too.

In fact, @Abbiedobis , above, made the point that it substantially relates to motive for getting faith a based design tattooed. This also is generally what I was thinking, too.

Because

><>

on a wrist or ankle, for example, might well be obtained for the highest of witness motives, don't you think? I think so anyway.

Blessings.

PS: I'm not saying this is what ppl should go do, mind, but more thinking in terms of motivational frameworks that are hard to criticize, expecially when it comes to Christians' exercise of individual liberty as per Romans 14, etc.

 

[evenifigoalone]

questdriven:

Well, this is interesting.

I do wonder in the light of Acts 7.48, etc., whether the whole temple argument, in relation to the Old Testament temple, shows a case of apples and oranges. There are more indirect analogies, I guess. Now fornication, on the other hand, would indeed defile the body as the temple of God.

But in terms of a witness motivation behind a faith based tattoo (you mentioned a fish sign, for example) I do wonder seriously if the defilement argument can really hold water? do you?

Blessings.

Probably not.

questdriven:

This is what I was thinking, too.

In fact, @Abbiedobis , above, made the point that it substantially relates to motive for getting faith a based design tattooed. This also is generally what I was thinking, too.

Because

><>

on a wrist or ankle, for example, might well be obtained for the highest of witness motives, don't you think? I think so anyway.

Blessings.

PS: I'm not saying this is what ppl should go do, mind, but more thinking in terms of motivational frameworks that are hard to criticize, expecially when it comes to Christians' exercise of individual liberty as per Romans 14, etc.

Well, yes.
Since the NT says nothing about it directly, it's very debatable and therefore probably not important.

 

[George Muller]

I had a young friend who ask my advice on this issue a few months ago? I told him that if he was getting the tattoo to be like those who were in the world, that he was most likely not in Gods will? Of course he got the tattoo and tried to make it ok in his own conscience by some scriptures etc.. in the image. I know the Lord is not upset with him, nor am i, but it does very much show a desire on his part to be accepted "cool" by others that are under a worldly standard. I think also the issue of a believer needing to make an outward show of their faith, proves a lack of understanding about what it means to be a "living epistle" of Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

@Deborah13 :

PS: In some states 18 is the norm. In others, it's allowed with parental permission for teens under 18s. I guess I don't have a strong view on the age limit. (I suppose you do?)

Blessings.

Sorry farouk, I missed this post earlier. No, I agree that under 18 should be only with parental permission but other than that it really isn't my business.

 

[farouk]

I had a young friend who ask my advice on this issue a few months ago? I told him that if he was getting the tattoo to be like those who were in the world, that he was most likely not in Gods will? Of course he got the tattoo and tried to make it ok in his own conscience by some scriptures etc.. in the image. I know the Lord is not upset with him, nor am i, but it does very much show a desire on his part to be accepted "cool" by others that are under a worldly standard. I think also the issue of a believer needing to make an outward show of their faith, proves a lack of understanding about what it means to be a "living epistle" of Christ.

GM:

Well for all I know there may be wrong motives in some cases, yes.

But since it is well known (as stated by a poster, above) that they are proven, effective conversation starters (Bible ref. on a wrist, etc.), I think it can be also said that some people may well feel they have the best of motives, too.

I hope this makes sense?

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

@Deborah13 :

PS: In some states 18 is the norm. In others, it's allowed with parental permission for teens under 18s. I guess I don't have a strong view on the age limit. (I suppose you do?)

Blessings.

Sorry farouk, I missed this post earlier. No, I agree that under 18 should be only with parental permission but other than that it really isn't my business.

Deborah13:

Yes, I would instinctively stake a lot on parental discretion, for under 18s.

What I would also say is that if a parent thinks it's at all possible or likely that the young person will want to get a tattoo at 18, it is sensible to get them thinking about it well before the age of 18.

For example, people often sensibly say that, if you want a particular tattoo design that isn't likely to be regretted years hence, then you should probably want it for a year before you actually go under the needle. Far too many young people get them on a whim, and then regret them.

(This, incidentally, is why older women can be very suitable in the role of tattooists, because they can combine a basic empathy for the wish to get a tattoo with a gentle, restraining wisdom borne of years of dealing with young people, often, and the whims that sometimes motivate them.)

I actually think, therefore, that to start to talk to a 15- or 16- year old about tattoo plans may actually be a rather moderating and conservative thing to do. (Irrespective of whether the mom or dad actually has tattoos of his or her own.) And obviously Christian parents with faith based tattoos are likely to be thrilled if their son or daughter also wants a faith based design, too.

Obviously it varies from one state to another but in some states respect for parental discretion seems to drive the regulations about tattooing young people (rather than being driven by whether tattooists' lawyers fear that they will face lawsuits for under 18s).

I think @Kaileymarie , above, indicated her mom thought she was mature enough to go for first ink at 16. In which case this was, and ought to be, entirely between mom and daughter.

(I guess I'm bloviating a bit now, but I hope this makes some sense.)

Blessings.

 

[George Muller]

I had a young friend who ask my advice on this issue a few months ago? I told him that if he was getting the tattoo to be like those who were in the world, that he was most likely not in Gods will? Of course he got the tattoo and tried to make it ok in his own conscience by some scriptures etc.. in the image. I know the Lord is not upset with him, nor am i, but it does very much show a desire on his part to be accepted "cool" by others that are under a worldly standard. I think also the issue of a believer needing to make an outward show of their faith, proves a lack of understanding about what it means to be a "living epistle" of Christ.

GM:

Well for all I know there may be wrong motives in some cases, yes.

But since it is well known (as stated by a poster, above) that they are proven, effective conversation starters (Bible ref. on a wrist, etc.), I think it can be also said that some people may well feel they have the best of motives, too.

I hope this makes sense?

Blessings.

I would leave such things to the conscience of each believer, but I do believe that if sincere prayer was made by those who seek such things, many would see that they are seeking that which is of the world.

 

[George Muller]

I know those vs don't speak about tattoo's as neither do many other numerous Bible vs speak directly about many of our modern day situations. They do point too however, no in fact teach us, the fact that our bodies are not ours, but Gods. True?
Are our bodies ours, or Gods? Do those verses teach us directly that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit of God?

I would agree in general terms with this post.

 

[Free Christian]

Where does the practice of getting tattoo's come from. Godly, Christ and Holy Spirit believing cultures? We are told also not to practice the things, ungodly practices, of pagan cultures also. I would urge young Christian people here to do their homework as to the origin of tattoo's too see for themselves just what type of ungodly cultures they originated from and then to ask themselves if the Bible, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit would really be in approval of such things whether past or present?

 

[farouk]

Where does the practice of getting tattoo's come from. Godly, Christ and Holy Spirit believing cultures? We are told also not to practice the things, ungodly practices, of pagan cultures also. I would urge young Christian people here to do their homework as to the origin of tattoo's too see for themselves just what type of ungodly cultures they originated from and then to ask themselves if the Bible, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit would really be in approval of such things whether past or present?

Free Christian:

Ty for your comments. I agree in general terms about keeping overtly pagan things at a distance, certainly. But if the thing in question is inherently about witness and opening conversations, and is done with the desire to honor the Lord, at the very least, Christian liberty of conscience should apply to the individual, would be my suggestion.

You refer to origins. If we went back to origins for everything in case they are dubious, even if it's something done to honor God, we would find it hard to do anything, frankly. Just some examples: if we say the Bible study is Thursday, the day is etymologically linked to the pagan god Thor; but this shouldn't stop us announcing the Bible study for Thursday. Our forefathers (foremothers?) in Victorian times might have been shocked to think that many women in church wear hemlines on or slightly above the knee, but the fact is that it's okay to do this now. If in 1965 a woman aged, say, 32 had an above the knee skirt, it wouldn't have been unusual then, and even if there might have been some older Christians who might have questioned it in their minds, the fact is that now the same woman would be aged 80. These are just examples from various directions which would kind of suggest that we can't be too absolute in legislating about cultural things.

Especially so if the person's whole motivation is to honor God in witness (see for example @Abbiedobis 's comments, above, about her longstanding wish to be tattooed for witness conversation reasons).

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

I don't think it's a sin at all. I think what matters is placement. If your getting a naked girl, or a something on your boob that will draw attention to that area, well that is a different story. I've always wanted to get a cross. To open up conversations about God. Also, to understand WHY you want it is also something to think about.

@Abbiedobis : Didn't reply yet to your post, sorry.

Yes, it's all about the motive WHY, like you said. Presumably Christians will respect your longstanding wish to do it, like you say, 'to open up conversations about God' in witness.

And yes, placement matters, too. People have different ideas about where a suitable witness design might be placed; but various ones would work effectively. In some circumstances people opt to have them at placements than can be covered for some places of work, for instance. There are anyway, Abbie, various quietly satisfying placements that are perfectly decent for Christian men and women to have their witness designs needled in, to do it as a step of faith trusting that they will open up testimony opportunities.

I hope this all sounds sensible?

Blessings.

 

[Kaileymarie]

Where does the practice of getting tattoo's come from. Godly, Christ and Holy Spirit believing cultures? We are told also not to practice the things, ungodly practices, of pagan cultures also. I would urge young Christian people here to do their homework as to the origin of tattoo's too see for themselves just what type of ungodly cultures they originated from and then to ask themselves if the Bible, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit would really be in approval of such things whether past or present?

I understand where you're coming from with this. At the same time, the reason you're getting the tattoo is what really matters. I've done my own research, actually.. And while tattooing was practiced by pagans and criminals and the like, it was also practiced by many many Christians.

The "ice man", which is the oldest body ever found and is from somewhere between 3000-5000 bc, had 57 tattoos. They are even thought to have maybe been used medicinally somehow.

Just because a pope banned ALL tattoos 1500 years ago doesn't mean much to me. I'm not catholic. Moses is believed to have been all for tattoos, but not the pagan kind of course.

Christians have used them to show the giving of their lives to Christ, just as a slave was tattooed by their master for the same reason. Tattoos were used to inform others that they would like a Christian burial. Etc.

Ear piercing was used by the same cultures that used tattoos, and they were used to show how wealthy a family was.. The more piercings, the more wealthy you were. Some cultures thought spirits and demons entered through the ears, and earrings were worn to keep them away. Mostly though they were used as a sign of luxury and high status. How many Christian women and little girls do you know with this "body modification"?

Now, let me just remind you, although I'm sure you know this one .......

"I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works." 1Tim 2:8-10

Now I don't know at all your opinions on this verse and how it should be applied, if at all, to our current times. But it seems if you can stretch the verse about your body being a temple (which seems to be talking about sexual immortality anyway, unless you have one of the newer versions which has had the actual word tattoo added to it) and therefor it should not be tattooed, then you should probably feel that a verse as clear and direct as 1Tim 2:8 need be applied as well.

Sure I have tattoos, but we don't buy clothes or shoes unless we need to. We ask for those things we need as gifts for birthdays and christmas. We don't buy or wear jewelry, except for our plain old wedding bands. I don't even wear earrings in any of the 8 holes I've had in my ears. I wear my hair up almost all of the time and rarely wear makeup. When I do it's tinted moisturizer, powder and mascara.

I do this because I feel like when I start caring about what I'm wearing and if my face is a little shiny and if my hair looks good today, it leaves that much less room in my thoughts for god and leads me to other things like, jealousy and envy. I dont want to care what other people think about my appearance, so i dont even get involved. And this is just me, I'm not saying everyone has this reaction, nor do I think if in your heart you honestly believe its okay to wear jewels and fix up your hair every day that you are wrong to do so.

I have two points here.

Everyone is different. We all know the verse that speaks about if something feels wrong to someone else but in your heart you really honestly feel it's okay for you, then it is. The older versions of the bible say nothing directly about not tattooing yourself. But if YOU feel it's not okay, don't tattoo. It doesn't seem fair though for you to imply to someone, say a young man who wants a cross tattoo, that god doesn't like it, and put guilt in his heart because of how you have interpreted a verse that says nothing about tattoos in the first place.

The point is that Christian tattoos were perfectly acceptable by the majority until the pope "banned" them in I believe the 600's, maybe the 400's.

 

[farouk]

Where does the practice of getting tattoo's come from. Godly, Christ and Holy Spirit believing cultures? We are told also not to practice the things, ungodly practices, of pagan cultures also. I would urge young Christian people here to do their homework as to the origin of tattoo's too see for themselves just what type of ungodly cultures they originated from and then to ask themselves if the Bible, God, Christ and the Holy Spirit would really be in approval of such things whether past or present?

I understand where you're coming from with this. At the same time, the reason you're getting the tattoo is what really matters. I've done my own research, actually.. And while tattooing was practiced by pagans and criminals and the like, it was also practiced by many many Christians.

The "ice man", which is the oldest body ever found and is from somewhere between 3000-5000 bc, had 57 tattoos. They are even thought to have maybe been used medicinally somehow.

Just because a pope banned ALL tattoos 1500 years ago doesn't mean much to me. I'm not catholic. Moses is believed to have been all for tattoos, but not the pagan kind of course.

Christians have used them to show the giving of their lives to Christ, just as a slave was tattooed by their master for the same reason. Tattoos were used to inform others that they would like a Christian burial. Etc.

Ear piercing was used by the same cultures that used tattoos, and they were used to show how wealthy a family was.. The more piercings, the more wealthy you were. Some cultures thought spirits and demons entered through the ears, and earrings were worn to keep them away. Mostly though they were used as a sign of luxury and high status. How many Christian women and little girls do you know with this "body modification"?

Now, let me just remind you, although I'm sure you know this one .......

"I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works." 1Tim 2:8-10

Now I don't know at all your opinions on this verse and how it should be applied, if at all, to our current times. But it seems if you can stretch the verse about your body being a temple (which seems to be talking about sexual immortality anyway, unless you have one of the newer versions which has had the actual word tattoo added to it) and therefor it should not be tattooed, then you should probably feel that a verse as clear and direct as 1Tim 2:8 need be applied as well.

Sure I have tattoos, but we don't buy clothes or shoes unless we need to. We ask for those things we need as gifts for birthdays and christmas. We don't buy or wear jewelry, except for our plain old wedding bands. I don't even wear earrings in any of the 8 holes I've had in my ears. I wear my hair up almost all of the time and rarely wear makeup. When I do it's tinted moisturizer, powder and mascara.

I do this because I feel like when I start caring about what I'm wearing and if my face is a little shiny and if my hair looks good today, it leaves that much less room in my thoughts for god and leads me to other things like, jealousy and envy. I dont want to care what other people think about my appearance, so i dont even get involved. And this is just me, I'm not saying everyone has this reaction, nor do I think if in your heart you honestly believe its okay to wear jewels and fix up your hair every day that you are wrong to do so.

I have two points here.

Everyone is different. We all know the verse that speaks about if something feels wrong to someone else but in your heart you really honestly feel it's okay for you, then it is. The older versions of the bible say nothing directly about not tattooing yourself. But if YOU feel it's not okay, don't tattoo. It doesn't seem fair though for you to imply to someone, say a young man who wants a cross tattoo, that god doesn't like it, and put guilt in his heart because of how you have interpreted a verse that says nothing about tattoos in the first place.

The point is that Christian tattoos were perfectly acceptable by the majority until the pope "banned" them in I believe the 600's, maybe the 400's.

[MENTION=93407]Kaileymarie[/MENTION] :

Well, this is a very thoughtful and reasoned and substantial contribution, ty. You must have spent quite some time thinking about it.

For what you said earlier, too, it's maybe not surprising then that at 16 your mom thought you were already mature enough to handle thoughtfully having it done, right?

Blessings.

 

[Kaileymarie]

I would also like to say that I got all of my tattoos before I was a Christian, and at first in church i wore my hair down to hide the butterfly on the back of my neck because I thought people would judge me and I would not be accepted. How sad is that? If I felt that way I'm sure there are many others who have and will feel the same.

Praise the Lord for freeing me from that weight I was carrying. Trust me at first I thought it was wrong of me to have gotten them, but over time He has shown me that they are so insignificant in the grand scheme of things and that as a lover of art I am tattooed and it is just fine. In the same prayer I realized the significance of having the skull and crossbones covered up with a butterfly.

I am a new creation in Christ and what matters is my relationship with him and loving others.

 

[Kaileymarie]

Well, this is a very thoughtful and reasoned and substantial contribution, ty. You must have spent quite some time thinking about it.

For what you said earlier, too, it's maybe not surprising then that at 16 your mom thought you were already mature enough to handle thoughtfully having it done, right?

Blessings.

I was a total hippy but I was all about love and peace and she knew that was a good thing!

 

[Kaileymarie]

Well, this is a very thoughtful and reasoned and substantial contribution, ty. You must have spent quite some time thinking about it.

For what you said earlier, too, it's maybe not surprising then that at 16 your mom thought you were already mature enough to handle thoughtfully having it done, right?

Blessings.

I was a total hippy but I was all about love and peace and she knew that was a good thing!

Hence letting me get the heart/peace sign combo.