Predestination

[GodsGrace]

Face it he likes me better!

A little laugh never hurts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A little laugh never hurts.

I laughed too!!

 

[Iconoclast]

Absolutely not. There isn’t a hint of “CHOSEN” but instead redeemed.

The others refused to join. Even says in Revelation that they REFUSED to repent not “they just weren’t chosen.”

Not scripture.

How cruel!!!!

i am enjoying your questions today.We are getting to the truth.
The sad reality is sin causes death, both physical and eternal.
A Holy God punishes ALL sin.
Multitudes go into second death.
the people described in Rev.6 hate God, His word, and people, and they do not repent even when cast into hell.
Be mad at sin, not God who is to be praised in all things.

 

[Iconoclast]

Absolutely not. There isn’t a hint of “CHOSEN” but instead redeemed.

We are chosen IN Him.
We are bought with a price.
We are elected IN HIM, in saving Union in Him.
It was a Covenant death.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've read some books and Calvin's Institutes and the WCF.

They all say the same, ,
But there's a disconnect I can't grasp.

Yes...on your end admitting it is the first step to healing.

 

[Iconoclast]

I asked what specifically He does and doesn’t do, not what he did in the past.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

i am enjoying your questions today.We are getting to the truth.
The sad reality is sin causes death, both physical and eternal.
A Holy God punishes ALL sin.
Multitudes go into second death.
the people described in Rev.6 hate God, His word, and people, and they do not repent even when cast into hell.
Be mad at sin, not God who is to be praised in all things.

I agree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Doing what the same? I am asking particulars especially about what he doesn’t do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are chosen IN Him.
We are bought with a price.
We are elected IN HIM, in saving Union in Him.
It was a Covenant death.

That isn’t in the Revelation text describing the worship. That was my point.

 

[jasonc]

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Don't see yourself short.

While true a CDL a driver ,I have a b,may not need a degree but there is intelligence in that you must pay attention to the load you take ,and also care for the way you travel .

Ie is it caustic ,flammable ,reactive and or food ,the weight ,the time it takes to drive ,plus road conditions and also the truck condition .the speed and the other conditions you just deal with it.

 

[Tenchi]

Something funny.
I've been studying calvinism for about 10 years.
Someone on this forum, maybe a couple of months ago,
told me that if he wanted to debate with Leighton Flowers, he would. (meaning he didn't want to debate with me).
So I looked for Flowers on YouTube.
Whoa!
He was a calvinist for 10 years.
I think he talks way too much and can't watch an entire program,,,
but I look through his stuff and it's really good in that he explains things really well.

Yes, he does tend to go on, doesn't he? But, the trade-off is that he thoroughly explains things.

What I thought was just too fantastic, is that he said that calvinists tell him he doesn't understand calvinism.
Could you imagine?
And, by jove, this is what I'M told all the time.

I don't really understand this.
I think I know it really well.

Have you seen the first "Incredibles" movie? It's a cartoon-cgi movie about a family of superheroes. Pretty funny, actually (I think, anyway). There's a scene where the father of the family is at his day-job in an insurance company and has been called in to his supervisor's office where the supervisor goes on a bit of a rant. At one point in the rant, the supervisor exclaims, "They're penetrating the bureaucracy!" What he meant was that the company's convoluted tangle of rules, procedures and bureaucratic red-tape was intended to keep insurance-holders from accessing funds but somehow Mr. Incredible's clients were piercing through all these things and actually getting from the insurance company what the company had contracted with them to provide.

There is a parallel here to how Reformed/Calvinist folk deal with their opponents, with those who penetrate the doctrinal "bureaucracy" of their systematic and expose what it actually, at bottom, proposes. In response, some Calvinists retreat into the significant spectrum of views that Calvinists hold to, deflecting challenges to their systematic by saying, "Well, that's not what I believe." Others make this out to be a deficiency of knowledge in non-Reformed folk, knowing, of course, that it's impossible for challengers of Reformed doctrine to address every variation of view within the Reformed fold. Still other proponents of the Reformed perspective are guilty of "Begging the Question," demanding that those who challenge Reformed views adopt the definitions and assumptions of the view when interpreting Scripture, decrying any interpretation of their proof-texts that doesn't do so.

Almost ad nauseum, Dr. Flowers has addressed all of these complaints and deflections in his videos, using the sermons, podcasts and writings of prominent proponents of Reformed doctrine to establish his challenges to their doctrines and then from Scripture showing why they are seriously awry. When Reformed proponents respond with, "But it's more complicated than that! You just don't understand the complexities and sophistication of Reformed doctrine!" I think of the principle of Occham's Razor and Mr. Incredible's complaining supervisor.

One other thing I've noticed: Reformed proponents are often extremely condescending and nasty. Though they propound the "doctrines of grace" they are themselves very ungracious toward their detractors. But, I suppose, they can't help but be so since God has meticulously ordained that they should be ungracious (though, contrary to His explicit command not to be in His word).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes...on your end admitting it is the first step to healing.

Hey....
Maybe it's on your end!


Don't drive off the road!

 

[Consecrated Life]

You will not find a single person on earth today who will tell you that their salvation came from hearing a message of predestination .
And in all the multitude of Heaven you will never find even one who will confess
that that their salvation came from hearing a message of being predestined .
Not from one on earth.
And not from a one in heaven will you ever hear that .

" For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ , for it is the power of God unto salvation."
Romans 1:16

Hello CL,
let's look forward into Heaven and see what they do say
No need to speculate.

Iconoclast,
No need to speculate.
When we have actual knowledge that from no person, living or dead , to include the most strident predestinationist you care to name will you ever hear or quote saying that their salvation came from a treasured message of predestination .
A salvation to circumscribed and weak to be confessed on earth we can be assured will not be confessed in heaven.
We can certainly speculate about why that is so if you like ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Iconoclast,
No need to speculate.
When we have actual knowledge that from no person, living or dead , to include the most strident predestinationist you care to name will you ever hear or quote saying that their salvation came from a treasured message of predestination .
A salvation to circumscribed and weak to be confessed on earth we can be assured will not be confessed in heaven.
We can certainly speculate about why that is so if you like ?

Predestination teaching is more likely to turn people off from the gospel. I actually know atheists who rejected such an evil Supreme Being and rightly so. They figured any god choosing who goes to heaven and who goes to hell before the foundation of the world is not to be honor nor praised. I cannot but agree. And if you tell man that he is either predestined for one or the other, he is likely to then figure he needn't bother about either as it is fixed no matter if he repents and believes. Believing or not doesn't make any difference as it is all pre-determined no matter what decision he actually makes.

 

[JWdant]

Wondering

[3. Have you read the Institutes?]

I have the institutes and use them more for reference to check when others quote him out of context, more often than not. I have an extensive library of some of the best books written outside of the bible .

[Do you go through one of the Confessions on your own, with no commentary to arrive at your own conclusion?]
No....The Confessions were mostly written before I was born.
Do I feel I have to re-invent the wheel? No...i will use those in place.
Now as to what you are asking....here is an execise I have recommended for people..take the 1689 Confession of faith....the topics.
Without looking at it....write your own, just using your bible and your own words and verses as proofs.
I do not think any one here is going to say as much, as biblically accurate, in fewer words.
try it,

1. Of the Holy Scriptures
2. Of God and the Holy Trinity
3. Of God's Decree
4. Of Creation
5. Of Divine Providence
6. Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the punishment thereof
7. Of God's Covenant
8. Of Christ the Mediator
9. Of Free Will
10. Of Effectual Calling
11. Of Justification
12. Of Adoption
13. Of Sanctification
14. Of Saving Faith
15. Of Repentance unto Life and Salvation
16. Of Good Works
17. Of the Perseveraance of the Saints
18. Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
19. Of the Law of God
20. Of the Gospel and the Extent of Grace thereof
21. Of Christian Liberty and Liberty of Conscience
22. Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day
23. Of Lawful Oaths and Vows
24. Of the Civil Magistrate
25. Of Marriage
26. Of the Church
27. Of the Communion of Saints
28. Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper
29. Of Baptism
30. Of the Lord's Supper
31. Of the State of Man after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
32. Of the Last Judgement

[4. Too much writing about what non-calvinists believe... so this causes you not to Listen to what I'm posting because you just throw all of us "arminians" into the batch.]

Did it ever occur to you Calvinists have read and understood Jn.3:16? Or that we have read and considered those who oppose it?

My problem with calvinism: People who practice calvinism put limits on God. If you can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time I'm sure God can too. God gives man free will and choice throughout their life. Calvinist claim God already knows if a man is going to Hell/Heaven which is true but that does not take free will away from man. If man has no choice then God is not God. Matthew 19:26 Prove this verse wrong if you can.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, he does tend to go on, doesn't he? But, the trade-off is that he thoroughly explains things.

Right. I watched a very good YouTube today.
Look for it in Science.
It's not about calvinism, but I have a feeling you might be interested.

Have you seen the first "Incredibles" movie? It's a cartoon-cgi movie about a family of superheroes. Pretty funny, actually (I think, anyway). There's a scene where the father of the family is at his day-job in an insurance company and has been called in to his supervisor's office where the supervisor goes on a bit of a rant. At one point in the rant, the supervisor exclaims, "They're penetrating the bureaucracy!"

Thanks for the laugh!

What he meant was that the company's convoluted tangle of rules, procedures and bureaucratic red-tape was intended to keep insurance-holders from accessing funds but somehow Mr. Incredible's clients were piercing through all these things and actually getting from the insurance company what the company had contracted with them to provide.

Yes, I saw it and it was good. I like those cartoon movies.
I'm young at heart !!

There is a parallel here to how Reformed/Calvinist folk deal with their opponents, with those who penetrate the doctrinal "bureaucracy" of their systematic and expose what it actually, at bottom, proposes. In response, some Calvinists retreat into the significant spectrum of views that Calvinists hold to, deflecting challenges to their systematic by saying, "Well, that's not what I believe." Others make this out to be a deficiency of knowledge in non-Reformed folk, knowing, of course, that it's impossible for challengers of Reformed doctrine to address every variation of view within the Reformed fold. Still other proponents of the Reformed perspective are guilty of "Begging the Question," demanding that those who challenge Reformed views adopt the definitions and assumptions of the view when interpreting Scripture, decrying any interpretation of their proof-texts that doesn't do so.

Sounds about right.
And begging the question: I'm not sure what that is....
but I've gotten to using the WCF and the Institutes and still I'm told I'm getting it wrong
AND that we have to use the bible !

Almost ad nauseum, Dr. Flowers has addressed all of these complaints and deflections in his videos, using the sermons, podcasts and writings of prominent proponents of Reformed doctrine to establish his challenges to their doctrines and then from Scripture showing why they are seriously awry. When Reformed proponents respond with, "But it's more complicated than that! You just don't understand the complexities and sophistication of Reformed doctrine!" I think of the principle of Occham's Razor and Mr. Incredible's complaining supervisor.

Sounds familiar.
What about James White?
There must be others I don't know.
He DOES tell Flowers the same.
The song has only one note.

One other thing I've noticed: Reformed proponents are often extremely condescending and nasty. Though they propound the "doctrines of grace" they are themselves very ungracious toward their detractors. But, I suppose, they can't help but be so since God has meticulously ordained that they should be ungracious (though, contrary to His explicit command not to be in His word).

Well, I've often said we should live our faith.
To the best of our ability.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast

This is from post 135:
I have no need to end the conversation as it is shifting back to correcting caricatures caused by mixing up the words. You did not address Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.
I think I exegeted all of Romans 8:29-30.
Maybe not.
But I'll be happy to answer your above:


Romans 8:28-30 NASB
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
You want to know: Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.

Verse 28: God works everything to our benefit. We may even have a sickness in the family, or a death, but somehow He works this for our benefit. Us: Those who love God. Those who are called according to what God wants from them. Some are called to be pastors, some parents, some missionaries, etc. God has a purpose for our life. We truly have a purpose-filled life.

Verse 29: God foreknew those that would be accepting His Son and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Foreknow means to know beforehand. Known before.
2 Peter 3:17 Peter tells his readers to be forewarned...warned beforehand.
Foretold: Told before
Foreknow: Know before

The people here being spoken of are those that will choose in the future to accept Jesus as Savior.
God knew who they would be before they accepted. God FOREKNEW.
Again, God is speaking about those that would love Him. They would be PREDESTINED to be conformed to His Son.
The predestination is not WHO, but WHAT. It is always WHAT or HOW, never a who.

Verse 30: These persons that were going to love God in the future, and those that had already loved Him in the past.
God also called. God called, or invited, all those that would accept Jesus. Those whom He called He also justified and then He also glorified. But glorified is something that is going to happen in the future -- so perhaps CALLED means something different. It can't be to salvation because they would already be saved. It leaves a question. This is why I said called in the future and IN THE PAST. It might mean those that were called in the past. Not sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

here is the real one, whatever version you posted is inaccurate.

Westminster Confession of Faith - WestminsterStandards.org

I. Of the Holy Scripture1. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; (Rom. 2:14–15, Rom. 1:19–20, Ps. 19:1–3, Rom. 1:32, Rom. 2:1) yet they are not sufficient to give that...

westminsterstandards.org

I do not derive my doctrines from Calvin, but rather from scripture.
If I look at Human guides I would recommend,
John Murray-Redemption, Accomplished and Applied,
You will not find one sentence in that book that you could unravel.
I would also recommend:
A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by W.R, Downing.
It is totally Christ-centered and contemporary.
J.L.Dagg Manual of Theology.
J.P.Boyce Abstract of Principles
Louis Berkof Systematic Theology
John Owen Death of Death in The death of Christ.
Hugh Martin on the Atonement
Sinclair Ferguson on Know your Christian Life......these speak to me, miles ahead of Calvin.
There are many, many more.
My "Calvinism" will be found to be mirrored in their writings.
You made a comment as if I stood alone, but I assure you I am quite mainstream.
I and others dismantled Leighton Flowers day in and day out on BB.It is there in the archives between 2011 and 2015
Some of these titles can be found online, for free

Too many books...not that there's anything wrong with it.
I've read books too. But there's just too many - I like to keep with the bible.

W...moving forward, quote the real confession, I quote from the Baptist Confession of 1689. here is the actual quote.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

OK. Here's what it means to me --- then please comment.

1. BY GOD'S HOLY AND WISE COUNSEL...HIS OWN WILL AND WISHES, DECIDED FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME
ALL THINGS TO HAPPEN. HOWEVER, THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM THE AUTHOR OF SIN NOR DOES HE FORCE US TO DO ANYTHING AGAINST OUR WILL . GOD IS THE CAUSE OF EVERYTHING AND HE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE SECOND CAUSE AS GOD IS THE REASON THAT SECOND CAUSES EXIST. GOD WILL ACCOMPLISH WHAT HE DECREES.

So, explain how God can decide from the beginning of time ALL THINGS that are to happen...
but it does not make Him the author of sin.
So is there another God?
He caused ALL THINGS to happen.
Even secondary causes.

( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

2. GOD DOES NOT LET THINGS HAPPEN BY LOOKING INTO THE FUTURE.

Right. He predestinates everything.
He does not know only from looking into the future, which would be foreknowledge, which everyone agrees with except the reformed.

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

3. FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS GLORY, GOD HAS DECREED/ORDERED/PREDESTINATED/FORORDAINED SOME MEN AND ANGELS TO LIFE THROUGH JESUS, LEAVING OTHERS TO ACT IN THEIR SIN TO THEIR JUST CONDEMNATION, AND THIS TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORIOUS JUSTICE.


First, notice that ALL your favorite words are in that number 3...decree, predestinated, foreordained.
Because they ALL mean THE SAME.

And here's what I dislike to be corrected about when it's as plain as black and white....
God predestinated some men to eternal life through Jesus,
leaving others to die in their sin - through no fault of their own but only because they weren't chosen -
God does this for His glorious justice....

HOW is this justice?
Did God give to each man as he deserves?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi I
Not at computer, but will just say,,,,
HOW is God picking some and not others just?

God is truly sovereign and He could do as He wishes. If you want to believe that God chooses persons for no reason other than his own pleasure, I would not agree but leave you to it.

What I can't understand is:
HOW is that justice???

Rom9:11-22
The potter does what he wants with the clay.
I trust a perfectly Holy and just God that he will Do Right?
GEN.18:25
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom9:11-22
The potter does what he wants with the clay.
I trust a perfectly Holy and just God that he will Do Right?
GEN.18:25
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Yes, Iconoclast, I understand.
You give me verses that state that God is just.
I KNOW He's just and the creator of the justice we try to follow here on earth.

What I'm saying is this:
God IS JUST.

It's the reformed faith that represents Him as UNJUST.

Please just listen for a minute.
You know I could post tens of verses saying God is just...so let me try this...

I hate analogies, but here goes:

We're in a courtroom.
There are 100 persons in this courtroom.
And the judge sitting at his seat.

1. Each person will appear before the judge.
As each one comes up to him, the judge declares:
"THIS ONE GOES TO SIBERIA"
and to some the judge declares:
"THIS ONE GOES TO HAWAII"

His decision is based on NOTHING AT ALL.
Is this justice?

Or is this justice:

2. The same 100 people get divided.
The good persons go to the left.
They get to go to Hawaii. (they'll have a pleasant life).

The criminals go to the right.
They get to go to Siberia. (they won't bother anyone there).


Which persons enjoyed justice?
The group in no. 1
or the group in no. 2
??