Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Assuming that was to me ... no.

("After He told him not to?" is not a question.)

So Moses had free will in this instance.

I only bring it up because you brought up Jonah.
Just because God kept on Jonah did not mean He made Jonah go to ninavah any more than He made Moses strike the rock.

Choices on both parts

 

[Nathan]

The only point I see you left out is that stupid tree. God created the Garden and because of His foreknowledge He knew Satan would tempt Eve if the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there and He put it there.

The elephant in the room is Love and so darn many cannot see it! God loves His Creation and He wants that same, unwavering, love in return. People on the Calvinist side and on the Arminian side insist on leaving some of God's expressed characteristics out of the equation in order to reach their positions.

God has revealed Himself to us through the Scriptures and the fallacy I see is the understanding of just what God's Word is. Far to many believe that God's Word can be found in the Bible instead of the Bible is the Word of God and the opposing sides have chosen different selections to prove their points of view, with no attempt to harmonize the scriptures.

Just where I stand.

God put the tree there for a reason.

Ever wonder why He let satan in the Garden? Same reason....

 

[dianegcook]

I haven't read all the post, my grand daughter has me busy lately.lol
I think God can intervene on the elect.
Saul was persecuting Christians, having some stoned.
Until, God intervened on the road of Damascus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you claiming that you are living proof that Salvation cannot be lost?
The point of my story is that was the sort of thing that people claim made them stop believing in God.

According to 'freewill':
If God calls you home while you are still believing, you go to Heaven.
If God calls you home after you stop believing, you go to Hell.
By waiting until someone stopped believing, God CHOSE to lose a person that God could have saved by calling them home while they still believed.
That was my point.

Some Calvinists " stop believing ". I understand that it's because they were never really saved go begin with. So the same could happen to either.

I'm living proof that I remain with God through my will and by my choice. It's so comforting to know that I can be with Him for as long as I wish to.

Yes. If someone stops having faith they are no longer under God's umbrella. They've walked out into the rain of their own free will.

And your calvinistic ideas come through in your last sentences.
God should make me die while I still believe so I could go to heaven?
No thank you. I wouldn't serve a God like that.

I like the God of the Bible I know.
He gave me free choice to serve Him or not.

 

[th1b.taylor]

According to 'freewill':
If God calls you home while you are still believing, you go to Heaven.
If God calls you home after you stop believing, you go to Hell.
By waiting until someone stopped believing, God CHOSE to lose a person that God could have saved by calling them home while they still believed.

I, certainly, understand that was not to me but that is not an analysis of free will. Free will is purely the ability to believe or reject. In theory, your gentleman did both but I tell you he never believed! Belief is caressing a thing, in this case, unseen and holding it until and past death. Your man im this metaphor did not,

 

[GodsGrace]

I haven't read all the post, my grand daughter has me busy lately.lol
I think God can intervene on the elect.
Saul was persecuting Christians, having some stoned.
Until, God intervened on the road of Damascus.

Nice to see you Diane!

 

[Nathan]

Mental image time.

Humans were placed in "boxes" by God. Those boxes surround them on all sides. We see that those boxes are on fire. The only way out of the boxes is up. But the boxes are too tall for humans to get out of.

God knows these boxes will eventually destroy the inhabitants. So God provides a way of escape. He sends His Son to lift out the humans. All the humans have to do is receive this help.

Break:

Calvinist theory says God looks down and says Son, I've predetermined that this one, this other one, and that one are the ones I elect to get this help. You cannot help the others because I have not chosen them.

True or not?

 

[atpollard]

So Moses had free will in this instance.

I only bring it up because you brought up Jonah.
Just because God kept on Jonah did not mean He made Jonah go to ninavah any more than He made Moses strike the rock.

Choices on both parts

Jonah was swallowed by a fish, probably died for several days and was spit out, raised and given a second chance to obey. "God kept on Jonah" sounds more like nagging and this was WAY beyond nagging.

 

[atpollard]

I, certainly, understand that was not to me but that is not an analysis of free will. Free will is purely the ability to believe or reject. In theory, your gentleman did both but I tell you he never believed! Belief is caressing a thing, in this case, unseen and holding it until and past death. Your man im this metaphor did not,

Isn't that the excuse that Calvinists are accused of making ... he never really believed, because if his belief was genuine then it would have persevered to the end? Be careful or they will come after you, too.

 

[atpollard]

Mental image time.

Humans were placed in "boxes" by God. Those boxes surround them on all sides. We see that those boxes are on fire. The only way out of the boxes is up. But the boxes are too tall for humans to get out of.

God knows these boxes will eventually destroy the inhabitants. So God provides a way of escape. He sends His Son to lift out the humans. All the humans have to do is receive this help.

Break:

Calvinist theory says God looks down and says Son, I've predetermined that this one, this other one, and that one are the ones I elect to get this help. You cannot help the others because I have not chosen them.

True or not?

Not. (For me)
That is Double Predestination and was ruled false doctrine by one of those councils that I never bother to study.

There are some cult-like churches that believe that, and at least one Early Church Father (Augustine, I think) that taught that. Most denominations and all mainline denominations reject it.

 

[JLB]

I do not know that "they" exist except in theory.
Can you see the soul of another and know if that person is saved?

The Apostle John says: They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19) so I believe THAT is a fact. Jesus warned me about false Prophets (“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.) in Matthew 7:15-20 and Jesus warned me about false Disciples (“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’) in Matthew 7:21-23, so I believe THOSE are a fact.

These people that are not saved - then saved - then not saved again ... are only hypothetical to me. I only know of my salvation and how God has jealously protected it and prevented me from stumbling beyond his grasp. The shepherd left the 99 and dragged the one back.

So I am forced to accept what I read in the Bible and know for myself.

Yes, lost refers to a condition that mean means no longer in possession of.

The sheep belonged to the Sheperd at one time then became lost, no longer in possession of the Sheperd; as a sinner is lost to God until he repents.

A condition the Calvinist claims can never happen.


JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm living proof that I remain with God through my will and by my choice. It's so comforting to know that I can be with Him for as long as I wish to.

Just curious but would you know the difference?

 

[GodsGrace]

Just curious but would you know the difference?

I know what you mean.
Of course, I could ask you the same question.

Here's how I know...
In reading through the Bible, I hear about free will, I hear about having a choice, I hear about falling away
And how it's important to hold fast to my faith.

Sorry, I can't post scripture right now.

So all that I listed tells me that I have a free will.
And that I could choose to be saved or to be lost.

A just and loving God will give me the opportunity to be saved .

 

[Jim Parker]

Isn't that the excuse that Calvinists are accused of making ... he never really believed, because if his belief was genuine then it would have persevered to the end?

Yes.
It is an exercise in "circular logic."

Bob: "If he believes, he will never fall away."
Pete: "Albert used to believe but he fell away."
Bob: If he fell away, he didn't really believe."
That kind of argument is also known as "Begging the question." It proves nothing other than "Bob" can say the same thing backwards.

But that's not what scripture says.
1 Ti 4:1a Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,
1 Ti 5:15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

You are asking the wrong question, but have already ignored the right question and answer.

My question is simple.

It's not a trick question, but one that I'm asking you to answer, so maybe you could be better understood.

Here is you statement below, from which my question comes from.

atpollard, From Post # 266
Free Will says I can be saved for a while and heaven bound, then 'jump' through God's fingers and end up in Hell. Which theology really paints God as a monster?

How can having freedom, the freedom to choose, somehow paint God as a monster?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jonah was swallowed by a fish, probably died for several days and was spit out, raised and given a second chance to obey. "God kept on Jonah" sounds more like nagging and this was WAY beyond nagging.

Jonah was a type and foreshadow of Jesus, after He went to the cross and descended down into the heart of the earth, which was typified by Jonah being shut up in the belly of the whale.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

This is about purpose.

Jesus's purpose was to dies for the sins of mankind then be raised again on the third day.

Jonah's purpose was to preach to Nineveh.

Jonah was chosen for a purpose.



JLB

 

[dianegcook]

Nice to see you Diane!

Nice to see you also.
Have you been keeping Rollo out of trouble? 2
I hardly have a chance anymore to get on here.
Love and peace to you and yours.

 

[Nathan]

Not. (For me)
That is Double Predestination and was ruled false doctrine by one of those councils that I never bother to study.

There are some cult-like churches that believe that, and at least one Early Church Father (Augustine, I think) that taught that. Most denominations and all mainline denominations reject it.

I have no clue to tell you the truth. I'll have to google double predestination.

So Calvinism says what? That God wants to save all in the boxes, but doesn't?

 

[Nathan]

Ok, I googled it. *edit Here is the quote I found, feel free to correct it atpollard

From wikipedia(if there is a better contrast between the two point me to it)

John Calvin held a view on predestination sometimes referred to as "double predestination." This is the view that God has actively chosen some people for damnation as well as for salvation.[3] It is not the view of any of the Reformed confessions, which speak of God passing over rather than actively reprobating the damned.[4]

So God doesn't tell His Son not to save them, He just "passes over them" burning in the box? What's the difference?

 

[Jim Parker]

This leaves them bitter, so they exercise their freewill and turn their back on God, leaping from his hand, negating all of God's promises and proving the omnipotent Creator to be impotent at keeping His Sheep from straying.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It proves nothing of the sort.
God does not force anyone to love Him. (If that were possible.)

We aren't sheep. We're human beings created in the image and likeness of God. (Sheep were not so created.)
One of God's attributes is His free will. He does whatever He decides to do.
We were created like Him also having free will

That is how freewill of man and an impotent Shepherd paint God as a monster. God COULD have taken that man home to eternity in Heaven, but abandoned him to eternity in Hell because God refused to act.

God didn't refuse to act.
In Jesus birth, hideous death, and resurrection, God did everything necessary for any person, anywhere, at any time to choose to repent, believe the Gospel and receive eternal life.
It is not God who refuses to act, it is man who refuses to accept the gift of eternal life or, for whatever excuse, to reject the eternal life that was given to him.
That doesn't make God a monster; it makes man stupid.

What makes God a monster is the Calvinist teachings of Total depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited atonement and Irresistible Grace by which God has made all of mankind His enemies but, chooses some people who hate Him and are incapable of doing His will to be reprogrammed by the Holy Spirit to love Him and do His will. The rest of humanity, the monster god of Calvin sends to hell for not doing what God made impossible for them to do: love Him and obey Him.

You've got it backwards.

God has given you the gift of salvation; it is in YOU hands. Use it or lose it.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Pick one. or

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


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