Preterism & Biblical Prophecy

[Zinc]

Re: Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

I believe that text was fulfilled in the events of the first century. But I want to be absolutely clear: this does not mean that I do not believe that will come again in the future.

Your second sentence here actually looks a bit unclear.

To be crystal clear, are you saying that Matthew 24:30-31 was first century and doesn't speak of the 2nd Coming?

But something like 1 Thess. 4 is about a future 2nd Coming?

Do you believe in a rapture?

I'm guessing you mean pre-trib which I don't think is Biblical.

In any event, I believe that it is fundamentally the strength of the exegesis that matters, not the "tradition".

A point I would make is that early sources aren't just a matter of "tradition" but are good evidence for how language was being used and understood around the time period.

So if someone wants to interpret against the evidence of contemporary sources, or sources close-ish to that time, then I'm thinking that they need something very solid on their side.

I would not disagree with the assertion that "preterism "spreads" taking in more and more of the scripture". But that is not surprising if elements of the preterist position are, in fact, correct. We should not be surprised that scripture displays an internal unity and coherence.

The point the article was making was that:

"For now modern postmillennialists are resisting hyper-preterism but this paper will contend that eventually their system must collapse under its own inconsistency. It must succumb to the gangrene of the Philetian and Hymenaean heresy."

Preterism will spread to become "radical preterism". Partial preterism is inconsistent. When you go down that path, some are going to take it to the conclusion of "consistent preterism".

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

Preterism will spread to become "radical preterism". Partial preterism is inconsistent. When you go down that path, some are going to take it to the conclusion of "consistent preterism".

That's right. Full Preterism is consistent. It is also the "new reformation" in eschatology.

If the "resurrection" they were expecting was physical, then they surely wouldn't have missed it! But still, Paul said it hadn't quite happened yet- but that God was about to (mellonon) judge the living & the dead. (2Tim.4:1)

 

[n2thelight]

You are already eternally alive if you believe in Him, and passing from this life simply begins your next one: there is no "waiting in the grave" to be raised. You pass from LIFE to LIFE, not from DEATH to LIFE or "SLEEP" to LIFE!!!

There is absolutely NO scripture to support your teaching except that which you've twisted beyond any and all apostolic meaning. None.

Still did not answer the question,why are we still in flesh bodies....

Paul said we would not all sleep(DIE)but we shall all be changed.....meaning from flesh to spirit,when?at the 7th trump,so when does the death of the flesh stop?

You keep saying when we go from this life to the next,my point is the fact that had the 7th trump sounded we ALL now would be in that next that you keep talking about....So why are we not?

Also those that have died(sleep)in Christ,come back with Christ,so where are they....

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

 

[jasoncran]

sigh. lehigh3 has to ignore the whole nature of the curse. it was on all things in the natural world.not just mans spirit. creation was changed twice because of man's sin.

 

[Lehigh3]

sigh. lehigh3 has to ignore the whole nature of the curse. it was on all things in the natural world.not just mans spirit. creation was changed twice because of man's sin.

Well, sigh, yes, but I understand that nature changed (was cursed) only once from what we saw God made it on the 6th day. Both man & beast had herbs for food but after the fall of man too, nature changed- it was set it motion by God. Predatory animals would evolve & man would not be immune from diseases & dangers, etc. Nature was set in motion.
Redemption only came for man's spiritual state. Blessings & Cursings in Deuteronomy shows that God had mankind's healing in mind & not nature's.

I realized these Biblical implications when I read a bestselling book called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" by Harold S. Kushner ( a rabbi).

 

[Drew]

Re: Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

Your second sentence here actually looks a bit unclear.

To be crystal clear, are you saying that Matthew 24:30-31 was first century and doesn't speak of the 2nd Coming?

You are right, I let a few words slip in my original response. And I am indeed saying that Matthew 24:30-31 was first century and doesn't speak of the 2nd Coming.

Here is part of the reason. In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 when He uses the phrase "the Son of Man coming on the clouds". What is Daniel 7 about. It is not about a descent of the Son of Man (as would be the case if you see Matthew 24:30-31 as describing the second coming. It is instead an ascent in vindication following the defeat of the "beast".

Now despite what one might think from another of my recent posts, I believe that there is at least one sense in which Jesus is referring to His imminent defeat of Satan on the cross. And consistent with that other post (which you may or may not have read), I believe Jesus also sees the 4th beast as simultaneously representing Israel. But there is no real contradiction in these perspective - as per arguments that will need to wait, I believe that Jesus fundamentally sees Satan as having "taken up residence in Israel". So to see the 4th beast as both Satan and Israel is entirely Biblically coherent.

Jesus is not talking about a second coming here. He is instead invoking the Daniel 7 tradition and predicting that He Jesus will be vindicated in relation to his treatment by the Jewish nation. What form will this vindication take? Several forms: the defeat of the nation of Israel at the hand of the Romans and, of course more importantly, the defeat of the power of evil at the cross. In Daniel 7, what happens to the son of Man character? He is given a seat next to the "Ancient of Days" and given authority to rule the world. We know from a range of other texts that this happened 2000 years ago.

I plan to rework this disjointed treatment, but I think there is overwhelming evidence through the invokation of Daniel 7 that Jesus is talking about His imminent defeat of Satan on the cross and the "coming on the clouds", consistent with Daniel 7, is an upward exhultation in vindication, not a "second coming descent from heaven to earth.

 

[Sinthesis]

Still did not answer the question,why are we still in flesh bodies....

Why was Jesus' resurrection into that of a flesh body?...with scars no less!

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

You are right, I let a few words slip in my original response. And I am indeed saying that Matthew 24:30-31 was first century and doesn't speak of the 2nd Coming.

Here is part of the reason. In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 when He uses the phrase "the Son of Man coming on the clouds". What is Daniel 7 about. It is not about a descent of the Son of Man (as would be the case if you see Matthew 24:30-31 as describing the second coming. It is instead an ascent in vindication following the defeat of the "beast".

Now despite what one might think from another of my recent posts, I believe that there is at least one sense in which Jesus is referring to His imminent defeat of Satan on the cross. And consistent with that other post (which you may or may not have read), I believe Jesus also sees the 4th beast as simultaneously representing Israel. But there is no real contradiction in these perspective - as per arguments that will need to wait, I believe that Jesus fundamentally sees Satan as having "taken up residence in Israel". So to see the 4th beast as both Satan and Israel is entirely Biblically coherent.

Jesus is not talking about a second coming here. He is instead invoking the Daniel 7 tradition and predicting that He Jesus will be vindicated in relation to his treatment by the Jewish nation. What form will this vindication take? Several forms: the defeat of the nation of Israel at the hand of the Romans and, of course more importantly, the defeat of the power of evil at the cross. In Daniel 7, what happens to the son of Man character? He is given a seat next to the "Ancient of Days" and given authority to rule the world. We know from a range of other texts that this happened 2000 years ago.

I plan to rework this disjointed treatment, but I think there is overwhelming evidence through the invokation of Daniel 7 that Jesus is talking about His imminent defeat of Satan on the cross and the "coming on the clouds", consistent with Daniel 7, is an upward exhultation in vindication, not a "second coming descent from heaven to earth.

Daniel 7 includes both the 1st & second coming of Christ.
You are correct to say that Satan was "defeated" at the cross, but Jesus said he was still coming & had nothing on Me. In Daniel 7 we see there is more & Satan's power is annihilated along with the "beast's dominion" which was the dominion & power of Satan.(as per Rev.13)
True Dan.7:13-14, Christ was caught up to heaven, where the Father would present Him with the kingdom, and with all power on heaven & earth (Matt.28:18)
But also note that at His "second appearing" He transferred the kingdom of God to other nations (Matt.21:43) The kingdom could not have been established around Pentecost, bc Christ had just been taken up to heaven.
Now, Dan.7 also includes & speaks of a judgment where a court will sit, confirming Dan.7:9 &10- & accordingly, would be during the period of the "eleventh horn." And yet, when the court sits, his dominion is taken away, annihilated, & destroyed forever.

His dominion referred to the dominion & the power of Satan. Remember that this is the time of the 11th horn of the 4th beast. This is close to AD66-67 period.
Paul told the Roman Christians that God " would crush Satan under your feet shortly." (Rom.16:20) John also saw in Rev., the devil being bound in ch. 20. Evidently the binding took place at the cross. Rev.20:7-9 informs us that Satan was released for a short while & the reason for his release.
Satan was used by God as God's instrument for the 3 1/2 yr. war with Israel. Rev.20:10 tells us that Satan who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire, forever & ever.
So, Satan who had the power of death was destroyed & that confirms his final judgment.

 

[Zinc]

Re: Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

In Matthew 24:30-31, Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 when He uses the phrase "the Son of Man coming on the clouds".

I have replied to this in the "Partial Preterism" thread that I started. As we have a sub-forum, I'm guessing we are allowed more than one thread.

 

[reba]

Yes you are allowed more than one thread.

There seems to be many different views under the umbrella of preterism. So now preterism has its own place! reba

 

[Lehigh3]

Re: Preterist Gangrene: Its Diagnosis, Prognosis and Cure

Ate Broccoli! past tense

Ha. ha. Semantics. "AM EATING" Broccoli right now too! (with linguini alfredo) :

 

[n2thelight]

Why was Jesus' resurrection into that of a flesh body?...with scars no less!

So are you saying your body is like that of Christ if so why do you still get sick,why do you still feel pain why will you still die one day?

When the 7th trump sounds this age of the flesh will be over,this is the change that P[aul speaks of

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Why are you not changed?

Question remains why are we still in flesh bodies......????

I know you or any other preterist can't answer this question for the simple fact that the 7th trump has not sounded and therefore Christ has not returned Ad70 or any other time after the first...Just wanted to see what answers I would get.....

 

[Sinthesis]

So are you saying your body is like that of Christ if so why do you still get sick,why do you still feel pain why will you still die one day?

Christ felt pain; died; might even have had the flu. Jesus showed that one doesn't need a glorified body to do the work of Christ. You'll get your reward once the race is done. In the meantime, behave as if you are a part of the 'Body of Christ' and do as He would.

When the 7th trump sounds this age of the flesh will be over,this is the change that P[aul speaks of

No...it is not. At least not in the simplistic way you expect.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery;We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mysterious Mysteries are not meant to be easy. Keep trying.

Why are you not changed?

I am! You're not?

Question remains why are we still in flesh bodies......????

Because we still have work to do.

I know you or any other preterist can't answer this question for the simple fact that the 7th trump has not sounded and therefore Christ has not returned Ad70 or any other time after the first...Just wanted to see what answers I would get.....

It has and it hasn't. He has and He hasn't. It depends on the context. For example, when did Christ first come to YOU?

 

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by n2thelight
So are you saying your body is like that of Christ if so why do you still get sick,why do you still feel pain why will you still die one day?

Sinthesis

Christ felt pain; died; might even have had the flu. Jesus showed that one doesn't need a glorified body to do the work of Christ. You'll get your reward once the race is done. In the meantime, behave as if you are a part of the 'Body of Christ' and do as He would.

Everybody will die the first death or either be changed.Paul said we will not all sleep(die)but we shall all be changed.....I didn't say one needs a glorified body to do the work of Christ,my whole point is the fact that had He came already,you would now have that glorified body.That's the change Paul spoke of,that change happens at the 7th trump,which is the last,so,if that happened in 70ad,why do you not have yours??????

Originally Posted by n2thelight
When the 7th trump sounds this age of the flesh will be over,this is the change that P[aul speaks of

No...it is not. At least not in the simplistic way you expect.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery;We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mysterious Mysteries are not meant to be easy. Keep trying.

Simple is best sometimes and this is that time

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are known, then it is no longer a mystery. All people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies. Each of us have two bodies, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body is done away with.


I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The time that it will take to change all the physical or natural bodies on this earth into their spiritual bodies will be faster than you can wink your eye. It is instant. Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world.


Originally Posted by n2thelight
Why are you not changed?

I am! You're not?

So if your changed,my question still stands,why are you still in the flesh?

Because we still have work to do.

The work we do after Christ returns will be in our spiritual bodies,where we reign with Christ from Jerusalem

Originally Posted by n2thelight
I know you or any other preterist can't answer this question for the simple fact that the 7th trump has not sounded and therefore Christ has not returned Ad70 or any other time after the first...Just wanted to see what answers I would get.....

It has and it hasn't. He has and He hasn't. It depends on the context. For example, when did Christ first come to YOU?

Not good,either He has or He hasn't,can't be both and since you have not yet put off this flesh,He has not,period....

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Now since this takes place either when you sleep(die)or when Christ returns at the last(7th)trump can you please tell me how could the trump have sounded in 70ad,and you can answer my original question..............

Why are we still in flesh bodies???????????????????????????????

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So are you saying your body is like that of Christ if so why do you still get sick,why do you still feel pain why will you still die one day?

When the 7th trump sounds this age of the flesh will be over,this is the change that P[aul speaks of

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Why are you not changed?

Question remains why are we still in flesh bodies......????

I know you or any other preterist can't answer this question for the simple fact that the 7th trump has not sounded and therefore Christ has not returned Ad70 or any other time after the first...Just wanted to see what answers I would get.....

We are not changed because what Paul was speaking of here was NOT BEING SPOKEN TO US!! He was speaking exclusively to the saints of the 1st century who were awaiting the return of Jesus in their lifetimes. THEY were changed when he returned. Expecting that you or I, or even Polycarp, Eusebius, or anyone living beyond that generation would be changed would be reading something (namely oneself) into a passage that has very little to do with you.

 

[n2thelight]

We are not changed because what Paul was speaking of here was NOT BEING SPOKEN TO US!! He was speaking exclusively to the saints of the 1st century who were awaiting the return of Jesus in their lifetimes. THEY were changed when he returned. Expecting that you or I, or even Polycarp, Eusebius, or anyone living beyond that generation would be changed would be reading something (namely oneself) into a passage that has very little to do with you.

Cool,finally at least I have an answer,although wrong at least I got one.....

Now why is it wrong.....When the last trump sounds(7th)Christ comes here,commonly referred to as the Day of the Lord....From that day forth,Christ will never leave this earth again,He shall rule from Jerusalem......Forever.....

Now had that taken place back then,the age of the flesh would have been over,but we still are...In flesh....

No,Paul was not talking about those in the first century,as a matter of fact,the verses in question don't apply to just the saints,it applies to ALL

Had he been speaking to them exclusivly, they would not have died a flesh death......

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Cool,finally at least I have an answer,although wrong at least I got one.....

Now why is it wrong.....When the last trump sounds(7th)Christ comes here,commonly referred to as the Day of the Lord....From that day forth,Christ will never leave this earth again,He shall rule from Jerusalem......Forever.....

Now had that taken place back then,the age of the flesh would have been over,but we still are...In flesh....

No,Paul was not talking about those in the first century,as a matter of fact,the verses in question don't apply to just the saints,it applies to ALL

Had he been speaking to them exclusivly, they would not have died a flesh death......

I believe the conclusion you've reached is flawed, but I'm an open minded guy, so if you don't mind, please share with us your reasoning and evidence as to why this is the case.

 

[n2thelight]

I believe the conclusion you've reached is flawed, but I'm an open minded guy, so if you don't mind, please share with us your reasoning and evidence as to why this is the case.

I don't know how much simplier I can make it.....I shall try.....

Revelation 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."


Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."


Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Again that could not be past else Christ would now be ruling from Jerusalem

 

[jasoncran]

with the way some of the preterists intepret scripture. this should only include the old word

for God so loved the world ... yet they dont take it that way. despite the audience that was there to hear that and also whom it was written to.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I don't know how much simplier I can make it.....I shall try.....

Revelation 5:10 "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."


Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."


Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Again that could not be past else Christ would now be ruling from Jerusalem

Thanks for replying. I looked at the passaged you gave and their context, and here are some things I noticed.
1. Rev. 5:10
- people from every tribe, language, country, and race bought for God with Jesus' blood were to one day become rulers and Priests to our God, and would rule as kings on the earth.
- no time frame is given as to when this was to occur and this doesn't appear to be linked to the trumpets sounding from the context.
- Jerusalem is not mentioned

2. Rev. 10:7
- For, when the seventh messenger blows his trumpet (which is about to happen), God’s mystery, which was revealed in the good news He gave through His slaves the Prophets, will then be accomplished.’
- What was this mystery of God this passage spoke of being accomplished?
- What does that accomplishment look like?
- What does this have to do with ruling from Jerusalem or the end of time?

3. Rev. 11:15
- What does this have to do with ruling from Jerusalem?
- Where does this imply that Jesus is coming here?

Another thing I noticed from scripture was that anytime that the Lord's Day or the Day of the Lord is mentioned, what we see is judgment and punishment. Nowhere that I can think of at this point is the day of the Lord spoken of as a time of peace.