Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Then you wouldn't give a rat's behind about Him ...

Romans 3:9-18
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

... this is us without God's call. All are born under the power of sin. That's the point, we are incapable of choosing God.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

What unbeliever can make a free choice to believe a Gospel that their mind is blind to?

To answer this question, even YOU must believe that God has chosen you. You simply believe that God has chosen everyone. So let me ask you, your own question ... In light of Romans 3:9-18 and 2 Corinthians 4:4, what happens to someone if God does not choose them?

According to the Calvinist theory, a person wouldn't have to believe. Either God chose them or not. They don't have to believe because if God wants them to believe they will.

 

[Nathan]

OK. Simpler answers then:

Q. If God does NOT give me the choice to believe, HOW could He possibly hold me responsible for my sins?
A. Because YOU committed the sins.

Q. If HE causes me to be lost because I'm not one of the "chosen" ones, then how could I possibly deserve hell from a JUST God??"
A. God does not CAUSE people to be lost in the same way that God does not CAUSE people to sin. In both cases, God allows it to happen. You deserve Hell because of Ezekiel 18:20 ... that is justice. God OWES no one mercy (that is what makes it Grace).

If He does not give a choice to believe, then there is no knowledge of sin. Knowledge of sin only comes when someone understand what God commands. Sin is not just missing the mark, sin is missing God's mark. If you have no knowledge of God's mark, then you could always think you are hitting the correct mark. Therefore, you would never know you have sinned against God.

According to the Calvinist theory, that would mean a person would know what God wants, yet be unable to attain it because its not granted to them.

 

[Nathan]

Just a note. I had to cut and paste from notepad(hind sight I should have used word) so some of the emphasis and quotation may be off. I'll try to go back through and fix some of it.

 

[Nathan]

Q. If HE causes me to be lost because I'm not one of the "chosen" ones, then how could I possibly deserve hell from a JUST God??"
A. God does not CAUSE people to be lost in the same way that God does not CAUSE people to sin. In both cases, God allows it to happen. You deserve Hell because of Ezekiel 18:20 ... that is justice. God OWES no one mercy (that is what makes it Grace).

God may not make the person sin, as in take their mind/heart and direct their actions - but He does confine ALL under sin. In other words, God does not make a person sin - but He does not allow them to not sin. He doesn't just "allow" people to sin, He makes it impossible for them not to sin.

Romans 3:9 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Galatians 3:22 - But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

"Consigned" - sygkleiō - to shut up together, enclose, to shut up on all sides, shut up completely.

 

[JLB]

Q. If God does NOT give me the choice to believe, HOW could He possibly hold me responsible for my sins?

Everyone in the world has the freedom to choose to believe the Gospel or not.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


JLB

 

[Nathan]

I'm open for discussion on what I studied. Maybe I missed something in there? I try to ask myself every conceivable question, but I don't doubt if there is one I missed.

The way I see it, because faith comes through receiving(an act of will, not of works) then Calvinism destroys that aspect of faith. I also see that it leads to the same kind of belief that the Jews had in Jesus day, and some still do to this day. That because they were the "chosen" people of God - plenty of Scripture to prove it - then God will save them because He never breaks His promise.

I don't doubt there are a lot of good meaning Calvinists out there, who do have faith, but that does not negate the ones who come to believe in the theory that God has chosen them - but stop short of receiving the gift of faith because they mix up being called and what being chosen is all about.

So they will end up at the feast, wearing their own clothes, and God will tell them that He pleaded with them to receive His gift - but they decided that being invited to the feast meant that they already had a place at the table.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't really have a firm opinion on all this, but I do lean towards a more Calvinist outlook. I don't think I'm super-extra-mega special. If Calvin is correct, then I'm just like any other genuine conversion....wretched, but saved by God's grace, not because of any merit on my part.

To be honest, one reason I often (but not always, lol...) lean towards a more Calvinist outlook is because of how I've seen things play out in real life. Some people claim Christ but don't bear any fruit and end up falling away completely, while some of the most (seemingly) unlikely people come to a genuine, saving knowledge of and faith in Christ and then persevere from the moment of conversion onwards.

Plus, historically, American Christianity was much more Calvinist in outlook until the 2nd Great Awakening, when there was a shift in focus from The Holy Spirit's regeneration of sinners more onto the sinner's "decision for Christ." I'm not firmly attached to either approach, but I do find it hard to believe that the spiritually dead have anything in them to effectively respond to The Good News. I think one can look back at massive conversion efforts, like the Billy Graham Crusades and such, and see that lots of people can make a "decision for Christ" based on emotional factors--say something inspiring, put on appropriate music, good lighting, plus whatever they have going on in their person lives--but this "decision for Christ" rarely results in a lasting change in belief, outlook, behavior, etc. ((not trying to criticize BIlly Graham, either; I think he's a quality man of God...)).

Sometimes, I think one reason American Christians are so firmly attached to Arminianism has more to do with our secular, American culture and values than with Scripture or even tradition. Again, I'm not trying to be critical. I just think that we're raised with this idea that everyone gets a "fair shot" and we're individualistic and big into this idea that each person is absolutely responsible for his/her life and everything (more so than a lot of other affluent, developed nations...), and I think our American values spill over into the church and how we approach The Lord ((or can, anyway...).

Personally, like I said, I lean more towards a Calvinist outlook because of my own experience of coming to believe upon Christ and what I've observed with other believers. I pray for those who are out there, in darkness, and I share bits and pieces of my (developing) Christian worldview when appropriate, hoping God will use my prayers+occasional conversations to further His work in peoples' lives. At the same time, I really do think salvation is more about God's work in His children's lives than anything we--believers, His children, objects of His agape love--do in our own strength.

 

[Nathan]

Well, I can say that I definitely do not have an Arminianism view. They are way too left(or right) of my position. Probably just as far the opposite side as Calvinism is on one side of my position.

I fully believe that election and perseverance is a God ordained, and worked, theology. I just can't see where someone, who truly comes to Christ, has ever done so without wanting to. Which, I guess would be part of the "irresistible draw" of Calvinism. But if that's the case, then the people I know, who have 'felt this' and then turned away from it are either lying or completely crazy. If Calvinism were true, I don't see how God would partially call to someone, then when they came close, say "no, I did not choose you".

We have to understand that "many are called, but few are chosen". So if He does call many, but only chooses a few, then He is indeed turning people away. There is no way to get around that(that I can see) with Calvinism.

You cant say the ones "not chosen" were not called. Maybe some were not? But we know some were. So, according to Calvin, irresistible draw would not let the ones called be turned away.

So you have a dichotomy(extreme conflict) with turning people away and irresistible draw. Calvinism contradicts itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I can say that I definitely do not have an Arminianism view. They are way too left(or right) of my position. Probably just as far the opposite side as Calvinism is on one side of my position.

I fully believe that election and perseverance is a God ordained, and worked, theology. I just can't see where someone, who truly comes to Christ, has ever done so without wanting to. Which, I guess would be part of the "irresistible draw" of Calvinism. But if that's the case, then the people I know, who have 'felt this' and then turned away from it are either lying or completely crazy. If Calvinism were true, I don't see how God would partially call to someone, then when they came close, say "no, I did not choose you".

We have to understand that "many are called, but few are chosen". So if He does call many, but only chooses a few, then He is indeed turning people away. There is no way to get around that(that I can see) with Calvinism.

You cant say the ones "not chosen" were not called. Maybe some were not? But we know some were. So, according to Calvin, irresistible draw would not let the ones called be turned away.

So you have a dichotomy(extreme conflict) with turning people away and irresistible draw. Calvinism contradicts itself.

There you go Nathan...
Making a lot of sense.
:nod

 

[Nathan]

Here is another word to study on.

Romans 1:1-7
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Called" - klētos - called, invited (to a banquet); divinely selected and appointed

Matthew 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Same word used.

 

[Nathan]

There you go Nathan...
Making a lot of sense.
:nod

Sometimes it feels like this

 

[Nathan]

I don't want to

But.......How does Calvinism explain this?

Romans 8:30 - And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Matthew 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Same word used. If many are called, how can only a few be chosen - especially if they were 'predestined'(in the Calvinist point of view)?

 

[Christ_empowered]

many people will hear The Good News. Only the elect will respond, and they can only respond because they were chosen before the world was formed.

 

[Nathan]

many people will hear The Good News. Only the elect will respond, and they can only respond because they were chosen before the world was formed.

Ok. So then when it says that God 'calls' many, does He only call the elect?

 

[Christ_empowered]

ok....I"m not an expert, but The Gospel will result in salvation for God's elect. Other people will hear the call (I wanna say Calvinists call it the "outward call" or something, but I could very well be wrong...), but it rolls right off of them. There are, of course, false conversions (tares, wolves in sheep's clothing, etc.).

The Holy Spirit regenerates God's chosen people at the appropriate time. I think that's how it works. So, someone may be part of the elect but not get genuinely saved for some time, because its really all about God's work in that person's spirit+life.

I dunno. I learn towards this perspective because I think it explains a lot of what goes on in the church and in the world, but I'm --not-- any kinda expert or die hard devotee. I'm pretty much rehashing RC Sproul and (I think...) old school JI Packer, as best I can.

 

[atpollard]

How can having freedom, somehow paint God as a monster?

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Galatians 5:1

... Or else I will STRIP YOU OF THE GRACE YOU HAD RECEIVED AND CAST YOU INTO ETERNAL TORMENT! (added by Arminian Freewill Theology).

Traditional Calvinists believe the chosen/elect WILL be given the strength through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us to Persevere to the end.
We press on and the H.S. gives us a kick to keep us moving from time to time.

Like Jonah, we will arrive at Nineveh ... one way or another. It is the will of God!

 

[Nathan]

ok....I"m not an expert, but The Gospel will result in salvation for God's elect. Other people will hear the call (I wanna say Calvinists call it the "outward call" or something, but I could very well be wrong...), but it rolls right off of them. There are, of course, false conversions (tares, wolves in sheep's clothing, etc.).

The Holy Spirit regenerates God's chosen people at the appropriate time. I think that's how it works. So, someone may be part of the elect but not get genuinely saved for some time, because its really all about God's work in that person's spirit+life.

I dunno. I learn towards this perspective because I think it explains a lot of what goes on in the church and in the world, but I'm --not-- any kinda expert or die hard devotee. I'm pretty much rehashing RC Sproul and (I think...) old school JI Packer, as best I can.

Thanks for your thoughts. It has always interested me to see what others think.

Whats even more interesting is how close some thoughts are, yet can 'seem' so far apart.

I too think that the Gospel will result in salvation for God's elect. And how some people will hear the call, but not be chosen.

The part that throws me is the Calvinist thought that the call of God will effect the elect only because He chose it to. Which would mean that He chose the others to not be effected by the call. Some don't have a problem with God choosing to send people to hell. I suppose I do, but only because I read so many other passages that say He doesn't want them to go there.

So if God is powerful enough to call and bring in the elect, but then not powerful enough to keep people from hell, then it makes a conflict I cannot see a resolution for - except outside of the Bible.

 

[Nathan]

... Or else I will STRIP YOU OF THE GRACE YOU HAD RECEIVED AND CAST YOU INTO ETERNAL TORMENT! (added by Arminian Freewill Theology).

Traditional Calvinists believe the chosen/elect WILL be given the strength through the Holy Spirit dwelling in us to Persevere to the end.
We press on and the H.S. gives us a kick to keep us moving from time to time.

Like Jonah, we will arrive at Nineveh ... one way or another. It is the will of God!

So those that opposed God's will - they were made to by God? So God wanted them to do one thing, but then wanted them not to do it? 2

 

[atpollard]

According to the Calvinist theory, a person wouldn't have to believe. Either God chose them or not. They don't have to believe because if God wants them to believe they will.

Please provide a reference in support of this statement.
I am a Calvinist and can invite you to a Calvinist website if you care to take a pole ... that is not what any of us believe.

 

[atpollard]

If He does not give a choice to believe, then there is no knowledge of sin. Knowledge of sin only comes when someone understand what God commands. Sin is not just missing the mark, sin is missing God's mark. If you have no knowledge of God's mark, then you could always think you are hitting the correct mark. Therefore, you would never know you have sinned against God.

According to the Calvinist theory, that would mean a person would know what God wants, yet be unable to attain it because its not granted to them.

Same as above, please provide a reference.
I am a Calvinist and I do not believe this.