Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It proves nothing of the sort.
God does not force anyone to love Him. (If that were possible.)

We aren't sheep. We're human beings created in the image and likeness of God. (Sheep were not so created.)
One of God's attributes is His free will. He does whatever He decides to do.
We were created like Him also having free will

God didn't refuse to act.
In Jesus birth, hideous death, and resurrection, God did everything necessary for any person, anywhere, at any time to choose to repent, believe the Gospel and receive eternal life.
It is not God who refuses to act, it is man who refuses to accept the gift of eternal life or, for whatever excuse, to reject the eternal life that was given to him.
That doesn't make God a monster; it makes man stupid.

What makes God a monster is the Calvinist teachings of Total depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited atonement and Irresistible Grace by which God has made all of mankind His enemies but, chooses some people who hate Him and are incapable of doing His will to be reprogrammed by the Holy Spirit to love Him and do His will. The rest of humanity, the monster god of Calvin sends to hell for not doing what God made impossible for them to do: love Him and obey Him.

You've got it backwards.

God has given you the gift of salvation; it is in YOU hands. Use it or lose it.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Pick one. or

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

I agree for the most part(not that it matters to you ), but there is one thing I find interesting.

I know God has free will, but when it comes to salvation He is an "open book". That is, He tells us exactly what His plan is. While He may have free will, He cannot lie. If He says something about salvation you can rest assured He is not going to change it. I find that comforting.

 

[Jim Parker]

I know God has free will, but when it comes to salvation He is an "open book". That is, He tells us exactly what His plan is. While He may have free will, He cannot lie. If He says something about salvation you can rest assured He is not going to change it. I find that comforting.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Exactly.
But, we don't know the future; only God does.
Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination.
As best I can tell, He doesn't choose whom He will save but He knows who will choose Him and be saved.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[atpollard]

Yes

The only question in my post (to which you could have answered yes or no) was "Can you see the soul of another and know if that person is saved?"

To say that I am skeptical that your answer to THAT question is an honest 'Yes' is an understatement of epic proportions. So to what does the 'Yes' refer?

 

[atpollard]

My question is simple.

It's not a trick question, but one that I'm asking you to answer, so maybe you could be better understood.

Here is you statement below, from which my question comes from.

How can having freedom, the freedom to choose, somehow paint God as a monster?

JLB

Question answered. Will you listen, or just ask again?

Now we have our answer.

 

[atpollard]

Ok, I googled it. *edit Here is the quote I found, feel free to correct it atpollard

So God doesn't tell His Son not to save them, He just "passes over them" burning in the box? What's the difference?

Read the Reformed Confessions. (frankly, I am tired of being told what I believe and challenged when I try to say that is not 'Calvinism' aka. 'Reformed Theology')
I am not obligated to explain your analogy. People are not in a burning box, are they?

 

[JLB]

The only question in my post (to which you could have answered yes or no) was "Can you see the soul of another and know if that person is saved?"

To say that I am skeptical that your answer to THAT question is an honest 'Yes' is an understatement of epic proportions. So to what does the 'Yes' refer?

Here is my answer again.

Yes, lost refers to a condition that mean means no longer in possession of.

• 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

The sheep belonged to the Shepherd at one time then became lost, no longer in possession of the Shepherd; as a sinner is lost to God until he repents.

A condition the Calvinist claims can never happen... because once a person is saved, they are always saved, which means they can never become lost.

Lost represents a condition that is without God: A sinner who is dead to God.

A lost soul is one that goes to hell.

36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? Mark 8:36-37


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now we have our answer.

I'm listening, waiting for your answer.

 

[atpollard]

I'm listening, waiting for your answer.

According to 'freewill':
If God calls you home while you are still believing, you go to Heaven.
If God calls you home after you stop believing, you go to Hell.
By waiting until someone stopped believing, God CHOSE to lose a person that God could have saved by calling them home while they still believed.

 

[atpollard]

As best I can tell, He doesn't choose whom He will save but He knows who will choose Him and be saved.

2 Thesselonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Scripture says otherwise.

 

[Nathan]

Read the Reformed Confessions. (frankly, I am tired of being told what I believe and challenged when I try to say that is not 'Calvinism' aka. 'Reformed Theology')
I am not obligated to explain your analogy. People are not in a burning box, are they?

Your not obligated at all. I'm simply stating that's exactly how I see Calvinism. I'm not trying to say that's how you view it.

I looked up "reformed theology". Lots of different reformations out there. Lol. If you wanted to, I would not mind at all to follow a link to better understand your point of view.

You ask a great question. I was actually going to ask you the same. I though last night about how the analogy might be wrong in your way of thinking and figured the best way is to start from the bottom and work up.

As I see it, we are in a burning box(those outside of Christ that is). God has "boxed" mankind in. Made it impossible to sin. We know that the punishment for sin is hell. We know that unless something happens, that's where those outside of Christ end up. That place is said to be burning.

So, the box is on fire. Those of us in Christ view by faith our end result, I'm simply doing the same.

But, if you wish, you could drop the "on fire" part and say they are on a conveyor belt headed toward a furnace.

Either way, we know that these humans are in a position they cannot do anything about. Would you agree? So the way I see it, God "predestined" a place on that belt that will "elect" some boxes off, but 'allows' the rest to continue on to the furnace. Anything I have read about any Calvinist point of view is this way. You believe this?(metaphorically of course)

 

[GodsGrace]

Read the Reformed Confessions. (frankly, I am tired of being told what I believe and challenged when I try to say that is not 'Calvinism' aka. 'Reformed Theology')
I am not obligated to explain your analogy. People are not in a burning box, are they?

Hi Atpollard,

I, like Nathan, am very interested in understanding what you believe.

It's good that we understand each other's position - otherwise, what are we talking about here?

For instance, Augustine did not believe in double predestination. Also, he's the ONLY early church theologian that spoke about predestination, which is why I don't think it's important to go through what he believed. He was not correct on other things and I can't trust him.

I have posted, a couple of times in fact, what the early church fathers stated about eternal security. I'm not going to do it again since it seems not to be important to many here. As if the early theologians - the closest to the time of Christ - knew less than those of later times.

Anyway, here's my belief in a nutshell:

We are sinners and born to go to hell.
God made provision for this in Genesis 3:15
God has made us in His image.
He gave us free will, the freedom to do as we will (as He also has)
We thus have a choice to be saved or to be lost.
It is OUR choice. We cannot blame God for ANYTHING since we decide.
If we serve God we go to heaven.
If we serve satan we go to hell. (no grey area)

Could you state that simply what your belief is? Sometimes you sound like a 5 point Calvinist, and sometimes you refute it but do not replace it with anything.

It's not correct for you to defend a position you do not hold.

 

[JLB]

JLB said: ↑
I'm listening, waiting for your answer.

atpollard said:
According to 'freewill':
If God calls you home while you are still believing, you go to Heaven.
If God calls you home after you stop believing, you go to Hell.
By waiting until someone stopped believing, God CHOSE to lose a person that God could have saved by calling them home while they still believed.

I'm glad you answered someone else's question.
My question still remain's, and I see you you're not going to answer me, so I will leave it alone.


How can having freedom, the freedom to choose, somehow paint God as a monster?



JLB

 

[Nathan]

So I got to thinking on the way into work.

Any belief of 'predestination' apart from God's foreknowledge gives us the analogy of the boxes on the conveyor.

Its impossible to get around that. It really makes me wonder why people think that way? That God would make it impossible to receive something and judge someone based on something they had no way of not doing?

In fact, that is in itself impossible.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

"judged" - krinō - to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose; to determine, resolve, decree; to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it;

How can one be rightfully 'judged' based on something they had no control over? Does that mean that Calvinist theology believes mankind has control over sin?

In order to 'judge' someone, you have to understand there is a right and wrong way. Because that is what you are judging them on. If there is nothing to judge them against, then its impossible to judge. So a person who has no choice but to do one thing cannot be judged by something else.

If your driving down the road, and a officer pulls you over, and judges you to be speeding - then that must mean there was a speed limit posted or made known somehow. But if that same officer, then starts to write all the passengers in the car a ticket, that would not be right. Those passengers had no choice in the matter if they had no control whatsoever.

 

[JLB]

How can one be rightfully 'judged' based on something they had no control over? Does that mean that Calvinist theology believes mankind has control over sin?

In order to 'judge' someone, you have to understand there is a right and wrong way. Because that is what you are judging them on. If there is nothing to judge them against, then its impossible to judge. So a person who has no choice but to do one thing cannot be judged by something else.

This kind of perception of God is disturbing, and the thought that Calvinist's are teaching this to God's people is frightening.

The Holy Spirit through Peter has given us the responsibility to: giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

The person who puts no conscience effort into adding to their faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge self control... and so on, will be barren in these things, "thinking" there is nothing for them to do, because God has chosen them to be saved, and they have no choice in the things accomplished, so they go about their lives taking no heed to the truth's in the bible, and applying them to their lives.


Many more things in scripture such as these are given to the believer to do, some with a caution of very real consequences if not heeded.


Here is one involving a lack of self control, one of the thing's Peter told us we are to be adding to our faith.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


... just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


One of the fruit's of the Spirit is self control, as listed in the next verse.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control.
Galatians 5:22-23

Exercising self control, takes a deliberate, conscious effort. It actually takes practice.

IOW, we are to practice self control, self discipline: the conscious applied effort to exercise dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh, by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit, to accomplish God's will.

Paul referred to this as... "you" by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Paul describes this as a debt or obligation we have to live or "sow" that is to say, "invest" our lives toward the desires of the Spirit, not the sinful desires of the flesh.

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8


"Sowing" or "investing" takes a conscious dedicated effort, in which God will empower us, and bless us to accomplish the "putting to death" the deeds of the flesh.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I agree JLB. While I find disturbing, what you find disturbing, I find something more disturbing with that theology.

It goes against who God says He is in Scripture. I find that it limits people's view of God and distorts it at the same time. It puts more 'favor' onto the ones "chosen" instead of giving glory and honor to the One choosing.

I believe that God chooses us before we ever have a choice to chose Him. But when you say that He 'deliberately' or 'passively' looks over some of His creation, then you have to view the ones He does chose as 'special' - thereby, singling them out and putting them above others. We are special to Him, but His whole creation is special to Him. If Paul, one who knew so deeply of the love of God toward him, cared so much for those who had not believed in Christ - who rejected Christ - then why should we not feel the same way?

From what I read, predestination without foreknowledge, came from the thought process of Calvin who could not reconcile - in his mind - that there were some who would not receive, or have placed on them, the payment of sins Jesus made. In fact, Calvin thought that without predestination(and somehow apart from foreknowledge) no one could be saved.

That is the statement I heard from RC Sproul also. His reasoning for predestination, apart from foreknowledge, was that we know - its been already written - that there will be people who are saved from hell and given eternal life. They believe because of this, that God had to predestine those individuals, otherwise there would be no one.

I simply believe this is a very distorted view of God and His plan. Why predestination has to be without foreknowledge is where I do not understand the Calvinist or 'Reformed Confession' point of view. I do not see anywhere in the Bible that predestination cannot be without foreknowledge - and even more so, how predestination is only viewed for salvation and not the plan of salvation He works out in those He chooses.

Here is a quote from wikipedia on it;

The "actual fact" that Calvin observed was that even among those to whom "the covenant of life" is preached, it does not gain the same acceptance.

So Calvin based his theory because of some that rejected Christ after being preached the covenant of life(I assume he means the Gospel?). Why Calvin could not reconcile in his mind that those who reject do so because they choose is beyond me. Someone has to make the choice correct? So either they have to reject, or God has to reject them. If Calvin believes they cannot reject, because they are not "given the spirit of repentance and faith", then that means God has rejected them.

As far as I can tell, the 'Reformed Confessions' more or less just drop all the statements about the lost and focus on the 'elect'. But here is the thing, you cannot just forget about them. God doesn't. Why would we?

We preach the Gospel to all, and know that God has to draw them before they can respond. We could say, that after preaching to some and they reject it, that they were not 'elect' - but is that not playing god? So then we could also say, they may be 'elect', but we will have to let God 'sort' it out in the end. Ok, then how can one be sure of anything?

Calvin, and the sects that came out from him, would say that "continuance in the faith" is assurance. I would agree, that is assurance to see fruit of faith. But along with that, they have to throw in that the one who is "truly" elect can never fall away. So then those who come under hard times of testing, and start wavering, either have to determine they are elect or not - and then they depend on their selves and what they see happening. They take their eyes off God.

Start to finish, I simply do not see any way around the fact that Calvin and the associated theologies, distort the glory of God. They may seem to shine a bright light on it, but when you open up the contents you see its very dark inside.

 

[Kidron]

-
This is such an easy to understand topic, yet, it seems to always beome one of the most twisted when people try to misunderstand it.
Is the same as OSAS....in that, if you believe that Jesus is your savior, then you understand that He died for you once, you are saved once, and YOU dont do it for yourself.....But rather God does it for you....> ONCE.
What could be more simple then God saving you, by Jesus dying for you, so that you are saved,= and this is none of you.
The issue comes in when people set all that aside and then become determined that they need to be a part of the process, instead of letting God be their savior.
What can you possibly add to the CROSS, after you are saved, that He would not accept before HE SAVED YOU, that now He would accept after HE saved you?
Your works??? = filthy rags, before you were saved and after.
Your sin confessing?.....Why are you confessing sins that Jesus has died for ALREADY = to free you from the eternal judgment due them?
You actually think and believe that once you arrive to Heaven, if you were not "good enough" down here after you are saved, that God is going to judge you after He himself has already been Judged for your sin, in your place, on the Cross?

And regarding... Foreknowledge and Predestination..
Such a simple thing to understand.
First of all, the only thing Predestination has to do with Christianity, is that if you become saved, (born again) then its predetermined by GOD that the outcome is only one thing...= ."to be conformed into the Image of Christ".
Thats it.
Being born again, .. sets into motion a predetermined ending for you.......= you will be continually conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, until this is accomplished after you are dead - raptured.
This is why your bible tells you that.. Philippians 1:6..= . "GOD who began a good work (salvation) IN YOU< will complete it",.... and this is why your bible tells you that..Hebrews 12:2... = "JESUS (and NOT YOU) is the Author and FINISHER of your FAITH", and NOT YOU !!

So, God determined and thereby created an eternal adoption situation as a GIFT, that is called "Justification by Faith".
This is the "Atonement".....its it Jesus becoming your SIN BEARER so that you become HIS Righteousness., and there is a PREDETERMINED outcome following that (as a eternal consequence of being born again) that is defined as the " "Foreknowledge" of God. And He should know what the end result of your Salvation is going to be..., as He is the one who created the situation > Salvation-Redemption.

 

[JLB]

It goes against who God says He is in Scripture. I find that it limits people's view of God and distorts it at the same time. It puts more 'favor' onto the ones "chosen" instead of giving glory and honor to the One choosing.

That's what I find disturbing, that this "theology", completely distorts, and misrepresents the Bible about who God is.

He is merciful and just, even giving His only begotten Son, to die for our sins, so that we can be cleansed of our sins, which enables us to have the relationship with Him restored.


That's how much he wants us, and loves us, and desires a relationship with us, 24-7.

• There is no partiality with God.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11

• “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

God treats everyone the same, and Judges without partiality, according to the deeds of each person.

All this, while taking into account, to whom much is given, much is expected.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

-
This is such an easy to understand topic, yet, it seems to always beome one of the most twisted when people try to misunderstand it.
Is the same as OSAS....in that, if you believe that Jesus is your savior, then you understand that He died for you once, you are saved once, and YOU dont do it for yourself.....But rather God does it for you....> ONCE.
What could be more simple then God saving you, by Jesus dying for you, so that you are saved,= and this is none of you.
The issue comes in when people set all that aside and then become determined that they need to be a part of the process, instead of letting God be their savior.
What can you possibly add to the CROSS, after you are saved, that He would not accept before HE SAVED YOU, that now He would accept after HE saved you?
Your works??? = filthy rags, before you were saved and after.
Your sin confessing?.....Why are you confessing sins that Jesus has died for ALREADY = to free you from the eternal judgment due them?
You actually think and believe that once you arrive to Heaven, if you were not "good enough" down here after you are saved, that God is going to judge you after He himself has already been Judged for your sin, in your place, on the Cross?

And regarding... Foreknowledge and Predestination..
Such a simple thing to understand.
First of all, the only thing Predestination has to do with Christianity, is that if you become saved, (born again) then its predetermined by GOD that the outcome is only one thing...= ."to be conformed into the Image of Christ".
Thats it.
Being born again, .. sets into motion a predetermined ending for you.......= you will be continually conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, until this is accomplished after you are dead - raptured.
This is why your bible tells you that.. Philippians 1:6..= . "GOD who began a good work (salvation) IN YOU< will complete it",.... and this is why your bible tells you that..Hebrews 12:2... = "JESUS (and NOT YOU) is the Author and FINISHER of your FAITH", and NOT YOU !!

So, God determined and thereby created an eternal adoption situation as a GIFT, that is called "Justification by Faith".
This is the "Atonement".....its it Jesus becoming your SIN BEARER so that you become HIS Righteousness., and there is a PREDETERMINED outcome following that (as a eternal consequence of being born again) that is defined as the " "Foreknowledge" of God. And He should know what the end result of your Salvation is going to be..., as He is the one who created the situation > Salvation-Redemption.

hello Kidron, dirtfarmer here

I agree . I have ask, "who has the power of resurrection", which must happen if you can become "unborn from above". My understanding of scripture that only God has the power of resurrection and surely he will not resurrect the "old man" in any one that has been saved. As you have quoted: "Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith"

 

[Nathan]

-
This is such an easy to understand topic, yet, it seems to always beome one of the most twisted when people try to misunderstand it.
Is the same as OSAS....in that, if you believe that Jesus is your savior, then you understand that He died for you once, you are saved once, and YOU dont do it for yourself.....But rather God does it for you....> ONCE.
What could be more simple then God saving you, by Jesus dying for you, so that you are saved,= and this is none of you.
The issue comes in when people set all that aside and then become determined that they need to be a part of the process, instead of letting God be their savior.
What can you possibly add to the CROSS, after you are saved, that He would not accept before HE SAVED YOU, that now he would accept after HE saved you?
Your works? = filthy rags, before you were saved and after.
Your sin confessing?.....Why are you confessing sins that Jesus has died for ALREADY = to free you from the eternal judgment due them?
You actually think and believe that once you arrive to Heaven, if you were not "good enough" down here after you are saved, that God is going to judge you after He himself has already been Judged for your sin, in your place, on the Cross?

And regarding... Foreknowledge and Predestination..
Such a simple thing to understand.
First of all, the only thing Predestination has to do with Christianity, is that if you become saved, (born again) then its predetermined by GOD that the outcome is only one thing...= ."to be conformed into the Image of Christ".
Thats it.
Being born again, .. sets into motion a predetermined ending for you.......= you will be continually conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, until this is accomplished after you are dead - raptured.
This is why your bible tell you that... "God who began a good work (salvation) IN YOU< will complete it",.... and this is why your bible tells you that..... "Jesus (and NOT YOU) is the Author and FINISHER of your FAITH", and NOT YOU !!

So, God determined and thereby created an eternal adoption situation as a GIFT, that is called "Justification by Faith".
This is the "Atonement".....its it Jesus becoming your SIN BEARER so that you become HIS Righteousness., and there is a PREDETERMINED outcome following that (as a eternal consequence of being born again) that is defined as the " "Foreknowledge" of God. And He should know what the end result of your Salvation is going to be..., as He is the one who created the situation > Salvation.

I find this interesting. While I am not desiring to talk about the final state of salvation, I do understand that they are linked.

I find your assessment of predestination to be almost the same as mine. And I too find it simple. Which is why I was perplexed when seemingly 'leaders' of the Christian faith have such a different view of it.

I think it may be the reconciliation of this 'conforming'. Those of the Calvin persuasion(not saying you are) believe that we have no part in it - from what I gather. I see that it was a constant plead from the disciples of Christ that we continually submit to the conforming process, with warnings against those who resist it.

Paul said, as you alluded to;

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I suppose I look at this simplistic. That He began a good work, and His plan is to bring it to completion when Christ returns. I can see how some will say, this means that because He started it, then He will finish it - regardless of our choice. So, that would have to lead into the theory that those who do not have the work being done in them - never had it to begin with. I get why they would put those two pieces together.

In order to do that, you have to throw out the other passages that call for us to not resist this. Of course, the argument could be that the writers are just saying it would be 'easier' if you did not resist. But then you have to throw out the other passages that give the result of resisting - which is falling away. When that happens, in order to stay with the Calvin theories, you have to circle back around to those who 'fall away' were never 'there' to begin with. And so the cycle goes......

The most blaring doctrine error I see is that it disregards, and does not explain correctly, what the position is of the lost. I get why they believe it - to an extent - but still don't to a greater extent. The theory/doctrine has some major gaps that have to be 'jumped'.

What it has done is allowed me to understand where the doctrine of 'eternal security'(traditional Southern Baptist) comes from. Very much a Calvin derived doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

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This is such an easy to understand topic, yet, it seems to always beome one of the most twisted when people try to misunderstand it.
Is the same as OSAS....in that, if you believe that Jesus is your savior, then you understand that He died for you once, you are saved once, and YOU dont do it for yourself.....But rather God does it for you....> ONCE.
What could be more simple then God saving you, by Jesus dying for you, so that you are saved,= and this is none of you.
The issue comes in when people set all that aside and then become determined that they need to be a part of the process, instead of letting God be their savior.
What can you possibly add to the CROSS, after you are saved, that He would not accept before HE SAVED YOU, that now He would accept after HE saved you?
Your works??? = filthy rags, before you were saved and after.
Your sin confessing?.....Why are you confessing sins that Jesus has died for ALREADY = to free you from the eternal judgment due them?
You actually think and believe that once you arrive to Heaven, if you were not "good enough" down here after you are saved, that God is going to judge you after He himself has already been Judged for your sin, in your place, on the Cross?

And regarding... Foreknowledge and Predestination..
Such a simple thing to understand.
First of all, the only thing Predestination has to do with Christianity, is that if you become saved, (born again) then its predetermined by GOD that the outcome is only one thing...= ."to be conformed into the Image of Christ".
Thats it.
Being born again, .. sets into motion a predetermined ending for you.......= you will be continually conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, until this is accomplished after you are dead - raptured.
This is why your bible tells you that.. Philippians 1:6..= . "GOD who began a good work (salvation) IN YOU< will complete it",.... and this is why your bible tells you that..Hebrews 12:2... = "JESUS (and NOT YOU) is the Author and FINISHER of your FAITH", and NOT YOU !!

So, God determined and thereby created an eternal adoption situation as a GIFT, that is called "Justification by Faith".
This is the "Atonement".....its it Jesus becoming your SIN BEARER so that you become HIS Righteousness., and there is a PREDETERMINED outcome following that (as a eternal consequence of being born again) that is defined as the " "Foreknowledge" of God. And He should know what the end result of your Salvation is going to be..., as He is the one who created the situation > Salvation-Redemption.

HI Kidron,
There's so much misinformation going around. Sometimes it makes me dizzy.
Regarding predestination, I agree 100% with Nathan and JLB and Jim Parker and others. The God Calvin presents us with is not the God I know. He changed totally God's character, His mercy and justice, and left us with a God I feel no one could love or serve (but apparently I'm wrong as some do).

And regarding OSAS, eternal life, or whatever you want to call it, I don't know anyone that says you lose salvation by NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH, as you stated up above --- which I highlighted.

Salvation is lost when one stops believing and having saving faith in Jesus - which is what saved them in the first place and what must be present to be in God's presence. Jesus literally saves us.

I believe you're mixing this up with WORKS.
Some say works are not necessary. This is also wrong. Anything we do for God can be called works. I don't know why it's such a bad word lately. Maybe the hyper grace movement has something to do with it.

We ARE called to do good works. Not for salvation, but because Jesus commanded us to and if we want to be followers of His, then we must do what he instructed and commanded.

Do you see the difference?