Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-Tribulation?

[JLB]

The church has already been raptured so this has nothing to do with the church or rapture. Also, he doesn't send angels to gather the church, Jesus Himself comes for His church. Here, He sends His angels to gather His elect, the nation Israel,l to bring them back to their land.

The Resurrection comes just before [a moment, a twinkling of an eye] the Rapture, so NO, the Rapture has happened yet.

The Raptured ones will be caught up with the already Resurrected ones[/B], who go first, at His Coming.


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Together with them in the clouds...


JLB

Edited for bold and color...reba

 

[Ricko]

The Resurrection comes just before [a moment, a twinkling of an eye] the Rapture, so NO, the Rapture has happened yet.

The Raptured ones will be caught up with the already Resurrected ones[/B], who go first, at His Coming.


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Together with them in the clouds...


JLB

Edited for bold and color...reba

I thought we were discussing Mathew 24, but since you quoted 1 Thes 16-17 let's have a look. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. The dead in Christ first, then those who are alive will be caught up. Now compare to Matthew 24:31. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect.

These are separate events.

 

[JLB]

I thought we were discussing Mathew 24, but since you quoted 1 Thes 16-17 let's have a look. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout. The dead in Christ first, then those who are alive will be caught up. Now compare to Matthew 24:31. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect.

These are separate events.

Did you notice verse 17?

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

caught up together with them.

The Raptured ones will be caught up with the Resurrected ones.

The Rapture and Resurrection is one event and can not be separated from each other.

Matthew 24 states clearly that this event takes place after the tribulation.


JLB

 

[Ricko]

Did you notice verse 17?

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

caught up together with them.

The Raptured ones will be caught up with the Resurrected ones.

The Rapture and Resurrection is one event and can not be separated from each other.

Matthew 24 states clearly that this event takes place after the tribulation.


JLB

How does Mathew 24 have anything to do with 1 Thes 4:16-17. Those are two separate events as I already showed you. In 1 Thes 4:16-17, Christ comes alone to gather His church. In Mathew 24:31 Christ sends His angels to gather the elect. Very different. The rapture in 1 Thes 4:16-17 is prior to Mathew 24:31

 

[Kathi]

Did you notice verse 17?

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

caught up together with them.

The Raptured ones will be caught up with the Resurrected ones.

The Rapture and Resurrection is one event and can not be separated from each other.

Matthew 24 states clearly that this event takes place after the tribulation.


JLB

So when does this happen according to when the tribulation happens?

 

[JLB]

So when does this happen according to when the tribulation happens?

after that tribulation,



24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


... from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

All the saints in heaven and all the saints on earth will be Gathered together to meet the Lord in the air.

At His Coming!


JLB

 

[JLB]

How does Mathew 24 have anything to do with 1 Thes 4:16-17. Those are two separate events as I already showed you. In 1 Thes 4:16-17, Christ comes alone to gather His church. In Mathew 24:31 Christ sends His angels to gather the elect. Very different. The rapture in 1 Thes 4:16-17 is prior to Mathew 24:31

One Coming of the Lord Jesus, after the tribulation.


He will come a second time... not a third time, a second time!

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


The Resurrection and Rapture are One Event that occurs where the Raptured Ones are caught up together with the already Resurrected ones.


Unless you have some scripture that shows the Resurrection of the dead occurring before the tribulation, then "pre -trib" is a myth.


The burden is now on you to prove from the scriptures that the Resurrection of the dead occurs "before" the tribulation.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

Unless you have some scripture that shows the Resurrection of the dead occurring before the tribulation, then "pre -trib" is a myth.

Not necessarily. If one can show from Scripture that Christ returns WITH His saints at His second coming (Rev 19:11-21, note v 14), that is sufficient proof that He had already come FOR His saints before that.

 

[Ricko]

Not necessarily. If one can show from Scripture that Christ returns WITH His saints at His second coming (Rev 19:11-21, note v 14), that is sufficient proof that He had already come FOR His saints before that.

Also, we aren't given any signs for the rapture, but here in Matthew there are many signs given for His coming for judgement.

 

[JLB]

Not necessarily. If one can show from Scripture that Christ returns WITH His saints at His second coming (Rev 19:11-21, note v 14), that is sufficient proof that He had already come FOR His saints before that.

Brother,

The Resurrection occurs at His Coming.

Christ returns a Second Time!

Please present scriptural proof that Christ comes a second time for the Resurrection, BEFORE the Tribulation.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23


... afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.


Those who are Christ's, encompasses the entire body or Christ.

All who are His, are Resurrected, at His Coming.

Those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds.

Please show us where this will occur before the Tribulation.

Pleas show us the scripture that proves the Resurrection of the dead for all the body of Christ will happen before the tribulation.

The Resurrection comes a moment before the rapture, and is one event to gather together all who are Christ's.

The gathering, which is called the Resurrection/Rapture will occur at His Coming, at the end of the age on the last Day.

Not seven years before the end of the age, or sevens years before the last day.


There is One more appearing of the Lord, as he will gather together all His people.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

At His next and final appearing, every eye will see Him, and He will destroy the lawless one with the brightness of His Coming.
...destroy with the brightness of His coming.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


JLB

 

[Nintentacle]

What I am saying is - That we should look for the signs of the last days before anything else, and be prepared for all 3.

 

[JLB]

Not necessarily. If one can show from Scripture that Christ returns WITH His saints at His second coming (Rev 19:11-21, note v 14), that is sufficient proof that He had already come FOR His saints before that.

Jesus is shown to come with His saints from Heaven, because these have already died and are with the Lord.

This occurs at the Resurrection where Jesus gathers all His saints together, in the biblical order of scripture:

First the Resurrection -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

Paul clearly shows us the Resurrection comes just before the Rapture

And the dead in Christ will rise first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Paul shows us that the Rapture is just a moment after the Resurrection, as we are all caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.


It is important to notice that in these verses, the saints come with Jesus, at the Resurrection/Rapture.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14


The Resurrection/Rapture is one event that can not be separated by measurable time.


The saints are shown to come with Him at this Rapture/Resurrection event.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

It is important to notice that in these verses, the saints come with Jesus, at the Resurrection/Rapture.

The Scriptures you are quoting here are not applicable to Rev 19:11-21, which is "the Revelation". Yes, the souls and spirits of the "dead in Christ" come with Him at the Resurrection/Rapture and are then joined to their glorified bodies, so that all the saints return with Him to Heaven as immortal, incorruptible and glorious.

But by the very nature of the differences between "the Revelation" and "the Rapture" it should be clear that these are two separate events. All the prophecies pertaining to the Second Coming "in power and great glory" are silent regarding the Rapture, because it occurs prior to the coming of Christ with His saints as revealed in Rev 19 (and other Scriptures).

 

[JLB]

The Scriptures you are quoting here are not applicable to Rev 19:11-21, which is "the Revelation". Yes, the souls and spirits of the "dead in Christ" come with Him at the Resurrection/Rapture and are then joined to their glorified bodies, so that all the saints return with Him to Heaven as immortal, incorruptible and glorious.

But by the very nature of the differences between "the Revelation" and "the Rapture" it should be clear that these are two separate events. All the prophecies pertaining to the Second Coming "in power and great glory" are silent regarding the Rapture, because it occurs prior to the coming of Christ with His saints as revealed in Rev 19 (and other Scriptures).

The scriptures from 1 Thessalonians 4 are the only scriptures that specifically refer to the rapture, so in context to the "Rapture" verses themselves, we can both be discussing the Rapture/Resurrection without any excuses.

First the Resurrection -It is important to notice that in these verses, the saints come with Jesus, at the Resurrection/Rapture.

The saints are shown to come with Him at this Rapture/Resurrection event


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

Paul clearly shows us the Resurrection comes just before the Rapture. - And the dead in Christ will rise first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Paul shows us that the Rapture is just a moment after the Resurrection, as we are all caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.


Main Points:

• The dead in Christ rise first, Then we who are alive and remainshall be caught up together with them.
• The Resurrection/Rapture are one inseparable event: we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
• at the Rapture, the saints will come with Jesus: even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4 shows us the Resurrection/Rapture as the event to gather His people together, unto Him!




JLB

 

[Ricko]

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

Paul clearly shows us the Resurrection comes just before the Rapture. - And the dead in Christ will rise first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Paul shows us that the Rapture is just a moment after the Resurrection, as we are all caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.


Main Points:

• The dead in Christ rise first, Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.
• The Resurrection/Rapture are one inseparable event: we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
• at the Rapture, the saints will come with Jesus: even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4 shows us the Resurrection/Rapture as the event to gather His people together, unto Him!
JLB

You have a contradiction in your own post. How can God bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus if He hasn't already come to get them? How do you reconcile the many signs given for His second coming but we aren't given any signs for the rapture. Also, in Mathew 24 we are told at His second coming it will be like the days of Noah. Who where left on the earth in the days of Noah? In the days of Noah men where eating and drinking and marrying as Noah preached of God's judgement for 120 years. The righteous were left after the flood. The rapture you see in Mathew 24 is a rapture of the unrighteous unto judgement. The tribulation saints are left on earth to enter into the millennium.

 

[reba]

These are the rules which will be enforced consistently and with certainty.

• Absolutely NO personal remarks or insults.
• No side bar, off topic, or casual conversation. No personal "chats". All posts must pertain directly to the topic of the thread.
• Only one size font is to be used throughout your entire post.
• Only black font may be used when posting. The only exception to this rule is that actual scripture text maybe written in @ secondary color.
• ALL quotations must be supported by a link to the source material.
• You may NOT use an entire post to refute what another member has said. If you argue that another member is incorrect, you must balance your message with a clear explanation of what you believe and why.

In my opinion bold font is not the same size as non bold font...

 

[jasonc]

With the postulation of the seven year trib, how does one negate the plain rendering of no man Knoweth the hour?

 

[Malachi]

With the postulation of the seven year trib, how does one negate the plain rendering of no man Knoweth the hour?

Indeed no man knoweth the hour, and those who set dates and times invariably fall flat on their faces.

The appearance of Christ for His saints will be sudden and unexpected, and the appearance of Christ with His saints likewise. All one can say is that the time is fast approaching for both events, given world conditions (as it was in the days of Noah), as well as the departure from the authority of the Bible and Bible truth (When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?-- Lk 18:8). And the Lord has made it crystal clear that when He is least expected, He will return.

Daniel's 70th Week (7 year tribulation) is yet to come, and that will take place at the time appointed. It will not be negated by either the Rapture or the Revelation.

Edited for bold font. see post #56, reba

 

[jasonc]

Indeed no man knoweth the hour, and those who set dates and times invariably fall flat on their faces.

The appearance of Christ for His saints will be sudden and unexpected, and the appearance of Christ with His saints likewise. All one can say is that the time is fast approaching for both events, given world conditions (as it was in the days of Noah), as well as the departure from the authority of the Bible and Bible truth (When the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?-- Lk 18:8). And the Lord has made it crystal clear that when He is least expected, He will return.

Daniel's 70th Week (7 year tribulation) is yet to come, and that will take place at the time appointed. It will not be negated by either the Rapture or the Revelation.

so how will those in trib simply NOT know what happened when they see the church vanish? they wont have bibles?

 

[Malachi]

so how will those in trib simply NOT know what happened when they see the church vanish? they wont have bibles?

None of this is disclosed in the Bible and speculation is counterproductive. There are several imaginary scenarios.