Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

MacArthur seems to make up his own definitions, then proceeds with his explanation, using his own definitions.




Your explanation, if I understand you correctly, seems to line up with what Paul says in Ephesians.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.


Through His foreknowledge God saw those who were in Christ, and He chose them... having predestined those whom He saw were "in Him", to adoption as sons.

The only question now, would be, how does one come to be "in Christ".

They make the choice to believe.



JLB

Right, I see predestination to salvation as a gift to the believer for them to understand God knew they would believe before they were born, and so He has a place for them in the household of God.

Kind of a way of letting them know - hey, you were not a "second choice plan" guys. I meant for you to inherit the promises I gave to Abraham.

I find comfort in predestination myself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yea, that whole section of Romans can be hard to digest. Paul covers a lot of ground and asks a lot of questions. What happens is we try and break it down into bite sized pieces, but when we do, we loose the whole context of it.

The whole point that Paul was making was how God is fulfilling His plan through the different events we see in the OT that seemed odd in a way, but showed Gods divine nature.

If you look closely at it then you'll see that it doesn't talk about specific individual redemption vs exclusion, but rather the contrast between Jew and Gentile.

Seeing how we know God has indeed provided grace and mercy to the Gentiles, we can see that dialog was talking about the overall plan of God. In fact, that's where Paul winds up at the end of chapter 11 before going into the results of

Your paragraph 3:
It's not about specific personal redemption or exclusion,
It has to do with purpose, what was the purpose of that person's life...
Moses
Was he born to be Moses, the freedom of the Jews
Or did he become that through circumstance and then God called him at the buring bush?

For JLB too.

 

[Nathan]

Your paragraph 3:
It's not about specific personal redemption or exclusion,
It has to do with purpose, what was the purpose of that person's life...
Moses
Was he born to be Moses, the freedom of the Jews
Or did he become that through circumstance and then God called him at the buring bush?

For JLB too.

My thoughts do focus on the personal side of the topic, which started with the quote from MacArthur. But I do see the other side as an interesting topic also.

I believe the men and women we find throughout the Bible, that play 'important' roles, were fore known by God to be the people capable of carrying out His plan.

If Moses was born to do everything God wanted, then He would not have messed up. If that makes sense. God knew he would mess up, but also knew he would be able to do what needed to be done.

That's why we find almost every single person who plays an important role in this plan of salvation messing up at some point in their life. I think it's Gods way of saying we are all human, and just like He used them, He can/wants to use us.

 

[atpollard]

Atpollard,
I'm not a Calvinist so for me it's easy to understand this.

God wills, or wants, all men to be saved. Will is equivalent to Want, or desires.

If you check you'll find that almost every bible translates the word as Want or Desire, not Will
1 Timothy 2:4

If "will" meant the mental force of wanting something and causing it to happen through sheer power, then it would stand to reason that ALL men are saved through God's will.

Since we know that belief is necessary for salvation and not every person is saved, then we can know that the correct translation is Want or Desire.

God desires that all men be saved, but not all will be since they must choose to be saved.
1 Timothy 4:10
John 3:17

Just in defense of my word choice, I said "God wills" because I was quoting your statement that said "God wills". I can easily accept that "wills" means "desires or wants".

So then, you have no problem with the mental image of an all-powerful Creator God who WANTS and DESIRES something that will never come to pass because the creation (men and women) choose to oppose the want and desire of the Creator.

OK. Suffice it to say, that rubs me against the fur.

Just for my edification, is there a verse that you can think of off-hand that commands people to believe (or asks them to believe)?
I can think of lots of verses about choosing to "do", but choosing to "be saved" or choosing "to believe" don't spring to mind and will take me a while to search for (plus be very translation dependent for exact wording).

[Just looking for scripture to support for your statement "since they must choose to be saved", so I can evaluate the strength of the Biblical case. I already KNOW the verses for other side.]

 

[JLB]

Yea, that whole section of Romans can be hard to digest. Paul covers a lot of ground and asks a lot of questions. What happens is we try and break it down into bite sized pieces, but when we do, we loose the whole context of it.

The whole point that Paul was making was how God is fulfilling His plan through the different events we see in the OT that seemed odd in a way, but showed Gods divine nature.

Yes, Romans 9 begins with the context of God choosing those through whom the lineage of Christ would come [purpose] rather than God choosing who would be saved or not.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Romans 9:1-5


If we don't grasp this context, then we may read into what he says later as "chosen to be saved", rather than chosen as the lineage through which Christ would come.

IOW, when we read these words...Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated, we may think that God hated Esau and chose him to go to hell, while choosing Jacob for heaven, because He loved Jacob.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:6-13


JLB

 

[JLB]

So then, you have no problem with the mental image of an all-powerful Creator God who WANTS and DESIRES something that will never come to pass because the creation (men and women) choose to oppose the want and desire of the Creator.

• Does God want, or desire all men to come to repentance? Yes.
• Will all men come to repentance? No.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Right, I see predestination to salvation as a gift to the believer for them to understand God knew they would believe before they were born, and so He has a place for them in the household of God.

My summation:

God predestined to adoption as sons, those who He foresaw were in Christ.

He has a place for them in the household of God.

Yes, if they continue in the faith [are faithful] to the end.

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-6


We must see "in Him", in Ephesians 1:4, as being "in Him" to the end, and not just "in Him" for a while, then later removed from Him.



JLB

 

[reba]

The Potter has to know what the clay is going to do before the Potter knows what vessel He will make?

 

[Nathan]

The Potter has to know what the clay is going to do before the Potter knows what vessel He will make?

I think the potter makes the clay for the purpose He wants.

That's why the context of that description in Romans is crucial. He created the Gentiles for dishonor, and the Jews for honor.

It is why Jews called everyone else besides themselves, whether they were greeks, barbarians, romans, etc - dogs. They viewed everyone that was not a Jew a 'vessel' of dishonor.

Romans 9:4-5
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ,who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

The Jews 'contained' the honorable things.

So to go along with your question, if the Potter makes a vessel for dishonor is it always going to be a vessel of dishonor? Can it be cleaned and made one for honor? Paul tells us the answer;

2 Timothy 2:19-21
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

 

[reba]

I sure wouldnt put soup in a thundermug

 

[Nathan]

So then, you have no problem with the mental image of an all-powerful Creator God who WANTS and DESIRES something that will never come to pass because the creation (men and women) choose to oppose the want and desire of the Creator.

I think we can want God to be a certain way to fit our thinking of Him. I have no issue with the mental picture of the Creator of all desiring something that will not happen. Because, I see that He does not want people to sin, yet He allows it. He could have kept satan from the Garden, but He did not. Its all apart of His plan. We will never, ever, be able to understand why He did what He did, we just accept it.

 

[Nathan]

I sure wouldnt put soup in a thundermug

Ok, whats a thundermug?

If you think about it though, all those things we eat from and drink from now days have a lot of 'recycled' parts. It might make you cringe when you think about what they were before hand.

Even worse, in a way, I work in the water treatment field. I deal with fresh water, but I also know about the waste water side. They 'process' waste water, and then once it meets 'state standards' it goes right back into the lake.......the same lake we pull water from to treat it for the purpose of drinking.

Its like that across the country. Don't think that bottled water places have some special way of getting water from thin air........

 

[reba]

2 you guys are talking about the fence i am trying to walk

 

[reba]

Ok, whats a thundermug?
.

A chamber pot the indoor potty for use on cold nights befor indoor plumbing .. WOW i am old

 

[civilwarbuff]

A chamber pot the indoor potty for use on cold nights befor indoor plumbing .. WOW i am old

It had a lid on it and was usually kept under the bed.......

 

[dirtfarmer]

Ok, whats a thundermug?

If you think about it though, all those things we eat from and drink from now days have a lot of 'recycled' parts. It might make you cringe when you think about what they were before hand.

Even worse, in a way, I work in the water treatment field. I deal with fresh water, but I also know about the waste water side. They 'process' waste water, and then once it meets 'state standards' it goes right back into the lake.......the same lake we pull water from to treat it for the purpose of drinking.

Its like that across the country. Don't think that bottled water places have some special way of getting water from thin air........

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Thundermug= chamber pot. Be sure to not take the top off the next morning before empting it!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nathan]

Well think about it for a min. What other passages do people pull out from to try and say some are 100% predestined for hell?

I cannot think of any others. Everywhere else I find that people who do end up there are sent there because of their own deeds, not because they were predestined.

So we cannot just take a passage, which in context is speaking of something else, and then base our whole faith around it.

Well, I suppose some can. I just can't.

But maybe there are more passages out there that I have somehow overlooked?

 

[reba]

YOu mean passages besides Romans ?

 

[Nathan]

Well now I know what a thundermug is. I knew what a chamber pot was, but never heard it called that.

Well, according to Paul, God says its possible. In that passage of Timothy Paul is talking about nasty pots being cleaned for soup bowls.

 

[dirtfarmer]

A chamber pot the indoor potty for use on cold nights befor indoor plumbing .. WOW i am old

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

I would not call you old, just seasoned.