Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

atpollard when lent is over, I would very much like for you to explain how Calvinism explains the following passage. I cannot see how God would say the following things, then proclaim a call to the Gospel for all mankind, and then only elect some while not giving others a chance to respond.

Ezekiel 18:1-29
The word of the LORD came to me: “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’? As I live, declares the Lord GOD, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

“If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes,
and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live,declares the Lord GOD.

“If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things(though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.

“Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

“Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

1. God declares ALL souls are His, not just the elect(chosen) - righteous and unrighteous.
2. God declares its not about predestination and election that a soul should live or die, but because of righteousness and unrighteousness.
3. God declares if the unrighteous turn to Him, then they shall live.
4. God declares if the righteous turn away from Him, then they shall die.
5. God declares He does not have any pleasure or desire that any soul should die.
6. God declares that His way is just, and the way of the people are unjust.

Question - Can a person be righteous in anyway other than through the calling and choosing of God?

 

[atpollard]

These are all very beautiful thoughts.
So it made me wonder, WHO reads the Heidelberg Catechism?
Children, Adults? Saved? Unsaved?

As far as I understand it, 450+ years ago it was written as a guide for all new believers, children and adult, and adopted by the Synod of Dort for use within the territory of the political leader. Because there were few resources for the regular people who now had access to the Bible in their local language and because the Heidelberg Catechism is easy to understand, it was popular and spread quickly to be widely used by many Reformation Churches.

Today, it forms the statement of belief of several denominations and is still used to teach new believers. While the education of children has been passed off to more 'modern' programs of bible study lessons that often include crafts and videos, the Heidelberg Catechism could be used for that purpose and is what I am using to strengthen the faith of my 11 year old daughter as we get her ready to decide for herself when she will make a public profession and be baptized. Being born and raised in a covenant home, she already views God as a reality and serving Him as 'normal', this is about my using this as a tool to ensure that I have done everything that I know to do to answer the right questions and prepare her to the best of my ability.

At the last Southern Baptist Church that I attended, we studied the Baptist Faith and Message in detail as part of the Adult Sunday School. The Heidelberg Catechism could also serve as the subject for either a 'New Believer' Class or an Adult Education Class at any church that generally agreed with it's Theology.

I suppose that it probably could be read by unbelievers, but I am not sure why an unbeliever would want to bother. It seems to me that God needs to make the first move before most people care about what the Bible says, much less what some religious book says about the Bible.

 

[atpollard]

when lent is over, I would very much like for you to explain how Calvinism explains the following passage. I cannot see how God would say the following things, then proclaim a call to the Gospel for all mankind, and then only elect some while not giving others a chance to respond.

You will find nothing in the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Confession of Faith that claims this. (The part in bold underline.)

I have attempted several times in the past to point out that you are ascribing the incorrect source to man's failure to respond. If you present those 6 statements again after Easter, I will be happy to respond them:

1. God declares ALL souls are His, not just the elect(chosen) - righteous and unrighteous.
2. God declares its not about predestination and election that a soul should live or die, but because of righteousness and unrighteousness.
3. God declares if the unrighteous turn to Him, then they shall live.
4. God declares if the righteous turn away from Him, then they shall die.
5. God declares He does not have any pleasure or desire that any soul should die.
6. God declares that His way is just, and the way of the people are unjust.

... although I will probably respond to several with a question.

 

[GodsGrace]

As far as I understand it, 450+ years ago it was written as a guide for all new believers, children and adult, and adopted by the Synod of Dort for use within the territory of the political leader. Because there were few resources for the regular people who now had access to the Bible in their local language and because the Heidelberg Catechism is easy to understand, it was popular and spread quickly to be widely used by many Reformation Churches.

Today, it forms the statement of belief of several denominations and is still used to teach new believers. While the education of children has been passed off to more 'modern' programs of bible study lessons that often include crafts and videos, the Heidelberg Catechism could be used for that purpose and is what I am using to strengthen the faith of my 11 year old daughter as we get her ready to decide for herself when she will make a public profession and be baptized. Being born and raised in a covenant home, she already views God as a reality and serving Him as 'normal', this is about my using this as a tool to ensure that I have done everything that I know to do to answer the right questions and prepare her to the best of my ability.

At the last Southern Baptist Church that I attended, we studied the Baptist Faith and Message in detail as part of the Adult Sunday School. The Heidelberg Catechism could also serve as the subject for either a 'New Believer' Class or an Adult Education Class at any church that generally agreed with it's Theology.

I suppose that it probably could be read by unbelievers, but I am not sure why an unbeliever would want to bother. It seems to me that God needs to make the first move before most people care about what the Bible says, much less what some religious book says about the Bible.

Thanks Apollard.
Sounds like the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I'm not Catholic, but I did have to know it.

I agree with you. My opinion is that an unbeliever should read the N.T., not a catechism.
The N.T. is the word of God and can bring to faith...
The catechism, can, maybe, but it is not written for that purpose but to teach one's faith.

P.S. Catechism means to teach by question and answer.
To this understanding, I'd have to say (for Catholics) that the Baltimore Catechism is more in line with the Heidelberg Catechism.

 

[Nathan]

You will find nothing in the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Confession of Faith that claims this. (The part in bold underline.)

I have attempted several times in the past to point out that you are ascribing the incorrect source to man's failure to respond. If you present those 6 statements again after Easter, I will be happy to respond them:


... although I will probably respond to several with a question.

Fair enough. I fully admit I have a difficult time wording that question. I suppose it's because the words in the WCF don't say He doesn't allow, but it says He only chooses....and it really leaves the back door open for different thought processes. If they would say why other don't get chosen it would make more sense.

I'll read through it again to try and get my wording correct. But I'd still like your take on the passage in Ezekiel.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,

I understand about your thoughts on "preselected" (new word!)
This would be a predestination according to something God wanted to do which was very special and so He chose who would carry out His will. This does not mean those persons were perfect --- David comes to mind, Jonah. Even Moses didn't feel he was qualified.

(God does not call the qualified ---
God qualifies the called)

But as to salvation, could you clarify this please:

If salvation were predestined, why would Paul be so concerned about the salvation of his countrymen after the flesh?

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
Romans 9:1-3

Paul was very sorrowful and felt pain within himself for the Israelites. He would have been willing to be cursed by the Messiah if they could be blessed by Him (saved?). So how could they be predestined if Paul could say this?

Comment?
Thanks.

Every person born into this world has to come to believe in Christ Jesus to be saved. No one is exempt from this. The Elect (predestined) is guaranteed to believe because of, as you say, God had a very special work for them to do, and like Jeremiah, equipped him to do it before he was born....

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, those folk who come to Christ thru the General Call of the Gospel, they have a free will choice to either accept Salvation or reject it. They have to come to Christ the same way as the Elect. they have to believe in Christ Jesus to be saved.

Thank you for asking, God's special woman who is wondering.

 

[Nathan]

Every person born into this world has to come to believe in Christ Jesus to be saved. No one is exempt from this. The Elect (predestined) is guaranteed to believe because of, as you say, God had a very special work for them to do, and like Jeremiah, equipped him to do it before he was born....

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Now, those folk who come to Christ thru the General Call of the Gospel, they have a free will choice to either accept Salvation or reject it. They have to come to Christ the same way as the Elect. they have to believe in Christ Jesus to be saved.

Thank you for asking, God's special woman who is wondering.

Chopper, how do you reconcile two different groups of believers with one singular faith? It's by faith that we are saved, and that faith is a gift of God, so it means that He would be giving two different faiths. Where do you find two different faiths in the Bible?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Chopper, how do you reconcile two different groups of believers with one singular faith? It's by faith that we are saved, and that faith is a gift of God, so it means that He would be giving two different faiths. Where do you find two different faiths in the Bible?

I can't see it that way but rather they both believe in the same things equaling the same faith. One was ordained to believe before they were in the womb because God says so but the other, loving God ¿all the more? will grow into the same faith when they are called. The preachers I have hung around were mostly saved at an early age, two of them before they were ten years old and I lived likie Hell until I was forty-five and yet all of us have the same love for our God, the same faith.

 

[Nathan]

I can't see it that way but rather they both believe in the same things equaling the same faith. One was ordained to believe before they were in the womb because God says so but the other, loving God ¿all the more? will grow into the same faith when they are called. The preachers I have hung around were mostly saved at an early age, two of them before they were ten years old and I lived likie Hell until I was forty-five and yet all of us have the same love for our God, the same faith.

I can see that angle, but it would still mean there are two separate 'faiths' in the beginning. One that is generic for those who may or may not believe, and one that is more specific for the ones who cannot disbelieve.

Not only that, it would also require two separate 'callings'. One that is generic for those who may or may not respond, and one that is more specific for those who have to respond.

Its not so much the end of the matter but how it all comes about to begin with. That would be what predestination is - a 'before' ordaining of things.

But I cannot find where there are two separate 'beginnings' of faith or calling. In fact, we read that there is only one faith and one calling to all who are called into that one faith. One being the key word. It is clear that if you have two different groups of people then you have two different faiths and two different callings into that faith.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[Nathan]

Chapter X of the WCF states;
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

Then in regards to the 'others' not called;
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

According to the WCF God chooses some to election and others He does not choose to be elected. It clearly states this, without using that exact sentence. If God predestines some 'unto life', then it has to mean He does not predestine the rest unto life. And if those God predestines unto life have to come, then those He has not predestined cannot come - specifically because they are "not elected".

The WCF does not say that, those people 'not elected', are not elected because they choose not to be, or because of any other reason, other than because they were not predestined to be elected. It clearly states they 'cannot be saved' because they 'never truly come unto Christ' because they were 'not elected' to do so.

Therefore, it is without doubt, that the WCF states that God predestines some to be elected, and predestines some not to be elected.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I can see that angle, but it would still mean there are two separate 'faiths' in the beginning. One that is generic for those who may or may not believe, and one that is more specific for the ones who cannot disbelieve.

Not only that, it would also require two separate 'callings'. One that is generic for those who may or may not respond, and one that is more specific for those who have to respond.

Its not so much the end of the matter but how it all comes about to begin with. That would be what predestination is - a 'before' ordaining of things.

But I cannot find where there are two separate 'beginnings' of faith or calling. In fact, we read that there is only one faith and one calling to all who are called into that one faith. One being the key word. It is clear that if you have two different groups of people then you have two different faiths and two different callings into that faith.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Actually the whole of scripture makes the dual calling obvious. Before He created anything material, He predestined the Jew to be his people, the Greek and the rest of came along much later, when we recognized the call of God. Same faith by two methods.

 

[Nathan]

Actually the whole of scripture makes the dual calling obvious. Before He created anything material, He predestined the Jew to be his people, the Greek and the rest of came along much later, when we recognized the call of God. Same faith by two methods.

Actually, Paul makes it clear that all in Christ are predestined - not just the Jews. Time is irrelevant when talking about 'pre'destination. It all took place before time began.

"Same faith by two methods" goes against what Ephesians 4 states, in which there is one call - and that call is God's "method" for giving faith to all.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Chapter X of the WCF states;
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

Then in regards to the 'others' not called;
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

According to the WCF God chooses some to election and others He does not choose to be elected. It clearly states this, without using that exact sentence. If God predestines some 'unto life', then it has to mean He does not predestine the rest unto life. And if those God predestines unto life have to come, then those He has not predestined cannot come - specifically because they are "not elected".

The WCF does not say that, those people 'not elected', are not elected because they choose not to be, or because of any other reason, other than because they were not predestined to be elected. It clearly states they 'cannot be saved' because they 'never truly come unto Christ' because they were 'not elected' to do so.

Therefore, it is without doubt, that the WCF states that God predestines some to be elected, and predestines some not to be elected.

All of this must be reconciled with the rest of scripture because of what Mal. 3:6, 1John 4:8-16 and so many other verses have to say, remembering that scripture does not ever contradict itself. The oft ignored attributes of our Heavenly Father must come into play when dealing with this issue of Predestination.

Yes! Scripture, absolutely, teaches the concept of Predestination but scripture, regardless of man's preconception, interprets itself! Circular reasoning? Yes, as man reasons but God's ways are not our ways.Isa. 55:8,9) In scripture we find that God is Omniscient (Isa 46_9,10) and Omnipotent (Jude 24,25). Being omnipotent God created everthing, placing God outside of our Time/Space Continuum, He created that for our benefit. (Isa 57:15, 2Pet 3:8)

Think about it, even from our perspective, how could God invent time if He were constrained within it? So it is that I say God is present, right now, everywhere in the world, rifght this moment! But it doesn't stop there. God, being Omniscient, is also present, right now, in the past! And it goes further, God wrote the Book of Life before any of us were even thought of, God is also in the future at this very moment. God knew, before it happened, the very moment I would bend my knee to Him, me an Atheist!

I believe God looked down through the ages, just a few moments to Him (2Pet 3:8) and He saw the time for every single person would and/or will bend the knee and to worship Him. And I believe and suggest that this isw predestination, after all, the New Testament teaches that God would have no to perish. (2Pet 3:9)

 

[Jim Parker]

My opinion is that an unbeliever should read the N.T., not a catechism.

I believe that's right.
The purpose of the Catechism is to inform a believer not someone who does not believe.
Catechisms provide proper instruction about the basic meaning (interpretation) of scripture and have been used in some form since the beginning of the Church.
The earliest written example of a catechism (the "Didache" or "the teaching of the twelve") is contemporary with the NT writings.

iakov the fool

 

[Nathan]

I believe that's right.
The purpose of the Catechism is to inform a believer not someone who does not believe.
Catechisms provide proper instruction about the basic meaning (interpretation) of scripture and have been used in some form since the beginning of the Church.
The earliest written example of a catechism (the "Didache" or "the teaching of the twelve") is contemporary with the NT writings.

iakov the fool

Which Catechism do you feel is best? I have honestly never looked into it, so I am not sure if there is more than one?

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that's right.
The purpose of the Catechism is to inform a believer not someone who does not believe.
Catechisms provide proper instruction about the basic meaning (interpretation) of scripture and have been used in some form since the beginning of the Church.
The earliest written example of a catechism (the "Didache" or "the teaching of the twelve") is contemporary with the NT writings.

iakov the fool

I have posted the Didache many times.
It was probably written in the 90's.
John was still alive when it was in circulation.

It is basically ignored. I've had persons tell me it's not inspired as the bible is.
I tire of arguing this point.
Who does everyone think put the N.T. together as the complete book (texts) we have today?

It would be really great if everyone knew a little church history.
For some Christianity began in 1500.

 

[Jim Parker]

Which Catechism do you feel is best? I have honestly never looked into it, so I am not sure if there is more than one?

Which is best?
I'm not an authority and can't give a good answer.
But he following are available on line:

• The Orthodox Faith by V. Rev. Thomas Hopko (also: ISBN 0866420363, ISBN 0866420126)
• These Truths We Hold - The Holy Orthodox Church: Her Life and Teachings - compiled and edited by A Monk of St. Tikhon's Monastery. South Canaan, PA: St. Tikhon's Seminary Press,1986.
• "Orthodox Catechism"

Thomas Hopco is very good. (He just recently passed.)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Which Catechism do you feel is best? I have honestly never looked into it, so I am not sure if there is more than one?

There are many.
Which is best?
I'm not an authority and can't give a good answer.
But he following are available on line:

• The Orthodox Faith by V. Rev. Thomas Hopko (also: ISBN 0866420363, ISBN 0866420126)
• These Truths We Hold - The Holy Orthodox Church: Her Life and Teachings - compiled and edited by A Monk of St. Tikhon's Monastery. South Canaan, PA: St. Tikhon's Seminary Press,1986.
• "Orthodox Catechism"

Thomas Hopco is very good. (He just recently passed.)

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

There are many.
Which is best?
I'm not an authority and can't give a good answer.
But he following are available on line:

• The Orthodox Faith by V. Rev. Thomas Hopko (also: ISBN 0866420363, ISBN 0866420126)
• These Truths We Hold - The Holy Orthodox Church: Her Life and Teachings - compiled and edited by A Monk of St. Tikhon's Monastery. South Canaan, PA: St. Tikhon's Seminary Press,1986.
• "Orthodox Catechism"

Thomas Hopco is very good. (He just recently passed.)

iakov the fool

They must be good.


I have noticed that whenever you feel strongly about a subject or teaching, you post it twice.

 

[Jim Parker]

It would be really great if everyone knew a little church history.

There is a steady flow of Protestants away from Protestantism and into the Orthodox churches as a direct result of people wanting to know what the early church taught and discovering the Early Church Fathers. They find that what was orthodox (lower case "O") in the first 800 years of the church and what the modern western churches teach to day are, on some key issues, worlds apart and they move to the churches that teach the original doctrines of the Church.

I personally came into Orthodoxy from the Pentecostal Holiness Church. (So now I'm "orthocostal?")

It's a gentle awakening.

iakov the fool