Predestination

[Iconoclast]

Wait. Don't you believe God causes everything to happen?

Ding ,Ding, Ding! we have a winner! No!... allow me to clarify my friend.

This is what the reformed believe.

No! W...I will explain this once again, then if time permits you can go back and see how many times you have read these answers with your eyes, said you understand, but were missing it!

Aren't you calvinist in your beliefs?

I like and use labels as they save time, but sometimes we need to define terms. I am a Reformed Baptist who is also a Calvinist. I am steadfast on all 5 pts, especially the L , Limited Atonement, Particular Redemption, Definite Atonement

If you believe God predestines everything,

I do not. I have posted 5 or 6 times now...each of the terms while similar are yet different. When you mix them together and change the meanings...you miss the God-given meaning. That is what I see going on.

then He's CAUSING everything to happen.

No! I often quote from the 1689 confession of faith for this reason. Those pastors and teachers took months reviewing the exact wording they derived from scripture.
If God caused everything...that would mean He is the author of sin! That is a theological third rail, fatal. It is not possible
. So every time you post such a thought...it is dead wrong in a way that is beyond repair. Anything you say after that is built on a foundation of sand.
you and a few others say- he causes EVERYTHING, HE CAUSES EVERYTHING.
if we were face to face, or on the phone, I would do that thing where I put my hand up and said an emphatic...NO

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2

Could you please explain better because I'm told I don't understand calvinism and it always seems to me
that the other member doesn't really understand it.

This post is attempting to do that once again. You seem to be an intelligent person, but I think you are reading over the posts and links too fast. Slow down a bit. We are all telling you, you are missing it. Stop and see why we are saying it.
Identify what we say you are missing. after that, you may agree, or not, but you will know what we are pointing out to you. God does predestine, God does cause.......but not everything.
here is the confessional statement again;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[Iconoclast]

pt3.

I don't see anywhere in the NT that states that God chooses PERSONS to be saved.
Could you post some verse or verses?

You say you cannot see things in scripture. They are there but you have to know how to look.
You state this, you have also posted that you do not see the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Grace.
What am I saying?
There are words and theological terms that we do not see written as if the Apostles were writing directly to you in a letter. The scripture does not say...W...here is the direct answer to your question in the wording you will find acceptable.
let me illustrate...can you show me in direct wording the word; trinity, bible, and rapture?
You will say...No, but it is clearly taught and then you will compile a long list of verses that teach those topics.

God predestines the HOW someone gets saved, not the WHO.

No! he most definately does both. The WHO FIRST, THEN THE HOW

Ephesians 1:4
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons, through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His good pleasure.

Please show me where in the above it states WHO will be saved.
I see the HOW and I'll put it in green.

I like how you are trying to illustrate your view.It helps.i do not see it as shouting as some complain about!.
I get your are trying to clarify.

1. HE CHOSE US IN HIM: God, before the foundation of the world CHOSE US (the saved) IN CHRIST.

Yes....each individual person.Each living stone. He knows us by name.
1pet2:
2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Any local church...are individual kingdom members who assemble. The church is a called-out assembly of individual believers..ecclesia
.

God chose us to be saved IN CHRIST ... this is a HOW.

Yes. He chose us as individuals. He saw us as fallen in adam, dead in sin, but chose us to be in Christ, as surety, and mediator in the Covenant of redemption. Hebrews 2:11-16, 7:22-25
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Through Christ we would be saved.
The NT teaches, BELIEVE IN CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Yes. We are saved by individually being placed in a saving Union with Christ. this is central. All believers believe because God has elected them In Union with Christ before the world was. At a point in time, they are individually quickened to life by the Spirit, getting a new heart, enabling them to repent and believe.

2. WE SHOULD BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS BEFORE HIM: God chose us (the saved) to be holy and blameless ---
This is not a WHO but HOW we would be after being saved.

The Us is individuals that have assembled as a church.

3. HE PREDESTINED US TO ADOPTION AS SONS: God predestines that we would be as sons...
this is not the WHO but HOW we would be after salvation.

I have posted Rom 8;29-30 several times, I highlighted this with different colors and larger font sizes...you looked and missed it...here again.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

whom, them,whom , them,Whom, them this in the reformed world is known as the golden chain of redemption of redemption ...https://livingbyfaithtravel.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/b041135f-3195-476a-a964-32b1bf280fe6.jpeg?w=640

 

[Iconoclast]

Interacted with him for over 4 years...he is easily dismantled as he does philosophy more than scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Something funny.
I've been studying calvinism for about 10 years.
Someone on this forum, maybe a couple of months ago,
told me that if he wanted to debate with Leighton Flowers, he would. (meaning he didn't want to debate with me).
So I looked for Flowers on YouTube.
Whoa!
He was a calvinist for 10 years.
I think he talks way too much and can't watch an entire program,,,
but I look through his stuff and it's really good in that he explains things really well.

What I thought was just too fantastic, is that he said that calvinists tell him he doesn't understand calvinism.
Could you imagine?
And, by jove, this is what I'M told all the time.

I don't really understand this.
I think I know it really well.

 

[Iconoclast]

Something funny.
I've been studying calvinism for about 10 years.
Someone on this forum, maybe a couple of months ago,
told me that if he wanted to debate with Leighton Flowers, he would. (meaning he didn't want to debate with me).
So I looked for Flowers on YouTube.
Whoa!
He was a calvinist for 10 years.
I think he talks way too much and can't watch an entire program,,,
but I look through his stuff and it's really good in that he explains things really well.

What I thought was just too fantastic, is that he said that calvinists tell him he doesn't understand calvinism.
Could you imagine?
And, by jove, this is what I'M told all the time.

I don't really understand this.
I think I know it really well.

yes, we told him he did not understand calvinism for about 4 years because he did not, and gives no evidence that he ever was a calvinist,,,He went by the name Skandelon from at least 2011, to 2015

 

[Tenchi]

Yeah, I'm not relying on Leighton's detractors for an accurate description of his knowledge or biblicality.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ding ,Ding, Ding! we have a winner! No!... allow me to clarify my friend.

No! W...I will explain this once again, then if time permits you can go back and see how many times you have read these answers with your eyes, said you understand, but were missing it!


I like and use labels as they save time, but sometimes we need to define terms. I am a Reformed Baptist who is also a Calvinist. I am steadfast on all 5 pts, especially the L , Limited Atonement, Particular Redemption, Definite Atonement


I do not. I have posted 5 or 6 times now...each of the terms while similar are yet different. When you mix them together and change the meanings...you miss the God-given meaning. That is what I see going on.

You're talking about the terms:
foreknowledge
ordain
predestine
and the others, one or two.
What I'm saying is that, except for FOREKNOWLEDGE, they all mean the same.
You don't agree with this?
You believe that if God ordains something, He's NOT predestinating it?
It means the same Iconoclast !
Ordain means to order something OFFICIALLY.
This means that God ORDERS SOMETHING to take place.

Foreknowledge means that God KNOWS what's going to happen BUT he doesn't predestine it to happen.

The WCF: Doesn't the below mean anything to you and others that are reformed?

Chapter 3: God’s eternal decisions​

1. From before the beginning of time, God has decided and put into place everything that happens. He makes these decisions freely by His wise and holy will. Nothing He’s put into place can change.

Still, He orders everything in such a way that He’s not the author of sin. And He doesn’t force us to do things against our will. He is the root cause of everything, but this doesn’t mean secondary causes are not involved – in fact, God is the reason other causes exist.

2. God knows everything that can happen based on any conditions, but He doesn’t decide things or put them in place by looking into the future and seeing what’s going to happen.

3. To show His glory, God has ordered events so that some people and some angels are destined to eternal life, and others to eternal death.

4. He has counted and chosen a certain number of people and angels for each destiny. This number can’t be increased or decreased.

5. God selected people for eternal life, and He’s chosen them in Christ for everlasting glory. He did this before the beginning of time, in line with His eternal and unchanging purpose, and His secret design.

He chose us with free grace and love, not because He saw ahead of time our faith or our good works, or how well we’d stick to them. In fact, nothing in us caused Him to choose us – it was all down to His praise-worthy, amazing grace.

6. In the same way that God – by His eternal and free will – chose us for glory, He also planned the way that we’d be brought to Him. We all fell when Adam fell. But as God’s chosen people, we have been redeemed by Christ, and at the right time were called by the Holy Spirit to have faith in Christ.

We’re declared innocent, adopted as God’s children, and made clean. Through faith, we are kept for salvation by God’s power.

Only those God has chosen are called and saved in this way. Only they have been redeemed by Christ.

7. God chose to overlook the rest of mankind, choosing to dishonour them and judge them for their sin. God can show or withhold mercy as He wants – difficult to understand, but this is His will. In doing this, He shows His glorious justice and His kingly power over His creatures.

8. The truth that God determines our destinies is a great mystery, a teaching that should be used wisely and handled with care. We should pay attention to God’s word and obey it. By hearing and obeying, we can be assured that we’re called and chosen to eternal life.

This teaching gives us many reasons to praise, reverence, and admire God. It helps us to be humble and diligent, and it’s a real comfort to everyone who truly obeys the gospel.

Chapter 5: Providence​

1. God, our great Creator, holds up all things, directs them, and tears them down. From the biggest to the smallest, He governs everything. This wise and holy care is called God’s “providence”.

God governs according to His perfect knowledge of everything in the future, and in line with His free and unchanging will. His providence deserves our praise – for His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.

2. God plans and knows everything before it happens. He’s the “first cause”, so everything goes according to His plan, without fail or change. However, by this same providence He makes events happen using secondary causes. These are “cause and effect” causes – events depend on them, or happen freely despite them, or seem to be forced by them.

3. God usually uses secondary causes or “means” to govern events. But if He wants to, He’s free to work without these ordinary means, or above them, or against them.

4. God’s providence shows us His great power, His hard-to-understand wisdom, and His infinite goodness. This in turn shows us everything His providence covers – even the first fall of mankind, and all other sins of people and angels.

He doesn’t just give these things permission to happen however they want. No, it’s a wise, limited permission. He governs even these events in various ways for His own holy reasons. However, the sinfulness of these things comes only from the creatures that do them, not from God Himself. God is holy and righteous, and never originates or approves of sin – in fact, He can’t.

5. Our wise, righteous, and gracious God often lets us experience different temptations and feel the effects of our dirty hearts. But He only lets this happen for a time, in order to punish us for our sins, and to reveal how rotten and deceitful our hearts really are.

These trials humble us, and lift us up to help us lean on God more consistently. They make us more careful to guard against sin in the future, not to mention help us in many other ways.

6. God is a righteous judge, and He blinds and hardens wicked people for their sins. He keeps His grace from them – grace that would normally give them spiritual wisdom and changed hearts.

Sometimes He even takes away gifts they’d previously had, and exposes them to things their wicked hearts can turn into sin. He lets them fall into temptation and run with their evil desires, even letting Satan overpower them. Soon enough, they harden themselves using the same things God uses to soften others.

7. God’s providence governs all creatures in a general way, but in a very special way it cares for His Church. In fact, God works all things for the good of the Church.

No! I often quote from the 1689 confession of faith for this reason. Those pastors and teachers took months reviewing the exact wording they derived from scripture.
If God caused everything...that would mean He is the author of sin! That is a theological third rail, fatal. It is not possible
. So every time you post such a thought...it is dead wrong in a way that is beyond repair. Anything you say after that is built on a foundation of sand.
you and a few others say- he causes EVERYTHING, HE CAUSES EVERYTHING.
if we were face to face, or on the phone, I would do that thing where I put my hand up and said an emphatic...NO

The top reformed theologians state that God created sin....I certainly don't believe this.
Is Piper wrong? MaCarthur? Sproul?

 

[GodsGrace]

pt2

This post is attempting to do that once again. You seem to be an intelligent person, but I think you are reading over the posts and links too fast. Slow down a bit. We are all telling you, you are missing it. Stop and see why we are saying it.
Identify what we say you are missing. after that, you may agree, or not, but you will know what we are pointing out to you. God does predestine, God does cause.......but not everything.
here is the confessional statement again;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

I've read the WCF Iconoclast.
I've read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (not all of it !)

I'm basing my comments on the above....look you posted the same chapters I did.
But I also posted chapter 5.

Here's the problem, as I see it:
Chapter 3 paragraph 1 states that God has decreed all things.
However that does not include sin....
It doesn't matter that the WCF wants to soften things up and say this.
If God created all things, it means He created sin too.
Piper and MaCarthur agree and also Sproul.
Who should I believe YOU and others on this forum...or THEM? Your top theologians.
How many times have I posted Calvin?
Here it is again:


Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3



I concede more--that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5


By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5


Why can't the reformed on these threads ADMIT that they are reformed?
Chapter 3 paragraph 1 even states that SECOND CAUSES are not taken away but established.
We had a discussion on second causes with you (I think) and this is exactly what I stated.

You can end this conversation whenever you want to BTW, it would just be nice to know why I'm more of a calvinist than you are!

(I'm not a calvinist).

 

[GodsGrace]

yes, we told him he did not understand calvinism for about 4 years because he did not, and gives no evidence that he ever was a calvinist,,,He went by the name Skandelon from at least 2011, to 2015

See I,
you think nobody understands calvinism but you.
How could this be?

 

[GodsGrace]

pt3.


You say you cannot see things in scripture. They are there but you have to know how to look.
You state this, you have also posted that you do not see the Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Grace.
What am I saying?
There are words and theological terms that we do not see written as if the Apostles were writing directly to you in a letter. The scripture does not say...W...here is the direct answer to your question in the wording you will find acceptable.
let me illustrate...can you show me in direct wording the word; trinity, bible, and rapture?
You will say...No, but it is clearly taught and then you will compile a long list of verses that teach those topics.

No! he most definately does both. The WHO FIRST, THEN THE HOW

I like how you are trying to illustrate your view.It helps.i do not see it as shouting as some complain about!.
I get your are trying to clarify.

Yes....each individual person.Each living stone. He knows us by name.
1pet2:
2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Any local church...are individual kingdom members who assemble. The church is a called-out assembly of individual believers..ecclesia
.



Yes. He chose us as individuals. He saw us as fallen in adam, dead in sin, but chose us to be in Christ, as surety, and mediator in the Covenant of redemption. Hebrews 2:11-16, 7:22-25
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Yes. We are saved by individually being placed in a saving Union with Christ. this is central. All believers believe because God has elected them In Union with Christ before the world was. At a point in time, they are individually quickened to life by the Spirit, getting a new heart, enabling them to repent and believe.


The Us is individuals that have assembled as a church.

I have posted Rom 8;29-30 several times, I highlighted this with different colors and larger font sizes...you looked and missed it...here again.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

whom, them,whom , them,Whom, them this in the reformed world is known as the golden chain of redemption of redemption ...https://livingbyfaithtravel.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/b041135f-3195-476a-a964-32b1bf280fe6.jpeg?w=640

It's midnight here.
To be continued tomorrow.
I look forward to this since it has to do with scripture.
I do think it's much better to read scripture than the WCF,
or Calvin. But that's my personal opinion...I do believe the WCF concurs with the Institutes,
it's just presented in a different way - but the outcome is the same.

 

[Iconoclast]

I've read the WCF Iconoclast.

here is the real one, whatever version you posted is inaccurate.

Westminster Confession of Faith - WestminsterStandards.org

I. Of the Holy Scripture1. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; (Rom. 2:14–15, Rom. 1:19–20, Ps. 19:1–3, Rom. 1:32, Rom. 2:1) yet they are not sufficient to give that...

westminsterstandards.org

I've read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion (not all of it !)

I do not derive my doctrines from Calvin, but rather from scripture.
If I look at Human guides I would recommend,
John Murray-Redemption, Accomplished and Applied,
You will not find one sentence in that book that you could unravel.
I would also recommend:
A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by W.R, Downing.
It is totally Christ-centered and contemporary.
J.L.Dagg Manual of Theology.
J.P.Boyce Abstract of Principles
Louis Berkof Systematic Theology
John Owen Death of Death in The death of Christ.
Hugh Martin on the Atonement
Sinclair Ferguson on Know your Christian Life......these speak to me, miles ahead of Calvin.
There are many, many more.
My "Calvinism" will be found to be mirrored in their writings.
You made a comment as if I stood alone, but I assure you I am quite mainstream.
I and others dismantled Leighton Flowers day in and day out on BB.It is there in the archives between 2011 and 2015
Some of these titles can be found online, for free

I'm basing my comments on the above....look you posted the same chapters I did.
But I also posted chapter 5.

Here's the problem, as I see it:
Chapter 3 paragraph 1 states that God has decreed all things.
However that does not include sin....

W...moving forward, quote the real confession, I quote from the Baptist Confession of 1689. here is the actual quote.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

 

[Iconoclast]

It doesn't matter that the WCF wants to soften things up and say this.
If God created all things, it means He created sin too.
Piper and MaCarthur agree and also Sproul.
.

You can end this conversation whenever you want to BTW, it would just be nice to know why I'm more of a calvinist than you are!

I have no need to end the conversation as it is shifting back to correcting caricatures caused by mixing up the words. You did not address Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.

(I'm not a calvinist).

We know...We read your posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

here is the real one, whatever version you posted is inaccurate.

Westminster Confession of Faith - WestminsterStandards.org

I. Of the Holy Scripture1. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; (Rom. 2:14–15, Rom. 1:19–20, Ps. 19:1–3, Rom. 1:32, Rom. 2:1) yet they are not sufficient to give that...

westminsterstandards.org

I do not derive my doctrines from Calvin, but rather from scripture.
If I look at Human guides I would recommend,
John Murray-Redemption, Accomplished and Applied,
You will not find one sentence in that book that you could unravel.
I would also recommend:
A Baptist Catechism with Commentary, by W.R, Downing.
It is totally Christ-centered and contemporary.
J.L.Dagg Manual of Theology.
J.P.Boyce Abstract of Principles
Louis Berkof Systematic Theology
John Owen Death of Death in The death of Christ.
Hugh Martin on the Atonement
Sinclair Ferguson on Know your Christian Life......these speak to me, miles ahead of Calvin.
There are many, many more.
My "Calvinism" will be found to be mirrored in their writings.
You made a comment as if I stood alone, but I assure you I am quite mainstream.
I and others dismantled Leighton Flowers day in and day out on BB.It is there in the archives between 2011 and 2015
Some of these titles can be found online, for free

W...moving forward, quote the real confession, I quote from the Baptist Confession of 1689. here is the actual quote.

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Good morning,
This conversation will soon come to an end.
You'll find that I don't go on forever.

Some comments:
I use the WCF. The one I posted is in modern English. I took the time to compare with the old and it translates perfectly. I have both.

I tagged you into a post with another member.
What I said to her is what I find confusing about some reformed believers.

There's a member here that is a 5 point calvinist and states so. I respect him and we have a good rapport. Why don't YOU realize that you believe what Calvin taught? You may not have read the Institutes, but you believe what they state.

I've been studying this for many years. I never knew who Flowers was till you brought him up.

I'm just trying to understand, I'm not so presumptuous as to tell you what you believe!
Plus I'd be breaking the TOS! 2

Can we just go over item 1 above when I'm at my computer? Then we'll end this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no need to end the conversation as it is shifting back to correcting caricatures caused by mixing up the words. You did not address Rom8:29-30 whom, them, whom , them, whom, them..ie, the persons not their actions.

We know...We read your posts.

I thought we went through Romans 8.
When I'm at the computer. Can't write on this cell.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You will not find a single person on earth today who will tell you that their salvation came from hearing a message of predestination .
And in all the multitude of Heaven you will never find even one who will confess
that that their salvation came from hearing a message of being predestined .
Not from one on earth.
And not from a one in heaven will you ever hear that .

" For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ , for it is the power of God unto salvation."
Romans 1:16

 

[Dorothy Mae]

pt2

This post is attempting to do that once again. You seem to be an intelligent person, but I think you are reading over the posts and links too fast. Slow down a bit. We are all telling you, you are missing it. Stop and see why we are saying it.
Identify what we say you are missing. after that, you may agree, or not, but you will know what we are pointing out to you. God does predestine, God does cause.......but not everything.
here is the confessional statement again;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree​

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

What DOES He cause and what does He not cause? Be specific and answer in your own words please.

 

[Iconoclast]

You will not find a single person on earth today who will tell you that their salvation came from hearing a message of predestination .
And in all the multitude of Heaven you will never find even one who will confess
that that their salvation came from hearing a message of being predestined .
Not from one on earth.
And not from a one in heaven will you ever hear that .

" For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ , for it is the power of God unto salvation."
Romans 1:16

Hello CL,
let's look forward into Heaven and see what they do say
No need to speculate.
All in Heaven will share this testimony;

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Here in Rev.19 they praise our Sovereign God for His righteous judgment;
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[GodsGrace]

You will not find a single person on earth today who will tell you that their salvation came from hearing a message of predestination .
And in all the multitude of Heaven you will never find even one who will confess
that that their salvation came from hearing a message of being predestined .
Not from one on earth.
And not from a one in heaven will you ever hear that .

" For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ , for it is the power of God unto salvation."
Romans 1:16

Very good point !

 

[Iconoclast]

What DOES He cause and what does He not cause? Be specific and answer in your own words please.

God has an eternal purpose.Eph3:9-11
Everything He has purposed will come to pass exactly as designed Isa46:9-11
God is Perfect and Holy in All that He is, ie His love is holy and perfect, same for His wisdom, power,
wrath knowledge...all His attributes are Holy...perfect
Nothing exists outside of God's control.
God causes dead sinners to come to Jesus by the means of grace He has ordained before the world was.
2tim1:
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
To do this He has revealed that He is in total control of fallen angels and fallen men who oppose him. These fallen beings commit all manner of sin and evil against God and His elect saints.
God is not nor can be the author of sin as He is pure and Holy in all things.
Yet these fallen beings have the capacity to do such things and they try.
rev12:
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,
and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
It is satan who tries to kill, steal, and destroy, He uses fallen angels, and fallen men and women to attack the elect children the Father has given to the Son.
God gives believers the victory over it.
Eph6:
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: