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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

wondering said:
If God does NOT give me the choice to believe, HOW could He possibly hold me responsible for my sins? If HE causes me to be lost because I'm not one of the "chosen" ones, then how could I possibly deserve hell from a JUST God??
Click to expand...
What ever He does is Godly... we might not understand His actions or inaction's as Godly but they are...

images
 
Nathan said:
I think this is where misinterpretation of thoughts come into play. I see what your saying wondering. But I also think I see what atpollard is seeing/thinking.

God does not command us to believe, as in we have to, even if we don't want to(which doesn't make sense really). But He does command it AS the only way to receive eternal life.

By definition a commandment is a "authoritative prescription". It is a conditional statement, without the ability of the one receiving it to alter it. The commandment is to believe, so we can either obey or disobey. We don't have the choice to "opt out" of the program. :)

Reminds me of a sad time when our church "split". I tried to talk them out of it, but too many hot heads. They took a 'vote of confidence' and much to my surprise there were 3 choices.

Confident
Not Confident
Those abstaining

Looking back its somewhat humorous, but I think I was the only one who stood up when they asked for those abstaining.

Point is, we cannot abstain from God's command. We either obey it or do not. Each way has an outcome.

Maybe atpollards point is if its not a 'command' then when we see the word belief or believes, then its just describing what the person has been predestined to do without choice. But since we can use reason, we can see that it is indeed a command, as John says, and thereby understand its a definite choice.
Click to expand...
It's not always easy to understand spiritual talk.
I think I addressed Atpollards question.
(sometimes I don't!)

Where does God COMMAND us to believe?
We're just told that if we want eternal life THEN we are to believe...
 
reba said:
What ever He does is Godly... we might not understand His actions or inaction's as Godly but they are...

images
Click to expand...
Yes. The proverbial fence. I'm on one too...

But regarding the above...
God is just and He can do whatever He wants to do.
OK.
But then WHY am I told all throughout the N.T. that I am NOT TO SIN.
That I am to confess my sins.

Why would I need NOT TO SIN
OR
to confess those sins...

If God has made up His mind about me already?
 
wondering said:
It's not always easy to understand spiritual talk.
I think I addressed Atpollards question.
(sometimes I don't!)

Where does God COMMAND us to believe?
We're just told that if we want eternal life THEN we are to believe...
Click to expand...
John states it as a command. But my post above also explains that it's a command. You have to understand what a command is in order to understand how it's a command.

What do you think a command is? If you had to define it?
 
wondering said:
Yes. The proverbial fence. I'm on one too...

But regarding the above...
God is just and He can do whatever He wants to do.
OK.
But then WHY am I told all throughout the N.T. that I am NOT TO SIN.
That I am to confess my sins.

Why would I need NOT TO SIN
OR
to confess those sins...

If God has made up His mind about me already?
Click to expand...
Those are also commands. :)
 
Nathan said:
John states it as a command. But my post above also explains that it's a command. You have to understand what a command is in order to understand how it's a command.

What do you think a command is? If you had to define it?
Click to expand...
This is a command:
Mother to child:
Get to bed...
And get there NOW!!

Please post the scripture...
 
Nathan said:
Those are also commands. :)
Click to expand...
Why would I be commanded something if God has already determined my eternal state?

See? It doesn't make sense.

If He's commanding me, it's for my own good. It means I'm to obey that command IF I want eternal life. This means it's up to me and God has not predetermined the eternal state of my soul and spirit.
 
wondering said:
This is a command:
Mother to child:
Get to bed...
And get there NOW!!

Please post the scripture...
Click to expand...
I did above.

But, does you child have a choice? They can either obey or not. It's better if they obey of course. :)
 
wondering said:
Why would I be commanded something if God has already determined my eternal state?

See? It doesn't make sense.

If He's commanding me, it's for my own good. It means I'm to obey that command IF I want eternal life. This means it's up to me and God has not predetermined the eternal state of my soul and spirit.
Click to expand...
Think of it this way.

Did Israel have to do the 10 commandments?

Did they ever disobey?

Does that mean that they weren't commandments?
 
Nathan said:
I did above.

But, does you child have a choice? They can either obey or not. It's better if they obey of course. :)
Click to expand...
They do have a choice.
They could tell me, No - I won't go to bed.
Of course there are consequences.
If I don't obey God, I'm headed south.

I think we're not understanding each other...
 
Nathan said:
Think of it this way.

Did Israel have to do the 10 commandments?

Did they ever disobey?

Does that mean that they weren't commandments?
Click to expand...
Your talking about commands and obeying.

I believe Atpollard and I are talking about God deciding who is saved or not.
I don't understand this to be the same.
 
wondering said:
Your talking about commands and obeying.

I believe Atpollard and I are talking about God deciding who is saved or not.
I don't understand this to be the same.
Click to expand...
Commands are commands.

What your talking about is not commands but preset decision. A command requires something. Obedience or disobedience.

If belief is not a command then there cannot be a choice.

We are thinking the same thing. At pollard wanted verses that said belief was a command. I pointed out that by nature it is a command just the same as the 10 were.
 
wondering said:
They do have a choice.
They could tell me, No - I won't go to bed.
Of course there are consequences.
If I don't obey God, I'm headed south.

I think we're not understanding each other...
Click to expand...
We are. :)

I promise what I said will make sense
 
Nathan said:
Commands are commands.

What your talking about is not commands but preset decision. A command requires something. Obedience or disobedience.

If belief is not a command then there cannot be a choice.

We are thinking the same thing. At pollard wanted verses that said belief was a command. I pointed out that by nature it is a command just the same as the 10 were.
Click to expand...
Nathan,
You're way ahead of me...
We are commanded to believe if we want to be safe.
Our answer must be Yes.
But we must decide to let it be Yes.
So we're deciding to obey the command.
To be safe.

I THINK I get what you mean.
I never thought of it this way.
God commands something, but we can still CHOOSE to obey or not.

Is that it?
 
wondering said:
Yes. The proverbial fence. I'm on one too...

But regarding the above...
God is just and He can do whatever He wants to do.
OK.
But then WHY am I told all throughout the N.T. that I am NOT TO SIN.
That I am to confess my sins.

Why would I need NOT TO SIN
OR
to confess those sins...

If God has made up His mind about me already?
Click to expand...
Because we have responsibilities
 
wondering said:
Nathan,
You're way ahead of me...
We are commanded to believe if we want to be safe.
Our answer must be Yes.
But we must decide to let it be Yes.
So we're deciding to obey the command.
To be safe.

I THINK I get what you mean.
I never thought of it this way.
God commands something, but we can still CHOOSE to obey or not.

Is that it?
Click to expand...
:thumbsup Yup. You got it. :)
 
reba said:
Because we have responsibilities
Click to expand...
How could I be responsible if God doesn't allow me to choose Him or not?

If you notice, every scripture regarding believing is in the present tense.
1 John 5:13
John, once again, says to you WHO BELIEVE.
Not, did once believe, had believed, did believe---it's always BELIEVE, now, at the present moment.
 
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I'd say though, I know you meant "safe" as saved, but that's it.

Belief is not a suggestion. It's a commandment with promise. Eternal life.
 
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