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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible
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GodsGrace
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Hi Atpollard
I have no problem with what you state here:
So then, you have no problem with the mental image of an all-powerful Creator God who WANTS and DESIRES something that will never come to pass because the creation (men and women) choose to oppose the want and desire of the Creator.
I repeat this so many times I'm getting tired of hearing it myself.
God WANTS all to be saved, but since we have FREE WILL, we may not CHOOSE to be saved.
How does that take away from His "all-powerfullness" ?
Do you make your children or wife love you, or do you want their love to be freely given?
Is it love if I FORCE someone to love me (if I had that power) ?
I find much more difficulty with the Calvanistic point of view.
God makes some to be saved.
God makes some to be lost.
HE decides who is saved and who is lost.
Is that a loving God??
There are many verses about choosing to be saved:
John 3:16
Deuteronomy 30:19
Joshua 24:15
1 Timothy 4:10
Galatians 2:16
There are so many verses that I fear I've not understood what you're asking for...
Joh_13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
atpollard
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You sort of missed the point. I didn't ask if you beleved it was true, that was a given. What I asked was ...
Which your response suggests you have no problem with an omnipotent God subject to the limitations of human decision. Ok. Lots of people don't. I do happen to be bothered by that as a concept (but not as a reality). Romans 9:13-16
Nathan
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Thanks
Just so I can give my thoughts on the passages you listed, I'd like to, in order that I might hear from you or others how they do talk about God creating ones for hell?I would have to say right off the bat that John 13:18 is not dealing with salvation, heaven or hell, just the fact that Judas was going to betray Him.
John 15:15 is speaking to the fact that God chooses us first, not that we choose Him first. It doesn't say anything about creating ones for hell.
2Thess 2:13 is again speaking of the position we have in Christ, that was predestined for those who would believe. Nothing about creating ones for hell.
1Peter 2:9 is speaking of our position in Christ. Nothing about creating ones for hell.
Rev 17:8 is probably the closest I could see, but why would we not see that those who God foreknew would believe in Him are the ones who do have their names written?
Revelation 20:12 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Why would they be judged on what they had done, if they had no choice in the matter?
It seems to me that the book of life is not set in stone. As in, those who are in it will always be in it, and those who are not will never be.
Exodus 3:31-34
So Moses returned to the LORD and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin.They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. But now go, lead the people to the place about which I have spoken to you; behold, my angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.
Revelation 3:5 - The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
I suppose if we were to know for sure, we would have to understand just exactly how one gets put into this book, and how one gets taken from it. But again, it is not saying that He created some humans for hell. It just says that whoever is not found written in the book will be sent to hell.
Why would God need to look at a book? Somehow a person gets their name written in the book.....
Revelation 21:27 - But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
That is something that happens, not something that just "is". If they were just "there" then the word 'written' would not be needed.
Nathan
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When you start looking at it, it almost seems that all humans are written into the book of life. The wicked are almost always seen as being blotted out. Interesting. When you think about it even more, they actually look for their name to be written - like a cross reference to see if they are there or not.
I see now, its a translation wording. Its thought that their names were not written from the foundation of the world, when in fact that verse is speaking of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
NKJV
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
YLT
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Stands to reason that since this verse precedes the other, then this is what is meant by "from the foundation of the world".
I see now, its a translation wording. Its thought that their names were not written from the foundation of the world, when in fact that verse is speaking of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
KJV
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
NKJV
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
YLT
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
Stands to reason that since this verse precedes the other, then this is what is meant by "from the foundation of the world".
atpollard
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Let's see if I can be clearer ...
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
This verse is not a command to believe, it is simply a statement about "whoever believes in Him". If the person chose to believe, then that is how they became "whoever believes in Him". If God gave them a new heart and made them believe, then that is how they became "whoever believes in Him". If someone put a gun to their head and said "believe or die", then that is how they became "whoever believes in Him". I am looking for a verse where God actually commands someone to "be saved" or at least commands them to "believe" which leads to salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
This is clearly a call to a choice, but this is a call to DOING and not BELIEVING. If they DO the actions that the Law commands, then they will have the blessings that God has promised. If they DO the things that God has forbidden, then they will have the curses that God has threatened. This is not call to choose salvation, a belief, in the sense of the New Covenant. I am looking for scripture to support for your statement "since they must choose to be saved" of modern Christians. Choosing to obey the Law of Moses (with it's Do This and Do not Do that) is not really the same. It is not a call to choose to be saved (believe).
Joshua 24:15 “And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Again a choice to DO rather than BELIEVE. I can choose to drive the speed limit, or not. Choosing to believe in Bigfoot is not really the same thing.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,[fn] because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Like John 3:16, no one is being commanded to believe nor does the sentence suggest that they can or cannot choose to believe. It just makes statements about those who do believe, however they got to that state ... free will, divine intervention, a gun to the head.
Galatians 2:16 “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
This clearly presents the need for belief in order to be justified and just as clearly makes works of the law not the source of justification. However all it says is "we have believed" marking the fact that belief has occured with no statement whatsoever ti indicate that they chose to believe, God gave them belief, or someone forced them to believe at gunpoint. It just says that they have believed.
If I can find a clear command to "believe", then that suggests that it is possible for a man to believe on his own. God is not generally unreasonable, telling us to do things which are impossible (there are a few exceptions, but they tend to be to make a point or teach a lesson), so a command to "be saved" or "to believe" suggests that those actions are within our power.
Calvinists believe that "belief" and "salvation" are not within the power of man. That is why God MUST save us. I am prepared to seriously examine verses that suggest different and want to start with verses that seriously challenge the Calvinist view that man cannot choose.
You said "they must choose to be saved" and I am looking for anything that says that (or implies it through a command).
I was once a Church of God (Wesleyan Arminian) and came to accept Reformed Theology by reading Paul's letters. I am willing to take a long hard look at scripture and be proven wrong. However, it will take more than John 3:16 to convince me that John 6:43-44 doesn't indicate that "God invites" and "not everyone is invited" [but don't ask me why, I have no idea.]
Nathan
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Romans 10:14-21
How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
"Disobedient" - apeitheō - not to allow one's self to be persuaded; to refuse or withhold belief; to refuse belief and obedience; not to comply with
"Contrary" - antilegō - to speak against, gainsay, contradict; to oppose one's self to one, decline to obey him, declare one's self against him, refuse to have anything to do with him
It does not look like God was asking, for if He was asking, then it would not be considered disobedience.
Nathan
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Romans 11:17-23
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
It is "their" unbelief. That is a possessive term of something they have, not something they were given. If it were God who required them to not believe then it could not be said it was "their" unbelief - rather, it would say "unbelief" or "unbelief given them" or something like that.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
It is "their" unbelief. That is a possessive term of something they have, not something they were given. If it were God who required them to not believe then it could not be said it was "their" unbelief - rather, it would say "unbelief" or "unbelief given them" or something like that.
Nathan
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1 John 3:23 - And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
Seems like a command to me.......
Seems like a command to me.......
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I don't have a problem with God wanting, desiring, or willing that men be saved, and they choose otherwise.
- Does God want, or desire all men to come to repentance? Yes.
- Will all men come to repentance? No.
JLB
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Paul addresses this idea, when writing to Timothy.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21
"If" is the condition, that relies upon each ones choice.
Choosing to be a vessel for honor or a vessel for dishonor.
God allows us to choose what type of vessel we are to be.
If we cleanse ourselves from being a vessel for dishonor, then we will be considered a vessel for honor, fit for the Master's use.
God's will or desire is for us to be sanctified, however not all will choose to be obedient in doing this.
JLB
Nathan
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reba, you forgot one I just saw Or maybe you meant to include it in the one you posted? You posted the verse right after these.
1 Peter 2:7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Or maybe you meant to include it in the one you posted? You posted the verse right after these.1 Peter 2:7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
atpollard
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If that was for me ... it was water off a duck.
I do not believe that God creates unbelief any more than I would argue that God creates sin.
(No double predestination for me, thank you.)
Romans 3:10-18 We are quite capable of unbelief without any help from God.
Ephesians 2:8 God's solution to the problem.
[Absent a verse that says we "choose to be saved".]
Nathan
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But.......it doesn't say they were destined to hell. Just to stumble on the stone.
We could infer that who all does not believe will be cast into hell, so therefore they could be said to be cast into hell.....
But......if we go back to what Paul talks about in Romans, we see that they had to be partially hardened - some had to be made to stumble - in order that the gospel come to the Gentiles. Then Paul says;
Romans 11:11
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
So, we have to revert back to the point that they still have(those who are still alive of course) a chance to come to belief.
We could infer that who all does not believe will be cast into hell, so therefore they could be said to be cast into hell.....
But......if we go back to what Paul talks about in Romans, we see that they had to be partially hardened - some had to be made to stumble - in order that the gospel come to the Gentiles. Then Paul says;
Romans 11:11
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
So, we have to revert back to the point that they still have(those who are still alive of course
) a chance to come to belief.
Nathan
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I see what your saying.
Maybe I did not clarify it. They were once a part of the tree. We know they were cut off from the tree because God only allows(command) that people who believe should be apart of the tree. However, if they do not continue in unbelief and turn to belief, as God commands(condition of being on the tree), then they will be grafted in.
The 10 Commandments were not just suggestions or possible ways of right living. They were commandments given by God that people had to obey in order to be right with God.
To say that He does not "command" belief is to say that humans can just believe what they want. That's not the case. They have to believe something very specific in order to be saved, or not believe and stay lost, that is intrinsically a command - not a suggestion - not a general statement. As John very clearly points out.
GodsGrace
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Nathan has also given a good answer.
Mine would be much shorter.
Atpollard, THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.
God DOES NOT command that anyone MUST believe.
It is OUR CHOICE.
I find it interesting that you think that if God gave the command that one must believe, then it would stand to reason that man would be CAPABLE of believing all on his own.
Every time God tells us to choose, or gives us a choice, it is CONFIRMATION that we have the capability to decide for ourselves.
If God does NOT give me the choice to believe, HOW could He possibly hold me responsible for my sins? If HE causes me to be lost because I'm not one of the "chosen" ones, then how could I possibly deserve hell from a JUST God??
You will not find a clear command to believe, you will only find HOW to believe, or upon WHOM to believe.
Acts 4:12
Acts 2:21
What made you change your mind? Was it one particular scripture? Something someone said? It's so clear to me that this is like a testing ground for us. If we serve God, we go to be with God --- If we serve satan, we go to be with satan. No middle ground.
1 Corinthians 10:21
I also like Rev 3:20
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. WE must open the door and let Him in to sup with us.
We must purposefully, and by choice, decide whom we will serve.
If God chooses heaven for us, how could we deserve heaven?
It would not be of our own doing...
Nathan
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I think this is where misinterpretation of thoughts come into play. I see what your saying wondering. But I also think I see what atpollard is seeing/thinking.
God does not command us to believe, as in we have to, even if we don't want to(which doesn't make sense really). But He does command it AS the only way to receive eternal life.
By definition a commandment is a "authoritative prescription". It is a conditional statement, without the ability of the one receiving it to alter it. The commandment is to believe, so we can either obey or disobey. We don't have the choice to "opt out" of the program.
Reminds me of a sad time when our church "split". I tried to talk them out of it, but too many hot heads. They took a 'vote of confidence' and much to my surprise there were 3 choices.
Confident
Not Confident
Those abstaining
Looking back its somewhat humorous, but I think I was the only one who stood up when they asked for those abstaining.
Point is, we cannot abstain from God's command. We either obey it or do not. Each way has an outcome.
Maybe atpollards point is if its not a 'command' then when we see the word belief or believes, then its just describing what the person has been predestined to do without choice. But since we can use reason, we can see that it is indeed a command, as John says, and thereby understand its a definite choice.