Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[atpollard]

Let me try a completely different approach to this topic. A common theme is that God is not good/just if ... then insert something about sin and forgiveness and free will. Let me make a statement and request that anyone who wishes refute it from scripture:

God has every right to save no one and send each and every human being to Hell for the sins they have committed, and God would still be Holy, Just and Good in doing so.

Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURE.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Let me try a completely different approach to this topic. A common theme is that God is not good/just if ... then insert something about sin and forgiveness and free will. Let me make a statement and request that anyone who wishes refute it from scripture:

God has every right to save no one and send each and every human being to Hell for the sins they have committed, and God would still be Holy, Just and Good in doing so.

Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURE.

hello atpollard, dirtfarmer here

You correct. Thank goodness for God's grace.

There is no scripture to prove "truth" wrong.

 

[Jim Parker]

2 Thesselonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Scripture says otherwise.

Just and afterthought:

Jos 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve,
whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River,
or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell;
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Dueling proof text silliness)

iakov the fool

 

[civilwarbuff]

Just and afterthought:

Jos 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve,
whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River,
or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell;
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Dueling proof text silliness)

iakov the fool

One of my favorite scriptures......

 

[atpollard]

Just and afterthought:

Jos 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve,
whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River,
or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell;
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

(Dueling proof text silliness)

iakov the fool

First, I'm glad you took my original post in good humor. It was intended as a light poke at your statement rather than a scriptural club to bludgeon your beliefs. Frankly, the difference between the Wesleyan Arminianism that I first learned and the Traditional Calvinism that I later embraced really is a hair's breath (from the point of getting to the starting line of the race).

For the text itself, it always seemed a large fundamental difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant that one can clearly choose to DO or NOT DO (as required by the Law), but it may not be within the power of man to choose to BELIEVE without some outside help. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

 

[Jim Parker]

First, I'm glad you took my original post in good humor. It was intended as a light poke at your statement rather than a scriptural club to bludgeon your beliefs. Frankly, the difference between the Wesleyan Arminianism that I first learned and the Traditional Calvinism that I later embraced really is a hair's breath (from the point of getting to the starting line of the race).

For the text itself, it always seemed a large fundamental difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant that one can clearly choose to DO or NOT DO (as required by the Law), but it may not be within the power of man to choose to BELIEVE without some outside help. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yeah, ... 2 Cor 4:4 does not eliminate the choice of the individual to reject the truth of the Gospel in the manner Paul describes at Romans 1.

Rom 1:19-21 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.

They knew God but did not honor Him as God.
That's a choice they made.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Let me try a completely different approach to this topic. A common theme is that God is not good/just if ... then insert something about sin and forgiveness and free will. Let me make a statement and request that anyone who wishes refute it from scripture:

God has every right to save no one and send each and every human being to Hell for the sins they have committed, and God would still be Holy, Just and Good in doing so.

Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURE.

That's a red herring.
The issue is not about what God "has every right to do."
The issue is God's character and how He deals with His creation.
With respect to God's character and dealings with man:
(1) God is Love. (1 John 4:8, 16)
(2) God acts toward mankind in love. (1 Cor 13: 4-8a)
(3) God wants all of mankind to be saved. (2Pe 3:9)
(4) God has acted to make salvation available to all of mankind. (John 3:15-17)
(5) God forgives anyone who will confess. (1 John 1:9)
(6) God is merciful. (look up; "mercy" and "merciful" in your Bible software. It's all through the scriptures.)

So, what "God has every right to do" has absolutely nothing to do with WHAT He does.

What he does is love all mankind. (John 3:16)

 

[atpollard]

That's a red herring.
The issue is not about what God "has every right to do."

Perhaps, but an awful lot of posts in this topic involve some sort of appeal to 'right' or 'fair' or 'just' (often preceded by "that's not") rather than any appeal to scripture stating that is what the Bible says IS TRUE.

However, since a core of the belief in 'Predestination and Election' is a "red herring", I guess I have nothing to offer here. Have fun debating the Arminian view of Calvinism.

 

[Nathan]

Let me try a completely different approach to this topic. A common theme is that God is not good/just if ... then insert something about sin and forgiveness and free will. Let me make a statement and request that anyone who wishes refute it from scripture:

God has every right to save no one and send each and every human being to Hell for the sins they have committed, and God would still be Holy, Just and Good in doing so.

Prove me wrong with SCRIPTURE.

Actually, that statement can be disproven through Scripture. I'll do so first thing in the morning.

Tonight I must clean the fish my boys caught this evening. Nothing like a good fresh fish fry.

(Except a holy and just God of course :wink)

 

[Nathan]

Perhaps, but an awful lot of posts in this topic involve some sort of appeal to 'right' or 'fair' or 'just' (often preceded by "that's not") rather than any appeal to scripture stating that is what the Bible says IS TRUE.

However, since a core of the belief in 'Predestination and Election' is a "red herring", I guess I have nothing to offer here. Have fun debating the Arminian view of Calvinism.

The reason is God is just, so anything that contradicts Him being so must be brought up.

I have no idea of the red herring. I've heard of them before, but chose to stay away from that argument.

I do hope you'll stay long enough to help me understand why you do believe such things. It would be nice if you let me know what parts of my posts go against who God is.

I'm not aware of the Armenian theology dealing with Gods choice to not pass over some sinners. So my goal, from the beginning, is to understand why Calvin followers think such things. As I have said before, the Armenian theology seems to have its flaws as well, they just don't deal with the topic of the thread - that I know of?

 

[JLB]

That's a red herring.
The issue is not about what God "has every right to do."
The issue is God's character and how He deals with His creation.
With respect to God's character and dealings with man:
(1) God is Love. (1 John 4:8, 16)
(2) God acts toward mankind in love. (1 Cor 13: 4-8a)
(3) God wants all of mankind to be saved. (2Pe 3:9)
(4) God has acted to make salvation available to all of mankind. (John 3:15-17)
(5) God forgives anyone who will confess. (1 John 1:9)
(6) God is merciful. (look up; "mercy" and "merciful" in your Bible software. It's all through the scriptures.)

So, what "God has every right to do" has absolutely nothing to do with WHAT He does.

What he does is love all mankind. (John 3:16)

(7) For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:11

God is just and fair in how He deals with everyone.
God loves everyone.
God desires all men to come to repentance so that none perish.
God judges fairly according to each one's deeds.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.

JLB

 

[atpollard]

I'm not aware of the Armenian theology dealing with Gods choice to not pass over some sinners. So my goal, from the beginning, is to understand why Calvin followers think such things. As I have said before, the Armenian theology seems to have its flaws as well, they just don't deal with the topic of the thread - that I know of?

The position of Arminian Theology on 'Predestination and Election' is that all are predestined and elected to choose/not choose on their own. In other words, there is no Predestination or Election as these terms are traditionally understood. In general, only the view that there is no predestination or election is given serious consideration on this topic. Any other point of view (like Reformed Theology that actually talks about Predestination and Election) is shouted down.

I tried to point you in the direction of why some are not saved from a Reformed Theology perspective, but it has been rejected as a "red herring" (something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting). The consensus is that Reformed Theology is only 'misleading and distracting' in a discussion on Presestination and Election.

The ground here is too hard to even drill into to try and plant a seed of Reformed Theology thought. You are asking Arminians (100% free will) for answers on Reformed (Election) questions.

 

[atpollard]

The reason is God is just, so anything that contradicts Him being so must be brought up.

Is it unjust for God to send a sinner to hell?

 

[JLB]

Is it unjust for God to send a sinner to hell?

No

Can a believer return to being a sinner?


JLB

 

[atpollard]

No

Can a believer return to being a sinner?


JLB

No.
[Edit: Too strong ... Change to "probably not".]

Edit 2: Since you want to play ...
Who is a sinner?

 

[civilwarbuff]

No

Can a believer return to being a sinner?


JLB

If you are asking can a believer sin: Absolutely.....by extension anyone who commits a sin is a sinner. I think what you are trying to ask in a roundabout way is can a believer become an unbeliever....Something that has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum with not one single position being changed.

 

[JLB]

No.
[Edit: Too strong ... Change to "probably not".]

Edit 2: Since you want to play ...
Who is a sinner?

My question was: Can a believer return to being a sinner?

You answered my question, with the understanding that the question you were answering is: Can a believer return to being a sinner?


A believer: someone who believes in Jesus Christ. A brother in Christ.


Obviously, that is what you understood, since you answered the question, with a no.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Remember, that the scripture states that Jesus is separate from sinners.

A sinner is a person who is lost, separated from Christ; without God: dead to God


For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26

Separate - Strong's G5563 - chōrizō

to separate, divide, part, put asunder, to separate one's self from, to depart

1. to leave a husband or wife
   
   1. of divorce
      
2. to depart, go away
   

The way we are reconciled to God is, we are cleansed from our sins.

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:13


When we, like one of His sheep, become lost, having wandered from the truth, we are in need of being "turned back" just as a sinner needs to repent, and turn to God.

The Holy Spirit says, that some will listen to doctrines of demons, and in doing so they will depart from the faith: depart from the truth.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[JLB]

by extension anyone who commits a sin is a sinner.

A sinner is someone who is separate from Christ.

A saint is a person who has repented and believed the Gospel, who has their sins washed away, and is joined to the Lord.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

When a saint has been warned over and over about living in sin and been given time to repent, but refuses to confess their sin and be forgiven and healed, then the Lord will separate Himself from them, and give them over to their lust, and even to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, in hopes that they while suffering a slow and painful death death, they will repent before they die.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Corinthians 5:1-12




JLB

 

[JLB]

If you are asking can a believer sin: Absolutely.....by extension anyone who commits a sin is a sinner.

A sinner is someone who practices sin.

If you put a bandage on someone, that doesn't make you a doctor.

A doctor is someone who practices medicine.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

JLB, you are one of the few, if not the first I have met(there may have been others, but my memory is not good), that understands believers are not sinners.

I once got into a long discussion with a good friend when I had realized I am not a sinner but a saint. It was interesting because he got quite upset over it.

I have thought before, even though it might do more harm than good(so I chose not to do it), that I would have a T shirt made that says "I'm not a sinner" on the front and "ask me why" on the back.

I was younger then, and found freedom in this fact, but realized to play on words might not be the best testimony - even if it is truth.