Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

Yes. This might be a good idea.

I believe Nathan is using the concept that only God is righteous in the sense of the meaning of the word as:

RIGHTEOUSNESS
The state of being perfect and without sin.
Or...

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Righteousness
We know that God is righteous but what does this word mean? It certainly means that there is a right-ness in God. All that He is and all that he does is right and unlike humans, He is righteous in all He says as that is one of His attributes. The Old Testament says that God is righteous. In Psalm 7:11a we read “God is a righteous judge.” The word righteous in the Hebrew is “tsaddiy” which means just, lawful, and correct. The word righteous in the New Testament comes from the Greek word “dikaios” which means observing divine laws or upright, faultless, innocent, and guiltless. These are all descriptive of God Himself and no human has any of these attributes inherent in themselves even though we can do things that are upright and observe the divine laws like the Ten Commandments while not being able to obey them all, but how can fallen creatures like us be righteous?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christ...eousness-mean-in-the-bible-a-christian-study/

It is also used this way but this is not the Christian meaning:

RIGHTEOUS
Pronunciation (US):

Dictionary entry overview: What does righteous mean?

• RIGHTEOUS (adjective)
The adjective RIGHTEOUS has 2 senses:

1. characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice
2. morally justified

Familiarity information: RIGHTEOUS used as an adjective is rare.


Dictionary entry details


righteous [BACK TO TOP]


Meaning:

Characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice

Context example:

the...prayer of a righteous man availeth much

Similar:

good; just; upright (of moral excellence)

sound (free from moral defect)



Also:

good (morally admirable)

clean-handed; guiltless; innocent (free from evil or guilt)

just (used especially of what is legally or ethically right or proper or fitting)

moral (concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles)

virtuous (morally excellent)

worthy (having worth or merit or value; being honorable or admirable)

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

So this is how I understand it:

God IS righteousness. He is perfect and without sin.
Psalm 7:9
John 17:25

He acts righteously.
Jeremiah 9:24

He judges righteously.
Psalm 98:9

His commandments are righteous.
Romans 7:12

His righteousness edures forever.
Psalm 112:3
(from Zondervan Study Bible NIV)


WE are not righteous in ourselves.
Romans 3:10

We are MADE righteous (right with God) through God.
Romans 4:11

So only God is righteous, meaning perfect and sinless.
But man could also be righteous, meaning right with God.

Comment?

I know this is directed to Parker, but I wanted to make a small comment.

I think you have it correct. The issue some have is thinking man can do some 'kind' of righteous things. The problem is, although they seem righteous, anything outside of Christ is not true righteousness.

So, man cannot even be righteous in being "right with God", unless God first gives that ability - through Christ.

Lots of people think that they come to Christ in a "right" way, "giving" Him their life.

That's the exact opposite of faith. God comes to us and gives us Christ life. Then, we can, only at that moment, do the "right thing" and accept it by faith.

 

[Nathan]

So, we can tie all of this back into the topic by asking a question.

Does God want all or some humans to be righteous?

Predestination and election, in the sense of saying only some are called for eternal life, would have to be on the side of God only wanting some humans to be righteous.

Predestination and election, in the sense of God fulfilling His purposes in this time(before eternity), would have to be on the side of God wanting all humans to be righteous.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know this is directed to Parker, but I wanted to make a small comment.

I think you have it correct. The issue some have is thinking man can do some 'kind' of righteous things. The problem is, although they seem righteous, anything outside of Christ is not true righteousness.

So, man cannot even be righteous in being "right with God", unless God first gives that ability - through Christ.

Lots of people think that they come to Christ in a "right" way, "giving" Him their life.

That's the exact opposite of faith. God comes to us and gives us Christ life. Then, we can, only at that moment, do the "right thing" and accept it by faith.

If many think what you say above, then it's good that it was explained.
We do give Christ our life but there is no right way to come to Christ. You give him your life, that's it.

What does being right with God mean?
Having a correct relationship with Him.
Restoring a relationship that was lost due to sin.
Walking with Him in our garden.
Depending on Him.
Loving Him and being thankful.

And more.

 

[Nathan]

If many think what you say above, then it's good that it was explained.
We do give Christ our life but there is no right way to come to Christ. You give him your life, that's it.

What does being right with God mean?
Having a correct relationship with Him.
Restoring a relationship that was lost due to sin.
Walking with Him in our garden.
Depending on Him.
Loving Him and being thankful.

And more.

Right, but the whole of the matter is you can't even give Him your life until He gives you His.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, we can tie all of this back into the topic by asking a question.

Does God want all or some humans to be righteous?

Predestination and election, in the sense of saying only some are called for eternal life, would have to be on the side of God only wanting some humans to be righteous.

Predestination and election, in the sense of God fulfilling His purposes in this time(before eternity), would have to be on the side of God wanting all humans to be righteous.

Correct.
God's wishes that all men be righteous through Him, but not all men will choose to be, since not all men choose to follow their maker.

And if we do not follow God and continue in that walk, we will have NO righteousness in our human nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right, but the whole of the matter is you can't even give Him your life until He gives you His.

Do you mean that God seeks us first?
If not this, then explain.

 

[Nathan]

Do you mean that God seeks us first?
If not this, then explain.

:yes

 

[atpollard]

Q. What is your only comfort in life and in death?

A. That I am not my own,1
but belong—
body and soul,
in life and in death—2
to my faithful Savior,
Jesus Christ.3

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,4
and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.5
He also watches over me in such a way6
that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven;7
in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.8
Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life9
and makes me whole-heartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.10

[1] 1 Cor. 6:19-20; [2] Rom. 14:7-9; [3] 1 Cor. 3:23; Titus 2:14; [4] 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:2; [5] John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 3:1-11; [6] John 6:39-40; 10:27-30; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 Pet. 1:5; [7] Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18; [8] Rom. 8:28; [9] Rom. 8:15-16; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14; [10] Rom. 8:1-17


Q. What must you know to live and die in the joy of this comfort?

A. Three things:
first, how great my sin
and misery are;1
second, how I am set free
from all my sins
and misery;2
third, how I am to thank
God for such
deliverance.3

[1] Rom. 3:9-10; 1 John 1:10; [2] John 17:3; Acts 4:12; 10:43; [3] Matt. 5:16; Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:8-10; 2 Tim. 2:15; 1 Pet. 2:9-10

 

[Nathan]

Q. What is your only comfort in life and in death?

A. That I am not my own,1
but belong—
body and soul,
in life and in death—2
to my faithful Savior,
Jesus Christ.3

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,4
and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.5
He also watches over me in such a way6
that not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my Father in heaven;7
in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.8
Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life9
and makes me whole-heartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him.10

[1] 1 Cor. 6:19-20; [2] Rom. 14:7-9; [3] 1 Cor. 3:23; Titus 2:14; [4] 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:2; [5] John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 3:1-11; [6] John 6:39-40; 10:27-30; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 Pet. 1:5; [7] Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18; [8] Rom. 8:28; [9] Rom. 8:15-16; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14; [10] Rom. 8:1-17


Q. What must you know to live and die in the joy of this comfort?

A. Three things:
first, how great my sin
and misery are;1
second, how I am set free
from all my sins
and misery;2
third, how I am to thank
God for such
deliverance.3

[1] Rom. 3:9-10; 1 John 1:10; [2] John 17:3; Acts 4:12; 10:43; [3] Matt. 5:16; Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:8-10; 2 Tim. 2:15; 1 Pet. 2:9-10

I'm curious here, how does Romans 8:1-17 support the statement "makes me whole-heartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him"?

When I read that passage, it really looks like Paul is telling the readers that because of the Spirit they should be willing and ready, not that the Spirit makes them?

 

[Jim Parker]

Yes. This might be a good idea.

I believe Nathan is using the concept that only God is righteous in the sense of the meaning of the word as:

RIGHTEOUSNESS
The state of being perfect and without sin.
Or...
Righteousness
We know that God is righteous but what does this word mean? It certainly means that there is a right-ness in God. All that He is and all that he does is right and unlike humans, He is righteous in all He says as that is one of His attributes. The Old Testament says that God is righteous. In Psalm 7:11a we read “God is a righteous judge.” The word righteous in the Hebrew is “tsaddiy” which means just, lawful, and correct. The word righteous in the New Testament comes from the Greek word “dikaios” which means observing divine laws or upright, faultless, innocent, and guiltless. These are all descriptive of God Himself and no human has any of these attributes inherent in themselves even though we can do things that are upright and observe the divine laws like the Ten Commandments while not being able to obey them all, but how can fallen creatures like us be righteous?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christ...eousness-mean-in-the-bible-a-christian-study/
It is also used this way but this is not the Christian meaning:
RIGHTEOUS
Pronunciation (US):

Dictionary entry overview: What does righteous mean?
• RIGHTEOUS (adjective)
The adjective RIGHTEOUS has 2 senses:
1. characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice
2. morally justified
Familiarity information: RIGHTEOUS used as an adjective is rare.
Dictionary entry details
Meaning:
Characterized by or proceeding from accepted standards of morality or justice
Context example:
the...prayer of a righteous man availeth much
Similar:
good; just; upright (of moral excellence)
sound (free from moral defect
Also:
good (morally admirable)
clean-handed; guiltless; innocent (free from evil or guilt)
just (used especially of what is legally or ethically right or proper or fitting)
moral (concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles)
virtuous (morally excellent)
worthy (having worth or merit or value; being honorable or admirable)

So this is how I understand it:
God IS righteousness. He is perfect and without sin.
Psalm 7:9
John 17:25
He acts righteously.
Jeremiah 9:24
He judges righteously.
Psalm 98:9
His commandments are righteous.
Romans 7:12
His righteousness edures forever.
Psalm 112:3
(from Zondervan Study Bible NIV)
WE are not righteous in ourselves.
Romans 3:10
We are MADE righteous (right with God) through God.
Romans 4:11
So only God is righteous, meaning perfect and sinless.
But man could also be righteous, meaning right with God.
Comment?

Here's another view.
The Greek word DIKAIOSUNE (δικαιοσύνη) is translated "righteousness" or "justice" according to its context.

The word DIKAIOSUNE, "justice", is a translation of the Hebraic word “tsedaka.” This word means "the divine energy which accomplishes man's salvation". It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, “hesed” which means "mercy", "compassion", "love", and to the word, “emeth” which means "fidelity", "truth". This, as you see, gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice.
(From: "THE RIVER OF FIRE" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS)

Our western understanding of the word DIKAIOSUNE arises from the teachings of Augustine of Hippo and the Scholastics of the medieval Roman church which, unfortunately, gave rise to the "satisfaction" view of atonement as succinctly explained by the 11th century Archbishop of Canterbury, Anselm in his tract "Cur Deus Homo". (Why God became man) In it he proposes that God was infinitely offended by Adam's transgression and that it was necessary that divine justice be satisfied with the sacrifice of an infinitely valuable sacrifice. Since there was none among mankind, it was necessary that the Son of God become man and sacrifice Himself to satisfy the demands of divine justice.

This view is, to some extent, derived from the pagan Greek use of the word "DIKAIOSUNE" in the juridical sense of justice.

The most ancient view of the atonement is put forth by the book, On The Incarnation by Athanasius. To the very early church, God's action in Jesus' incarnation, death, and resurrection were all done out of God's love for mankind in order to destroy the work of Satan who has enticed man to sin and, thereby, to be subject to death. The early Church did not conceive of God being under any necessity to do anything since such a circumstance would make God subject to (subordinate to, of lesser autho0rity than) the "necessity. The atonement was totally God's willful act of love for His creation.

From that view, "righteousness" has no meaning of being "in right standing" before God. Rather, it carries the concept of being the recipient of God's love and graciousness.

Iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

Here's another view.
The Greek word DIKAIOSUNE (δικαιοσύνη) is translated "righteousness" or "justice" according to its context.

The word DIKAIOSUNE, "justice", is a translation of the Hebraic word “tsedaka.” This word means "the divine energy which accomplishes man's salvation". It is parallel and almost synonymous to the other Hebraic word, “hesed” which means "mercy", "compassion", "love", and to the word, “emeth” which means "fidelity", "truth". This, as you see, gives a completely other dimension to what we usually conceive as justice.
(From: "THE RIVER OF FIRE" by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS)

Our western understanding of the word DIKAIOSUNE arises from the teachings of Augustine of Hippo and the Scholastics of the medieval Roman church which, unfortunately, gave rise to the "satisfaction" view of atonement as succinctly explained by the 11th century Archbishop of Canterbury, Anselm in his tract "Cur Deus Homo". (Why God became man) In it he proposes that God was infinitely offended by Adam's transgression and that it was necessary that divine justice be satisfied with the sacrifice of an infinitely valuable sacrifice. Since there was none among mankind, it was necessary that the Son of God become man and sacrifice Himself to satisfy the demands of divine justice.

This view is, to some extent, derived from the pagan Greek use of the word "DIKAIOSUNE" in the juridical sense of justice.

The most ancient view of the atonement is put forth by the book, On The Incarnation by Athanasius. To the very early church, God's action in Jesus' incarnation, death, and resurrection were all done out of God's love for mankind in order to destroy the work of Satan who has enticed man to sin and, thereby, to be subject to death. The early Church did not conceive of God being under any necessity to do anything since such a circumstance would make God subject to (subordinate to, of lesser autho0rity than) the "necessity. The atonement was totally God's willful act of love for His creation.

From that view, "righteousness" has no meaning of being "in right standing" before God. Rather, it carries the concept of being the recipient of God's love and graciousness.

Iakov the fool

Jim,

What you wrote in blue makes me think of God's grace.
I'll be thinking about what you wrote.

The early church fathers believed that Jesus died to free us, but from what?
The hold Satan had on us since he is the ruler of this world.
I find this very interesting and am still learning about it.

Thanks for your post.

 

[Jim Parker]

The early church fathers believed that Jesus died to free us, but from what?

From the wages of sin: death.
Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death
2 Ti 1:10b …our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Nobody stays dead.
Everybody gets resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (with bodies that do not wear out, get sick, get old, get broken, etc.)

1Cor 15:52-54 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

iakov the fool

 

[th1b.taylor]

From the wages of sin: death.
Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death
2 Ti 1:10b …our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Nobody stays dead.
Everybody gets resurrected immortal and incorruptible. (with bodies that do not wear out, get sick, get old, get broken, etc.)

1Cor 15:52-54 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

iakov the fool

All of what you said is the truth but I would add one footnote: There are two resurrections yet to happen. Please study Revelation 20, all fifteen verses. The first of these two Resurrections is the event described as The Rapture and this is where the Saints that are alive can witness the Dead in Christ arise from the graves and ascend up yo Him in the clouds, followed by those that have not left their bodies but are still alive and worshiping God, maybe in secret. And following will be the seven years of the Great Tribulation, a.k.a. The Doy of The LORD.

That is followed by one thousand years of the reign of the Christ with His Bride and to the best of my understanding from my studies, Christ will rule with a rod of iron from the Holy City, Jerusalem and the Bride will rule cities, states and areas under Him.

Then after a thousand years of peaceful live on Earth, Satan is unleashed for a short time and he leads the unsaved in rebellion and the LORD ends it all by torching the Earth and destroying it. Then, as I read it, cones the final Resurrection. The Resurrection of those that have not bowed the head and have not bent the knee to the LORD will be judged at the great White Throne Judgement and sent to live with Satan and the demons in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Jim Parker]

There are two resurrections yet to happen.

No thanks.
I reject that opinion and the whole "rapture" teaching as one of many "winds of doctrine".
If it were really part of the revelation of God, we would have known about it for 2000 years rather than have it suddenly pop up 1800 years later.

And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

All of what you said is the truth but I would add one footnote: There are two resurrections yet to happen. Please study Revelation 20, all fifteen verses. The first of these two Resurrections is the event described as The Rapture and this is where the Saints that are alive can witness the Dead in Christ arise from the graves and ascend up yo Him in the clouds, followed by those that have not left their bodies but are still alive and worshiping God, maybe in secret. And following will be the seven years of the Great Tribulation, a.k.a. The Doy of The LORD.

That is followed by one thousand years of the reign of the Christ with His Bride and to the best of my understanding from my studies, Christ will rule with a rod of iron from the Holy City, Jerusalem and the Bride will rule cities, states and areas under Him.

Then after a thousand years of peaceful live on Earth, Satan is unleashed for a short time and he leads the unsaved in rebellion and the LORD ends it all by torching the Earth and destroying it. Then, as I read it, cones the final Resurrection. The Resurrection of those that have not bowed the head and have not bent the knee to the LORD will be judged at the great White Throne Judgement and sent to live with Satan and the demons in the Lake of Fire.

Hi Bill

I don't want to get into a discussion of end times because I know nothing about eschatology.

However, could you tell me this...

If a rapture happens and the Lord reigns for 1,000 years and then Satan is released,
WHO would the unsaved be that you mentioned?
If everyone was living in peace and happiness?
Where do the unsaved come from?

 

[Nathan]

All of what you said is the truth but I would add one footnote: There are two resurrections yet to happen. Please study Revelation 20, all fifteen verses. The first of these two Resurrections is the event described as The Rapture and this is where the Saints that are alive can witness the Dead in Christ arise from the graves and ascend up yo Him in the clouds, followed by those that have not left their bodies but are still alive and worshiping God, maybe in secret. And following will be the seven years of the Great Tribulation, a.k.a. The Doy of The LORD.

That is followed by one thousand years of the reign of the Christ with His Bride and to the best of my understanding from my studies, Christ will rule with a rod of iron from the Holy City, Jerusalem and the Bride will rule cities, states and areas under Him.

Then after a thousand years of peaceful live on Earth, Satan is unleashed for a short time and he leads the unsaved in rebellion and the LORD ends it all by torching the Earth and destroying it. Then, as I read it, cones the final Resurrection. The Resurrection of those that have not bowed the head and have not bent the knee to the LORD will be judged at the great White Throne Judgement and sent to live with Satan and the demons in the Lake of Fire.

I do agree there are two resurrections, but I cannot agree with this intupretation of it. However, it's not a matter that needs to be discussed in this thread. I'd be happy to discuss it in another.

 

[atpollard]

I'm curious here, how does Romans 8:1-17 support the statement "makes me whole-heartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him"?

When I read that passage, it really looks like Paul is telling the readers that because of the Spirit they should be willing and ready, not that the Spirit makes them?

Romans 8:1-17 [NKJV]
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

["make"="empowers" ... Deeper debate will have to wait til after Easter ... my Lent pledge to be more 'peaceable' and less argumentative.]

 

[Jim Parker]

Does God want all or some humans to be righteous?

God wants all humans to come to repentance and not perish. 2 Peter 3:9
God wants all of mankind to have eternal life. John 3:16; 6:40

So, man cannot even be righteous in being "right with God", unless God first gives that ability - through Christ.

Chapter and verse please.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

Nathan said: ↑
So, man cannot even be righteous in being "right with God", unless God first gives that ability - through Christ.

Chapter and verse please.

iakov the fool

Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

God made us alive together with Christ - we are powerless to do it ourselves.

 

[atpollard]

I don't want to get into a discussion of end times because I know nothing about eschatology.

Jesus wins! :woot ...

[EDIT: oops, forgot a verse ... Rev 19:20-21]