Predestination

[Dorothy Mae]

Hello CL,
let's look forward into Heaven and see what they do say
No need to speculate.
All in Heaven will share this testimony;

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Here in Rev.19 they praise our Sovereign God for His righteous judgment;
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

When we read of the worship in Heaven, you won’t find a single sentences blessing God for those standing there who are CHOSEN but that He REDEEMED people from all groups. We also find He is praised because He is just. Deciding before birth who is going to hell is unjust.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God has an eternal purpose.Eph3:9-11
Everything He has purposed will come to pass exactly as designed Isa46:9-11
God is Perfect and Holy in All that He is, ie His love is holy and perfect, same for His wisdom, power,
wrath knowledge...all His attributes are Holy...perfect
Nothing exists outside of God's control.
God causes dead sinners to come to Jesus by the means of grace He has ordained before the world was.
2tim1:
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
To do this He has revealed that He is in total control of fallen angels and fallen men who oppose him. These fallen beings commit all manner of sin and evil against God and His elect saints.
God is not nor can be the author of sin as He is pure and Holy in all things.
Yet these fallen beings have the capacity to do such things and they try.
rev12:
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
It is satan who tries to kill, steal, and destroy, He uses fallen angels, and fallen men and women to attack the elect children the Father has given to the Son.
God gives believers the victory over it.
Eph6:
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

I asked what you think in your words. Can you answer the question in your words. What does he NOT cause?

 

[GodsGrace]

When we read of the worship in Heaven, you won’t find a single sentences blessing God for those standing there who are CHOSEN but that He REDEEMED people from all groups. We also find He is praised because He is just. Deciding before birth who is going to hell is unjust.

D,
This matter of God not being just is totally misunderstood. I hope to be speaking about this with Iconoclast when I get to my computer.

 

[Iconoclast]

When we read of the worship in Heaven, you won’t find a single sentences blessing God for those standing there who are CHOSEN but that He REDEEMED people from all groups. We also find He is praised because He is just. Deciding before birth who is going to hell is unjust.

I just posted the saints in Rev.19 singing alleuia for His righteous judgment.
You suggest it is unjust????

Let me enlarge the font so you will not miss it!

Revelation 19

King James Version

​

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Do you see this?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I just posted the saints in Rev.19 singing alleuia for His righteous judgment.
You suggest it is unjust????

Let me enlarge the font so you will not miss it!

Revelation 19​

​

King James Version​

​

​

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Do you see this?

Calvinism states God preselects those for hell/heaven. That is unjust.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

D,
This matter of God not being just is totally misunderstood. I hope to be speaking about this with Iconoclast when I get to my computer.

If he preselects eternal destinies for particular people for no reason, then he is unjust …..or the theology is wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

I asked what you think in your words. Can you answer the question in your words. What does he NOT cause?

I answered in my words. My words reflect what is declared by God in scripture.
Calvinists are biblical Christians who derive their worldview from scripture.
We are to think God's thoughts after Him.
Eccl.12:
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I answered in my words. My words reflect what is declared by God in scripture.
Calvinists are biblical Christians who derive their worldview from scripture.
We are to think God's thoughts after Him.
Eccl.12:
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

If you hide behind pieces of isolated scripture changing the meaning to suit your theology, it isn’t his thoughts or words at all. If you won’t express your position in your own words, it’s even more doubtful. No NT writer simply quoted the OT verbatim with none of their own thoughts….not one. And they did have the mind of Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I asked what specifically He does and doesn’t do, not what he did in the past.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism states God preselects those for hell/heaven. That is unjust.

No...it declares the truth that God has elected a multitude of guilty sinners out of fallen, dead mankind and gives them life from the dead.
The others are left...[preterition, passed over] to be judged justly for their sins who had no covering, no propitiation to turn away the wrath.
Here is how biblical Calvinists declare and confess this truth;

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

 

[GodsGrace]

If he preselects eternal destinies for particular people for no reason, then he is unjust …..or the theology is wrong.

This would seem to be the logical conclusion.
I'd like to understand the reformed better.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This would seem to be the logical conclusion.
I'd like to understand the reformed better.

I learned the most about it by talking to those who believe it as you are doing. It was fascinating as the fruit of that belief system appeared over and over again. So talking to them is recommended although if they only quote scripture you’ll get little to nothing out of them. The Enemy quotes scripture too. It’s how it is used that makes the difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

No...it declares the truth that God has elected a multitude of guilty sinners out of fallen, dead mankind and gives them life from the dead.
The others are left...[preterition, passed over] to be judged justly for their sins who had no covering, no propitiation to turn away the wrath.
Here is how biblical Calvinists declare and confess this truth;

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Hi I
Not at computer, but will just say,,,,
HOW is God picking some and not others just?

God is truly sovereign and He could do as He wishes. If you want to believe that God chooses persons for no reason other than his own pleasure, I would not agree but leave you to it.

What I can't understand is:
HOW is that justice???

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No...it declares the truth that God has elected a multitude of guilty sinners out of fallen, dead mankind and gives them life from the dead.

Absolutely not. There isn’t a hint of “CHOSEN” but instead redeemed.

The others are left...[preterition, passed over] to be judged justly for their sins who had no covering, no propitiation to turn away the wrath.
Here is how biblical Calvinists declare and confess this truth;

The others refused to join. Even says in Revelation that they REFUSED to repent not “they just weren’t chosen.”

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

Not scripture.

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

How cruel!!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

I learned the most about it by talking to those who believe it as you are doing. It was fascinating as the fruit of that belief system appeared over and over again. So talking to them is recommended although if they only quote scripture you’ll get little to nothing out of them. The Enemy quotes scripture too. It’s how it is used that makes the difference.

I've read some books and Calvin's Institutes and the WCF.

They all say the same, ,
But there's a disconnect I can't grasp.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you hide behind pieces of isolated scripture changing the meaning to suit your theology, it isn’t his thoughts or words at all. If you won’t express your position in your own words, it’s even more doubtful. No NT writer simply quoted the OT verbatim with none of their own thoughts….not one. And they did have the mind of Christ.

DM,
We think, believe, and live based on what we believe.
Psalm 1. psalm 119 declare we are blessed when we meditate on scripture day and night.
I am not that smart, I drive a truck, and my thoughts are defective and tainted by remaining sin.
the only wisdom I have is scriptural wisdom that can refute gainsayers.
All believers have access to this.
Although I might have underachieved in life, my job has enabled me to listen to 4-5 sermons a day for years..over 30 years...i drive 8-11 hours a day,70 hours per week.
After awhile we can see what is doing ...read rev 12.....maybe 10x in a row. It outlines redemptive history.
If you or any one else does not think it is my own words, you can call me on the phone and you will quickly discover I can speak much faster than I type. Let me know if you want to call.
I think if you dial* 67 it will not show your phone number on my phone.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've read some books and Calvin's Institutes and the WCF.

They all say the same, ,
But there's a disconnect I can't grasp.

The disconnect becomes clearer when you talk to people. The inconsistencies present themselves more openly.

 

[GodsGrace]

DM,
We think, believe, and live based on what we believe.
Psalm 1. psalm 119 declare we are blessed when we meditate on scripture day and night.
I am not that smart, I drive a truck, and my thoughts are defective and tainted by remaining sin.
the only wisdom I have is scriptural wisdom that can refute gainsayers.
All believers have access to this.
Although I might have underachieved in life, my job has enabled me to listen to 4-5 sermons a day for years..over 30 years...i drive 8-11 hours a day,70 hours per week.
After awhile we can see what is doing ...read rev 12.....maybe 10x in a row. It outlines redemptive history.
If you or any one else does not think it is my own words, you can call me on the phone and you will quickly discover I can speak much faster than I type. Let me know if you want to call.
I think if you dial* 67 it will not show your phone number on my phone.

How come DM can call you and I can't?!
I'm jealous.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

DM,
We think, believe, and live based on what we believe.
Psalm 1. psalm 119 declare we are blessed when we meditate on scripture day and night.
I am not that smart, I drive a truck, and my thoughts are defective and tainted by remaining sin.
the only wisdom I have is scriptural wisdom that can refute gainsayers.
All believers have access to this.
Although I might have underachieved in life, my job has enabled me to listen to 4-5 sermons a day for years..over 30 years...i drive 8-11 hours a day,70 hours per week.
After awhile we can see what is doing ...read rev 12.....maybe 10x in a row. It outlines redemptive history.
If you or any one else does not think it is my own words, you can call me on the phone and you will quickly discover I can speak much faster than I type. Let me know if you want to call.
I think if you dial* 67 it will not show your phone number on my phone.

I appreciate your openness. I doubt I can call from Europe. But your post is kind.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How come DM can call you and I can't?!
I'm jealous.

Face it he likes me better!