Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Please provide a reference in support of this statement.
I am a Calvinist and can invite you to a Calvinist website if you care to take a pole ... that is not what any of us believe.

Well, there is no Biblical reference for this. It is what I am gathering. I don't think its correct, but that's what I am hearing said.

Do the Calvinists think that a person has to believe on their own, or do they think God makes them believe?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well, I can say that I definitely do not have an Arminianism view. They are way too left(or right) of my position. Probably just as far the opposite side as Calvinism is on one side of my position.

I fully believe that election and perseverance is a God ordained, and worked, theology. I just can't see where someone, who truly comes to Christ, has ever done so without wanting to. Which, I guess would be part of the "irresistible draw" of Calvinism. But if that's the case, then the people I know, who have 'felt this' and then turned away from it are either lying or completely crazy. If Calvinism were true, I don't see how God would partially call to someone, then when they came close, say "no, I did not choose you".

We have to understand that "many are called, but few are chosen". So if He does call many, but only chooses a few, then He is indeed turning people away. There is no way to get around that(that I can see) with Calvinism.

You cant say the ones "not chosen" were not called. Maybe some were not? But we know some were. So, according to Calvin, irresistible draw would not let the ones called be turned away.

So you have a dichotomy(extreme conflict) with turning people away and irresistible draw. Calvinism contradicts itself.

I can be wrong but seeing and better understanding your view, you and I, certainly differ but like myself, you are a Biblicist. Having followed you a bit now I see your stance, I understand, much better. Thanks for clearly stating your position.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan said: ↑
If He does not give a choice to believe, then there is no knowledge of sin. Knowledge of sin only comes when someone understand what God commands. Sin is not just missing the mark, sin is missing God's mark. If you have no knowledge of God's mark, then you could always think you are hitting the correct mark. Therefore, you would never know you have sinned against God.

According to the Calvinist theory, that would mean a person would know what God wants, yet be unable to attain it because its not granted to them.

Same as above, please provide a reference.
I am a Calvinist and I do not believe this.

Again, I cannot. Just going off what I am hearing/reading. Does God give a choice to believe? If He doesn't, then there is no command that they can be breaking. If they do not break a command, how can they sin?

 

[Nathan]

I can be wrong but seeing and better understanding your view, you and I, certainly differ but like myself, you are a Biblicist. Having followed you a bit now I see your stance, I understand, much better. Thanks for clearly stating your position.

Thanks. As you know, I am not shy about my beliefs and am always ready to give a reason for the hope in me to anyone who asks.

I do take things very literally when they are presented that way(I do know a lot of things are metaphors).

I try to state things clearly so that I am not misunderstood, good to hear that it comes across that way.

 

[JLB]

... Or else I will STRIP YOU OF THE GRACE YOU HAD RECEIVED AND CAST YOU INTO ETERNAL TORMENT! (added by Arminian Freewill Theology).

Traditional Calvinists believe the chosen/elect WILL be given the strength through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us to Persevere to the end.
We press on and the H.S. gives us a kick to keep us moving from time to time.

Like Jonah, we will arrive at Nineveh ... one way or another. It is the will of God!

The question remains.

How can having the freedom to choose, paint God as a monster?

Or to put it another way, how is the free gift forced on us so we can not refuse?


JLB

 

[atpollard]

God may not make the person sin, as in take their mind/heart and direct their actions - but He does confine ALL under sin. In other words, God does not make a person sin - but He does not allow them to not sin. He doesn't just "allow" people to sin, He makes it impossible for them not to sin.

So you are saying God is responsible for all sin because no human being is incapable of not sinning. Is that your argument?
It is God's fault! (Genesis 3:12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”... Adam tried that.)

Is God then UNJUST for sending ANYONE to Hell?

 

[Nathan]

Nathan said: ↑
God may not make the person sin, as in take their mind/heart and direct their actions - but He does confine ALL under sin. In other words, God does not make a person sin - but He does not allow them to not sin. He doesn't just "allow" people to sin, He makes it impossible for them not to sin.

So you are saying God is responsible for all sin because no human being is incapable of not sinning. Is that your argument?
It is God's fault! (Genesis 3:12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”... Adam tried that.)

Is God then UNJUST for sending ANYONE to Hell?

I am saying He allows sin, and made it impossible for people to not sin. Adam was not incorrect about the fact that God put the woman there with him. He was incorrect when he insinuated it was God who made him sin. God is not 'responsible' for sin because He cannot sin, nor does He make anyone sin. There is a difference between making someone sin, and making it impossible for them not to sin.

Its really not an argument, Paul said it just the same way.

Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

That word means to put up walls and enclose someone in - on all sides - no way of escape. And of course, all disobedience is sin.

 

[atpollard]

So those that opposed God's will - they were made to by God? So God wanted them to do one thing, but then wanted them not to do it? 2

I do not know that "they" exist except in theory.
Can you see the soul of another and know if that person is saved?

The Apostle John says: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19) so I believe THAT is a fact. Jesus warned me about false Prophets (“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.) in Matthew 7:15-20 and Jesus warned me about false Disciples (“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’) in Matthew 7:21-23, so I believe THOSE are a fact.

These people that are not saved - then saved - then not saved again ... are only hypothetical to me. I only know of my salvation and how God has jealously protected it and prevented me from stumbling beyond his grasp. The shepherd left the 99 and dragged the one back.

So I am forced to accept what I read in the Bible and know for myself.

 

[Nathan]

Is God then UNJUST for sending ANYONE to Hell?

Forgot to answer this question. No, He is just. Because while He does make it impossible to not sin, He does make it possible to have that sin paid for. Good news!

If you receive God's gift of faith, then you can be forgiven of your sins. So, those who do not receive the gift, who reject it, at that point they are the ones sentencing themselves to hell. And because God is just, He must send them there because they chose it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thanks. As you know, I am not shy about my beliefs and am always ready to give a reason for the hope in me to anyone who asks.

I do take things very literally when they are presented that way(I do know a lot of things are metaphors).

I try to state things clearly so that I am not misunderstood, good to hear that it comes across that way.

Yeah, but it is tough because both of the Main Line Divisions want to fight with the handful Biblicists in the world over this or4 that point of scripture instead of taking the whole of it all before deciding, good luck!

 

[Nathan]

Nathan said: ↑
So those that opposed God's will - they were made to by God? So God wanted them to do one thing, but then wanted them not to do it? 2

I do not know that "they" exist except in theory.
Can you see the soul of another and know if that person is saved?

The Apostle John says: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19) so I believe THAT is a fact. Jesus warned me about false Prophets (“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.) in Matthew 7:15-20 and Jesus warned me about false Disciples (“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’) in Matthew 7:21-23, so I believe THOSE are a fact.

These people that are not saved - then saved - then not saved again ... are only hypothetical to me. I only know of my salvation and how God has jealously protected it and prevented me from stumbling beyond his grasp. The shepherd left the 99 and dragged the one back.

So I am forced to accept what I read in the Bible and know for myself.

I'm confused. Was this a yes or no to the question of if God makes these people oppose His will?

 

[Nathan]

Numbers 20:1-13
And the people of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh. And Miriam died there and was buried there.

Now there was no water for the congregation. And they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron. And the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Would that we had perished when our brothers perished before the LORD! Why have you brought the assembly of the LORD into this wilderness, that we should die here, both we and our cattle? And why have you made us come up out of Egypt to bring us to this evil place? It is no place for grain or figs or vines or pomegranates, and there is no water to drink.” Then Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the entrance of the tent of meeting and fell on their faces. And the glory of the LORD appeared to them, and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Take the staff, and assemble the congregation, you and Aaron your brother, and tell the rock before their eyes to yield its water. So you shall bring water out of the rock for them and give drink to the congregation and their cattle.” And Moses took the staff from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

Then Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock, and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels: shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their livestock. And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe in me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them. ”These are the waters of Meribah, where the people of Israel quarreled with the LORD, and through them he showed himself holy.

Did God make Moses strike the rock? After He told him not to?

 

[atpollard]

The question remains.

[1] How can having the freedom to choose, paint God as a monster?

[2] Or to put it another way, how is the free gift forced on us so we can not refuse?

JLB

[2] You are asking the wrong question, but have already ignored the right question and answer.

[1] So let's humor your first question:
A hypothetical Arminian is saved and believes for 50 years. If they died during that 50 years, would they spend eternity in Heaven or Hell?
God allows them to live another 10 years, during the first 5 years of their remaining life, they watch their spouse die a slow, painful death of bone cancer. This leaves them bitter, so they exercise their freewill and turn their back on God, leaping from his hand, negating all of God's promises and proving the omnipotent Creator to be impotent at keeping His Sheep from straying. He dies apostate and goes to his eternal torment.

That is how freewill of man and an impotent Shepherd paint God as a monster. God COULD have taken that man home to eternity in Heaven, but abandoned him to eternity in Hell because God refused to act.

Unlike the sinner who a 'Calvinist Theology' God chose not to save, this is a 'saved' person that an 'Arminian theology' God chose to abandon to Hell rather than snatch home while there was still time. Which is the real monster, a God who punishes the guilty, or a God who refuses to save those in Christ?

Question answered. Will you listen, or just ask again?

 

[atpollard]

I'm confused. Was this a yes or no to the question of if God makes these people oppose His will?

Do you still beat your wife?
A simple yes or no, please.

 

[GodsGrace]

[2] You are asking the wrong question, but have already ignored the right question and answer.

[1] So let's humor your first question:
A hypothetical Arminian is saved and believes for 50 years. If they died during that 50 years, would they spend eternity in Heaven or Hell?
God allows them to live another 10 years, during the first 5 years of their remaining life, they watch their spouse die a slow, painful death of bone cancer. This leaves them bitter, so they exercise their freewill and turn their back on God, leaping from his hand, negating all of God's promises and proving the omnipotent Creator to be impotent at keeping His Sheep from straying. He dies apostate and goes to his eternal torment.

That is how freewill of man and an impotent Shepherd paint God as a monster. God COULD have taken that man home to eternity in Heaven, but abandoned him to eternity in Hell because God refused to act.

Unlike the sinner who a 'Calvinist Theology' God chose not to save, this is a 'saved' person that an 'Arminian theology' God chose to abandon to Hell rather than snatch home while there was still time. Which is the real monster, a God who punishes the guilty, or a God who refuses to save those in Christ?

Question answered. Will you listen, or just ask again?

You incorrectly assume too much atpollard.
My mother died of cancer
My father died of Alzheimers.
My husband has Parkinson's.
My granddaughter is autistic.

I love God, my maker, helper and savior.

 

[atpollard]

Did God make Moses strike the rock? After He told him not to?

Assuming that was to me ... no.

("After He told him not to?" is not a question.)

 

[atpollard]

You incorrectly assume too much atpollard.
My mother died of cancer
My father died of Alzheimers.
My husband has Parkinson's.
My granddaughter is autistic.

I love God, my maker, helper and savior.

Are you claiming that you are living proof that Salvation cannot be lost?
The point of my story is that was the sort of thing that people claim made them stop believing in God.

According to 'freewill':
If God calls you home while you are still believing, you go to Heaven.
If God calls you home after you stop believing, you go to Hell.
By waiting until someone stopped believing, God CHOSE to lose a person that God could have saved by calling them home while they still believed.

That was my point.

 

[Nathan]

Do you still beat your wife?
A simple yes or no, please.

No.

 

[Nathan]

Are you claiming that you are living proof that Salvation cannot be lost?
The point of my story is that was the sort of thing that people claim made them stop believing in God.

According to 'freewill':
If God calls you home while you are still believing, you go to Heaven.
If God calls you home after you stop believing, you go to Hell.
By waiting until someone stopped believing, God CHOSE to lose a person that God could have saved by calling them home while they still believed.

That was my point.

I'm not talking about loss of salvation. That was a different thread which sadly got snatched by aliens....

I'm talking about receiving salvation. That's what this thread is about.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I am saying He allows sin, and made it impossible for people to not sin. Adam was not incorrect about the fact that God put the woman there with him. He was incorrect when he insinuated it was God who made him sin. God is not 'responsible' for sin because He cannot sin, nor does He make anyone sin. There is a difference between making someone sin, and making it impossible for them not to sin.

Its really not an argument, Paul said it just the same way.

Romans 11:32 - For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

That word means to put up walls and enclose someone in - on all sides - no way of escape. And of course, all disobedience is sin.

The only point I see you left out is that stupid tree. God created the Garden and because of His foreknowledge He knew Satan would tempt Eve if the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there and He put it there.

The elephant in the room is Love and so darn many cannot see it! God loves His Creation and He wants that same, unwavering, love in return. People on the Calvinist side and on the Arminian side insist on leaving some of God's expressed characteristics out of the equation in order to reach their positions.

God has revealed Himself to us through the Scriptures and the fallacy I see is the understanding of just what God's Word is. Far to many believe that God's Word can be found in the Bible instead of the Bible is the Word of God and the opposing sides have chosen different selections to prove their points of view, with no attempt to harmonize the scriptures.

Just where I stand.