Predestination

[Iconoclast]

wondering
[IF God chooses who will be saved, what would be the reason for Jesus to die?]

To pay for the sins of the sheep. Once elected the sins have to be paid for.

[I don't believe babies are born in sin.]

you are wrong on this...All sinned at one point in time, that was the fall

[Babies are NOT born with any sin.]

All sinned and died in Adam...a biblical fact and reality rom3:23

[They are not capable of committing sin and they are not IMPUTED with Adam's sin.]

The bible teaches it, it is undeniable; rom5:12-21
[We are only responsible for our own sins.]
no...all will pay for sins they have committed but we all died in Adam

I'm having a serious discussion with you.
If you're going to laugh at the comments electedbyhim makes,
it makes me feel like you're not taking this conversation seriously.
Please make up your mind - I don't have a lot of time to spare but
I feel this is really important.

What i am laughing at is what elected by him has posted I have personally experienced on 4 other messages boards, not laughing at you.
I have had4 different moderators ban me by lying and created posts that I never posted, they posted them in my name as if i posted and then banned based on the lying posts I never said, strictly because I am a biblical calvinist. Elected by him has joined up on an uncensored message board I have created.
there are no TOS...people are to behave as christians, I do not, edit, delete, or censor anyone.
i actually need help as i do not know how to organize it better, but I got tired of supposed Christians lying...https://bibleinteraction.freeforums.net/

 

[GodsGrace]

What ever is ordained to happen, will certainly happen, but you did not cause it to happen

yes different.... you see it as looking forward, seeing what will happen, what action, what activity.

Biblically it is a selection of persons. I have posted this before...whom....not their actions whom



Anthony

Anthony from Arienzo!
It's really late here so I'll save my replies for tomorrow.
But just this evening my daughter and I were discussing the following commercial.
But this one was from Boston...
'night.

 

[Robert Pate]

From the problem of evil. W.R. Downing
THE MYSTERY OF EVIL The existence of evil in the universe of a righteous and holy God is a great mystery, yet the Scriptures reveal that God has determined all things and this must include sin. To deny or seek to circumvent this would bring God down to the level of the finite and leave evil as an inexplicable mystery existing in opposition to God in a dualistic sense. This is certainly unsatisfactory. I. Howard Marshall, a New Testament scholar, seeks to do this because of his Arminian assumptions concerning God and the nature of evil: The Bible is clear that God is not the author of evil. Its origin is and perhaps must be a mystery. Its evilness lies in its lack of good purpose, and thus in its irrationality and opposition to the purpose of God. How it can have come to exist in a universe created by God is unknowable. We must be content to leave the question unresolved. The Calvinist falls into error when he ascribes the reason why some people are not saved to the decretive will of God; in effect, he is trying to explain evil. It is wiser to locate the reason why some people are not saved in the sheer mystery of evil.4 DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24). He sent an evil spirit to obsess King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14; 18:10; 19:9). He brought evil upon Israel for her sins (1 Kgs. 9:9). A lying spirit was sent by God to lead Ahab to his defeat and death (1 Kgs. 22:20–23). The Lord appointed the defeat of Ahithophel’s counsel that he might bring evil upon Absolom (2 Sam. 17:14). God turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Israelites (Ps. 105:25). The greatest crime in history—the illegality of the trial, the abuse, shame, suffering, and death of the Son of God with all its attendant sin on the part of men—was predetermined by God (Lk. 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28). How can God do these things and yet remain holy, righteous and free from sin? The issues are two: the origin of sin and the problem of evil.

God does not bring evil on good people. He brings evil on the evil people.

 

[Iconoclast]

God does not bring evil on good people. He brings evil on the evil people.

Robert ....did you read what was posted?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul makes plain that we humans bear the responsibility of choosing or rejecting God's GIFT to all .
As it is with any gift offered, the choice is ours to accept or decline.

Rom 5:18
¶... by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Notice the Gift of God is offered to ALL .
How is it then that ALL do not receive it do you suppose ?
Perhaps that troublesome word insurmountable and so reviled by all predestined adherents , CHOICE

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul makes plain that we humans bear the responsibility of choosing or rejecting God's GIFT to all .
As it is with any gift offered, the choice is ours to accept or decline.

No Cl, we will discover shortly Paul taught no such thing.

Rom 5:18
¶... by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Notice the Gift of God is offered to ALL .
How is it then that ALL do not receive it do you suppose ?

lol....the english word ALL must be defined by the bible, you failed at this point

Perhaps that troublesome word insurmountable and so reviled by all predestined adherents , CHOICE

Perhaps NOT
Ah, sarcasm is detected...ok...I can do requests:yes
let me show clearly your defective theology.
Very simple....
On a piece of paper draw a very large circle......
name that circle ;
ALL physically Born men , spiritually dead in Adam.....that represents All men ever born dead in Adam

Inside that large circle draw a circle about 2/3 the size of the first circle..

name that circle; All men spiritually born again In Christ the last Adam.

Notice we have the word that you like...ALL

Now what is very obvious is this...

All men ever born are born DEAD IN ADAM

Only those men BORN AGAIN IN THE LAST ADAM have eternal life in Jesus

The lesson boys and girls is the ALL in Christ live,

Those who remain in Adam remain in the realm of death and go into second death.

Those who have an agenda to try and twist truth, fail big time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

From the problem of evil. W.R. Downing
THE MYSTERY OF EVIL The existence of evil in the universe of a righteous and holy God is a great mystery, yet the Scriptures reveal that God has determined all things and this must include sin. To deny or seek to circumvent this would bring God down to the level of the finite and leave evil as an inexplicable mystery existing in opposition to God in a dualistic sense. This is certainly unsatisfactory. I. Howard Marshall, a New Testament scholar, seeks to do this because of his Arminian assumptions concerning God and the nature of evil: The Bible is clear that God is not the author of evil. Its origin is and perhaps must be a mystery. Its evilness lies in its lack of good purpose, and thus in its irrationality and opposition to the purpose of God. How it can have come to exist in a universe created by God is unknowable. We must be content to leave the question unresolved. The Calvinist falls into error when he ascribes the reason why some people are not saved to the decretive will of God; in effect, he is trying to explain evil. It is wiser to locate the reason why some people are not saved in the sheer mystery of evil.4 DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24). He sent an evil spirit to obsess King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14; 18:10; 19:9). He brought evil upon Israel for her sins (1 Kgs. 9:9). A lying spirit was sent by God to lead Ahab to his defeat and death (1 Kgs. 22:20–23). The Lord appointed the defeat of Ahithophel’s counsel that he might bring evil upon Absolom (2 Sam. 17:14). God turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Israelites (Ps. 105:25). The greatest crime in history—the illegality of the trial, the abuse, shame, suffering, and death of the Son of God with all its attendant sin on the part of men—was predetermined by God (Lk. 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28). How can God do these things and yet remain holy, righteous and free from sin? The issues are two: the origin of sin and the problem of evil.

Since it’s a mystery to the author, which he freely admits twice, there’s no point in listening to what he has to say. He admits it’s a mystery to him. Why listen to a person who admits they’re ignorant on a subject?

I, on the other hand, completely understand why evil exists. It’s no mystery to me at all and it’s so simple I’m surprised it’s a mystery to him. But then I understand God and His ways. Probably the difference. Jeremiah 9:24

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy...yes he does, or they could not come to pass.
Whatever is ordained to come to pass does come to pass.
God does not make, force, push, satan to be the opposer. Satan does that all by himself.
That is why there is no redemption for fallen angels.
Evil exits Dorothy, but God is completely sovereign over it.

I wish you would stop shouting at us as though that makes your point stronger. It just shows that you have doubts which you cover up by shouting.

God does not control man nor angels nor devils. They are all
free moral agents. You are stuck in the cage of calvinism which insists there are no free moral agents but God is manipulating behind the scenes and it’s all a farce. From experience with your kind, I know (and the above is an example) you will hold absolutely contradictory beliefs and so at one moment deny that and the next support it. This is the intellectual suicide I’ve seen your side commit. It’s one of two developments in calvinists.

 

[Iconoclast]

Since it’s a mystery to the author, which he freely admits twice, there’s no point in listening to what he has to say. He admits it’s a mystery to him. Why listen to a person who admits they’re ignorant on a subject?

I, on the other hand, completely understand why evil exists. It’s no mystery to me at all and it’s so simple I’m surprised it’s a mystery to him. But then I understand God and His ways. Probably the difference. Jeremiah 9:24

The article is 13 pages long, I only posted a small portion.
The author has taught Greek and Hebrew for over 50 years.
You bad mouth him, JohnM., so when it comes down to it I will go with Biblical teachers rather than an unlearned person as God says to do.Thanks for asking.

 

[Iconoclast]

I wish you would stop shouting at us as though that makes your point stronger. It just shows that you have doubts which you cover up by shouting.

God does not control man nor angels nor devils. They are all
free moral agents. You are stuck in the cage of calvinism which insists there are no free moral agents but God is manipulating behind the scenes and it’s all a farce. From experience with your kind, I know (and the above is an example) you will hold absolutely contradictory beliefs and so at one moment deny that and the next support it. This is the intellectual suicide I’ve seen your side commit. It’s one of two developments in calvinists.

You have no Biblical clue what the truth is,yet you attack godly men...non stop.
I am not shouting, but highlighting what you all miss. You have yet to answer any post scripturally,, just personal attacks to posters and pastors as if we should pay attention to that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The article is 13 pages long, I only posted a small portion.
The author has taught Greek and Hebrew for over 50 years.
You bad mouth him, JohnM., so when it comes down to it I will go with Biblical teachers rather than an unlearned person as God says to do.Thanks for asking.

I didn’t bad mouth him. He says it’s a mystery to him twice. If you prefer the teaching of a man who writes 13 pages on a subject he admits is actually a mystery to him, well, that’s your free will NOT ORDAINED choice.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You have no Biblical clue what the truth is,yet you attack godly men...non stop.

Ah the personal attack.

I am not shouting, but highlighting what you all miss.

At least you stopped shouting. What a relief!!

You have yet to answer any post scripturally,, just personal attacks to posters and pastors as if we should pay attention to that.

Ah, more personal attacks. God did not ordain you to attack people. That’s your free will choice so don’t blame him for you choosing wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ah the personal attack.

At least you stopped shouting. What a relief!!

Ah, more personal attacks. God did not ordain you to attack people. That’s your free will choice so don’t blame him for you choosing wrong.

You have done nothing but personal attacks, against godly pastors no less.
Then you offer no solid content instead just error. Take the log out of your own eye, do not worry about the spec in mine.
You claim a self-righteous form of love, yet offer no true biblical love, that speaks truth.
I have seen you be critical of every Calvinist Christian, even when they offer you correction.What is up with that? Do you have the gift of accusing the brethren?
the pastors you judge are God's servants, known worldwide, yet you judge them so harshly with slander and innuendo. We read it,,,,everyday it looks like.
How about actually addressing the topics, using scripture? Try that for a while

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You have done nothing but personal attacks, against godly pastors no less.

Where? Point out where I said something about him in particular or cease telling untrue accusations. wondering pointed out your continual personal attacks.

Then you offer no solid content instead just error. Take the log out of your own eye, do not worry about the spec in mine.

Huh? Never talked about your eyes. But I seeing her claim is true and will end it here.

I rarely debate calvinists because 1) they get real nasty when they’re losing and 2) I just beat them every time and it’s not the least bit pleasurable. But those on the fence need to see some light.

You claim a self-righteous form of love, yet offer no true biblical love, that speaks truth.
I have seen you be critical of every Calvinist Christian, even when they offer you correction.What is up with that? Do you have the gift of accusing the brethren?
the pastors you judge are God's servants, known worldwide, yet you judge them so harshly with slander and innuendo. We read it,,,,everyday it looks like.
How about actually addressing the topics, using scripture? Try that for a while

Didn’t read the above. I did manage to get you to stop yelling at us. But I gather the acid will be flowing.

Adieu

 

[Iconoclast]

Where? Point out where I said something about him in particular or cease telling untrue accusations. wondering pointed out your continual personal attacks.

Huh? Never talked about your eyes. But I seeing her claim is true and will end it here.

I rarely debate calvinists because 1) they get real nasty when they’re losing and 2) I just beat them every time and it’s not the least bit pleasurable. But those on the fence need to see some light.

Didn’t read the above. I did manage to get you to stop yelling at us. But I gather the acid will be flowing.

Adieu

I get reminded of these two verses when I interact with people who post as you do;
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

You do not like when we point out what you do.
You want examples, just look at any post you offer to Calvinists there are too many to count,
Try offering scripture, because this other posting is a time waster .

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul makes plain that we humans bear the responsibility of choosing or rejecting God's GIFT to all .
As it is with any gift offered, the choice is ours to accept or decline.



Notice the Gift of God is offered to ALL .
How is it then that ALL do not receive it do you suppose ?
Perhaps that troublesome word insurmountable and so reviled by all predestined adherents , CHOICE

No Cl, we will discover shortly Paul taught no such thing.

lol....the english word ALL must be defined by the bible, you failed at this point



Perhaps NOT
Ah, sarcasm is detected...ok...I can do requests:yes
let me show clearly your defective theology.
Very simple....
On a piece of paper draw a very large circle......
name that circle ;
ALL physically Born men , spiritually dead in Adam.....that represents All men ever born dead in Adam

Inside that large circle draw a circle about 2/3 the size of the first circle..

name that circle; All men spiritually born again In Christ the last Adam.

Notice we have the word that you like...ALL

What I notice is a scriptural understanding on your behalf that is miles wide and inches deep.
If you knew your scripture you would have known that in the very next sentence Paul makes separation between saved & unsaved void of your childish attempt to do with your infantile circle scenario, Paul in contrast also staying true to God's plan of salvation.
In the next verse Paul makes clear that the FREE GIFT OFFERED TO ALL is not accepted by all.
Paul does this by applying another word to the matter, no need for all your head scratching mental gymnastics.
Paul does this with the proper word you are unfamiliar with, the word MANY.

Rom 5:19
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

"MANY" the word being used by Paul to separate those whose choice was to receive or reject the free gift offered to "ALL".

Your obvious cursory knowledge of scripture failing you in ability to see the obvious separation of individuals that Paul has identified by simply applying the appropriate words in their proper context.
Your mental gymnastics of twisting a single word into multiple meaning circles to be pounded into square holes notwithstanding .


I notice that GIFT another word in the verse you have studiously avoided defining as it applies to giver & receiver in this verse.
The emphasis of Paul on God's "GIFT" & your obvious fear in applying it to your childish circle within a circle scenario reveals that there is more than just garden variety spiritual ignorance going on in your efforts to deceive:
Rom 5:18
¶... by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Let me guess you are member of the only circle that was targeted by God to be offered the GIFT OF GOD ?
All other being members of the circle that God purposely decided would never be offered the GIFT OF GOD?

 

[GodsGrace]

What ever is ordained to happen, will certainly happen, but you did not cause it to happen

Wait. Don't you believe God causes everything to happen?
This is what the reformed believe. Aren't you calvinist in your beliefs?
If you believe God predestines everything, then He's CAUSING everything to happen.
Could you please explain better because I'm told I don't understand calvinism and it always seems to me
that the other member doesn't really understand it.

yes different.... you see it as looking forward, seeing what will happen, what action, what activity.

Biblically it is a selection of persons. I have posted this before...whom....not their actions whom

I don't see anywhere in the NT that states that God chooses PERSONS to be saved.
Could you post some verse or verses?

God predestines the HOW someone gets saved, not the WHO.
Ephesians 1:4
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons, through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His good pleasure.

Please show me where in the above it states WHO will be saved.
I see the HOW and I'll put it in green.

1. HE CHOSE US IN HIM: God, before the foundation of the world CHOSE US (the saved) IN CHRIST.
God chose us to be saved IN CHRIST ... this is a HOW. Through Christ we would be saved.
The NT teaches, BELIEVE IN CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

2. WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM: God chose us (the saved) to be holy and blameless ---
This is not a WHO but HOW we would be after being saved.

3. HE PREDESTINED US TO ADOPTION AS SONS: God predestines that we would be as sons...
this is not the WHO but HOW we would be after salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
[IF God chooses who will be saved, what would be the reason for Jesus to die?]

Could you please explain why Jesus had to die if God picks who will be saved?
What could the possible reason be?
Just to say that it's to pay for the sins of the sheep makes no sense.
The sheep, in your theology, don't get to pick Jesus for their salvation...
God has chosen the sheep for their salvation.
So why is any payment necessary?

To pay for the sins of the sheep. Once elected the sins have to be paid for.

[I don't believe babies are born in sin.]

you are wrong on this...All sinned at one point in time, that was the fall

Agreed. We all sinned at one point.
How does a baby sin? §All they do is sleep and eat.
I'm serious...HOW do they sin?
Why doesn't the NT specifically say that babies are to be baptized so that
their sin could be forgiven?

[Babies are NOT born with any sin.]

All sinned and died in Adam...a biblical fact and reality rom3:23

Romans 3:23-27
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

verse 22 We have righteousness through faith in Christ FOR ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
Do babies believe?

verse 26 God is the justifier OF THE ONE WHO HAS FAITH. Can a baby have faith?

verse 28 We are justified by faith. A baby cannot have faith.

Because of these verses, and others that state that adults were baptized, a baby cannot be damned because he does not believe.

How would that be a just God? It would not.

Also, being born with a sin nature
is different
than having commited sin.

A dog may have a very mean nature,
but until he attacks someone, he will not be put down.

A nature is different than a sin.
A person has not committed a sin until he has committed a sin.
Babies cannot sin.

Galatians 9:15-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

​

[They are not capable of committing sin and they are not IMPUTED with Adam's sin.]

The bible teaches it, it is undeniable; rom5:12-21

Romans 5:12-21
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

DEATH SPREAD TO ALL MEN. AND ALL MEN ALWAYS SINNED, EVEN BEFORE MOSES.
BUT GOD SPELLED IT OUT TO MOSES AND MADE IT BE KNOWN THAT SIN EXISTED.
WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT BABIES SIN?
SORRY FOR THE CAPS.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

AGAIN, A BABY CANNOT TRANSGRESS THE LAW.
A BABY CANNOT BE LURED AND ENTICED BY HIS OWN DESIRE.
JAMES 1:14-15
But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

[We are only responsible for our own sins.]
no...all will pay for sins they have committed but we all died in Adam

What do you mean no?
We are not responsible only for our own sins?
You mean I could be responsible for YOUR sins??
Please explain.

 

[Tenchi]

 

[Free]

There is far too much trolling and personal attacks occurring in this thread by both sides. Any more and offenders will be removed from this discussion. Stick to the topic and addressing arguments.

Thank you.