Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[reba]

Well, this is interesting. I guess all I can say is I absolutely, 100%, do not believe man is equal to God in anything. I've been trying to squelch that idea on another thread going in this forum......

Completely believe this and figured this is more of what you were meaning..

thank you for the clarification .

 

[reba]

So, all I was saying that no one makes God love us. And no one makes us love Him. We do it from our own choice. We see this because of the type of love it is. agapaō is love that cannot be forced. So if God made us love him, then it could not be said that we agapaō Him.

Again the toddler chooses to love his parents?

 

[Nathan]

Again the toddler chooses to love his parents?

I believe so. I know I did not make my kids love me. lol I do make them respect me though..... Some say its because of fear.......

 

[Chopper]

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15

...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

I answered my question as to man's freewill to choose, because God does not make the choice to serve Him for us.

That choice is left up to us.


Maybe you could share some scriptures that teach us man has no freewill to choose.

• Esau made his choice to trade his inheritance for a bowl of food.

... lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. Hebrews 12:16

• Pharaoh chose to be stubborn and harden his heart.

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said. Exodus 8:15

But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32

• We are told to make the choice not to harden our hearts, because of our salvation.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
Hebrews 3:12-15


Each of us has the ability to choose whether to heed what the Lord says, and be blessed, or disregard what the Lord says, and be cursed.

• The Lord gave the children of Israel the same choice as He gave the Pharaoh.

and said, “If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.” Exodus 15:26




JLB

All men can choose their future. They have free will to choose God's way or the world that surrounds them.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Then you believe that God controls our every action?

No, not every action.

I think that verse you quoted;(I'm adding the one before it)

Romans 12:1-2
I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Is specifically stating that we need to do something - not just "wait" for it to happen - or expect something to make it happen. Paul uses a very strong word;

"appeal" - parakaleō - it has the sense of begging and pleading, in an encouraging way.

He says to "present" - paristēmi - it is an action word that tells the person to bring near, or place beside. Its an action taken by the "brothers" mentioned.

As far as the "will" of God, when we present ourselves before God we are choosing Him over the world. We already chose Him over satan for the truth of salvation, now Paul entreats us to continue that choosing in presenting our bodies.

When we present ourselves, by choice, we receive the transforming power of God to renew our mind. Then, we can test things in this world and see if they are of God. We can test to see if it is truly good, truly acceptable, and truly perfect. If whatever we are testing are of those things, then we know its the will of God.

If, God imposed His will on us, there would be no need for us to test or discern. He would tell us what is good, acceptable, and perfect.

Paul was never shy about words. If God imposed His will, then Paul could have easily said "You are not going to be conformed to this world, you will be transformed by the renewal of your mind, so that you will know that God's will is good, acceptable, and perfect". But.....as we know......that is not what Paul said - not even close to it.

Does this mean we "do" anything? I can see the thoughts of some leading to "righteousness by works" or "grace by works". No, that's not the case. ALL we do is "present" ourselves. That is, willfully come to God for the transformation process. He takes over from there.

 

[Chopper]

It seemed to me that you were saying that we are in charge in a negative way.

Not really, free will gives us a choice. we can either obey God and His Commands, or obey our flesh. God doesn't step in and change our choice, usually.

 

[Chopper]

Ok. Serious question here then. Is God controlling everything I type right now? Better yet, does God control a mans action when he goes into a bar to drink?

Lets say God can do anything that He wants to do, there are no restrictions. BUT, if man decides to get drunk inside a bar, God has the option to change the mind of that person, or just leave that person to his/her free will choice.

 

[JLB]

All men can choose their future. They have free will to choose God's way or the world that surrounds them.

Yes sir, old friend.


I'm glad we can agree on this.




JLB

 

[Nathan]

John 7:16-17
So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

"will"(as it relates to "anyone's") - thelō - to have in mind, to intend, be resolve, determined, to purpose.

"will"(as it relates to "God's") - thelēma - what one wishes or has determined shall be done.

"will"(as it relates to "he") - ginōskō - to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, to understand.

I'll admit, I really expected both "will" to be the same word, and the third to be different. I was surprised to see they are different, but amazed at the implications.

Jesus is stating that when a person intends, purposefully determines, to do what God has predetermined, then that person would know, come to understand, whether Jesus was speaking from God or Himself. Very interesting.

There is so much information in that one passage. Jesus acknowledging man has a will. Jesus stating that man can choose to believe God and His will. But also Jesus foretelling that God's will is predetermined. And then letting them know that God's will is understandable.

Later on we know He says that God has to choose us first. So we have to keep that in mind. But that does not negate what Jesus talks about in reference to using our will to know God's will.

 

[Papa Zoom]

How would you define "sovereign"? I looked it up in the KJV of the Bible so I could see what it means and they don't use the word. It seems to be a word used by the NIV, NLT, and NET the most. There are other versions that use it, including the ESV, but it only occurs at most 3 times in some and only once in others.

When I cross reference those versus it does occur in, it means "master" having the "supreme being" connotation. Other places it is combined with the word "O Lord". And when it is used a lot in the other versions it is translated as "holy" in the KJV and others.

So I guess I am wondering how sovereignty negates free will? I cannot see where the word sovereign means denial of others free will?

I am just curious if there is something else I can look to in order to understand why people think the word sovereign means that is all.

That is a good question. To me it means that nothing can thwart the plans of God. He is in full control of everything. Nothing passes His Sovereign Will. If He forbids it, it cannot happen. If He permits it, it can. Basically, no one can force their will over God's will unless He permits it. All things are under God's rule and control. Even our free will. Here are some links that may be helpful.

http://www.desiringgod.org/topics/the-sovereignty-of-god
http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/ A book online. Here it is free on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/Sovereignt...1489772970&sr=1-3&keywords=Sovereignty+Of+God
https://smile.amazon.com/Does-Contr...1489772920&sr=1-2&keywords=Sovereignty+Of+God Yeah! A free book!

 

[Papa Zoom]

Hi PZ

I sure hope it's close to St. Patrick's Day!!

I think the subject of free will is very important.
We agree that God is God, but HOW we understand Him has a lot to do with how we feel ABOUT Him.

For instance, if we don't have free will ---
HOW could we possibly be held responsible for our sins?

And yet the entire N.T. tells us to avoid sin. HOW do we avoid sin, if we don't have free will ???

If it's God who decides, then I absolve myself of all responsibility !

I see God's will in two ways: His Sovereign Will which will come to pass. His Permissive Will which allows free will to operate.

 

[Nathan]

I see God's will in two ways: His Sovereign Will which will come to pass. His Permissive Will which allows free will to operate.

Interesting. I personally have never thought of God having more than one will. Is there any particular passages that lead you to this distinction, or is it just a combination of the whole Bible that seems to show it?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Scripture support for God's Sovereignty:

Job 42 1Then Job answered the LORD and said, 2"I knowt hat You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. 3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."…

More to come as I spot em

 

[Papa Zoom]

Interesting. I personally have never thought of God having more than one will. Is there any particular passages that lead you to this distinction, or is it just a combination of the whole Bible that seems to show it?

As a father of two, there were things that I didn't allow in the home. ( I realize I couldn't stop them actually but...) and there were things where I allowed for freedom of choice. Both attitudes fell under my overall authority as the dad.

God's permissive will falls under his Sovereignty. It can happen because he allows it. He permits it. I use that category (permissive will) for my own sake. When God permits something, it goes to show He's still in control. He's permitting things but He could also not permit those things. By his sovereign power He allows it.

 

[JLB]

Later on we know He says that God has to choose us first.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Could you post the scripture that later on says that God must choose us first?


JLB

 

[Papa Zoom]

Isaiah 14: …26"This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations. 27"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

 

[JLB]

Isaiah 14: …26"This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations. 27"For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

His will is for the knowledge of the glory of the earth to cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

Which would also be His will being done on earth as it is in heaven. (From the Lord's Prayer)

This will of His is found in the first words spoken to mankind.

Be fruitful and multiply, subdue the earth and have dominion. Genesis 1:26

God's intent was to multiply the image and likeness of God.


The Gospel is the continuation of God's original intent for mankind.


JLB

 

[Nathan]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Could you post the scripture that later on says that God must choose us first?


JLB

Most certainly.

1 John 4:19
We love because He first loved us.

As it is written; ()

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We were dead. Dead people cannot choose things, much less choose God. God loved us, made us alive through faith, faith gives us the ability to choose Him. So, He chooses us first, then we get to choose Him.

John 6:64-70
But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”

Interesting to me. Jesus first says no one can come to Him unless the Father grants it, then Jesus says He chose them - all twelve. Choosing them even though He foreknew that one would betray Him.

So, we would have to either say Judas was predestined to betray him, or God knew Judas would betray Jesus, and so God used Him in that role.

Sorry, JLB, that third passage was to compliment the question you asked, and then it lead into the thought about Judas.

 

[JLB]

Sorry, JLB, that third passage was to compliment the question you asked, and then it lead into the thought about Judas.

Please understand that choosing the twelve is choosing according to purpose and not choosing according to salvation.

I have seen many use verses in the New Testament that relate to predestination according to purpose, while teaching that God is predestinating according to salvation.

Judas was appointed to reign and rule with Christ along with the others.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


JLB

 

[Nathan]

Please understand that choosing the twelve is choosing according to purpose and not choosing according to salvation.

I have seen many use verses in the New Testament that relate to predestination according to purpose, while teaching that God is predestinating according to salvation.

Judas was appointed to reign and rule with Christ along with the others.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


JLB

I do understand. I see it as a box inside a box. God's overall plan is for salvation, and inside that plan He has different purposes.

I fully believe that Judas will not be on one of the thrones. In the verse you quoted above, Jesus clearly states that "those who have followed Me" will sit on the thrones. Judas quit following Jesus that night he decided(chose) to betray Him.

John 13:21-27
After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly,truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus' side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”

"betray" - paradidōmi - to deliver up treacherously

A follower cannot deliver up, or give over, someone and then continue to follow them.

"entered" - eiserchomai - satan taking possession of.

A person can only be possessed by God or satan. Not both.

John 13:14-18
If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them. I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’

Even though He chose the twelve, we see back in chapter 6, He knew one would turn away from following Him. He still chose Judas, but Judas chose to turn away - therefor fulfilling the Scripture.

God did not predestine Judas to do such, but knew he would and used it in His plan.