Preterism & Biblical Prophecy

reba · Jun 24, 2011

preterism like every other eschatology spiritualizes what dont fit.

Lehigh3 · Jun 24, 2011

jasoncran said:
ok, well if i was jew at the time who heard that and had the tanakh in hand to turn i would refer to this incident that predates isreal by oh say several thousands yrs.

this verse in the tanakh taught to me by the local rabbi and once i converted peter here also read this to me an explained the correlation of the statment by yeshua that says as in the days of noah so shall it be when the son of man cometh.

genesis 6.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

now then peter here directly states in like manner God again will judge man and the whole earth but this time with fire. is that so hard to grasp that if God deluged the earth so that only 8 lived he will again. peter says what is happening now. we have the scoffers, thost that say he aint a comin and also those that deny the flood willfully( i can if you wish show what geologist admit on that idea of the earth at one time in all areas, though they say not all at once, the earth is under water.)

the flood wasnt local to the levant as if a mountian such as say nebo in the sinai pennisula(800mt approx 2400ft) is totally covered how much of the earth would also be and even higher mountains were covered in that region.

so if peter was telling us that why was the flood in your beliefs a spirutal thing?

No. In the O.T. that flood was literal. But Peter is not saying that the literal heavens & earth would be destroyed by fire. He is saying that God would judge them by fire. And "heaven & earth" was old covenant Israel. IOWs, Peter's eschatological view is a spiritual renewing into a "new heaven & earth- where righteousness dwells"
Let me ask you this, did God destroy the foundations of the earth or world with the great flood? Or just the evil therein? (which was proportionately great- but nonetheless)
Did the dove find land when the water receded - or did God literally destroy the world when Noah was safe on the ark?

And the "scoffers" were already giving Peter a hard time. Those Judaizers were taunting, "where is the promise of His coming!?" it had been decades since Christ left- & Peter says what they don't realize is that God is not slack as some count slackness. All things went the same since the fathers fell asleep (the patriarchs) & it's like a day thousand years to God- but salvation has come- repent & believe the gospel!

reba · Jun 24, 2011

Let me ask you this, did God destroy the foundations of the earth or world with the great flood? Or just the evil therein? (which was proportionately great- but nonetheless)
Did the dove find land when the water receded - or did God literally destroy the world when Noah was safe on the ark?

jasoncran · Jun 24, 2011

duh the earth surivived the land itsself being flooded literally meant death to all life save that which was on the ark. so God wont destroy the earth. do we have any ancient cities listed if any prior to the floood as evidence NOPE.

so again are you really saying that God wont do the same. the old must die so that the new must come to place.i dont buy this heaven for the saints only and the earth for the sinners and the grave or hell for them for all eternity.

doesnt it say creation cries out for redemption?yes from what? sin. has the adamic curse been removed? by your own admition now. i didnt say the earth was going to be done away with. only that by fire will he remove all that evil like unto the flood. when that happens the earth wont be the same.that is the point. you claim that has happened.funny show me that as sin still exists.

what was God's plan for adam ere the fall? why cant God when its all said and done resume that? we are made for him. and adam fell yet in the final act of revaltion God dwells on the earth with men. this doesnt mean the earth contains him,only that we will be on the earth and no direct barrier or sin in the way. flesh cant see God. ever wonder why the men in visions fell on their feet in fear? no man can see God and live. that held true for john if it wasnt for the fact the he saw jesus first. he never has seen the father.

jasoncran · Jun 24, 2011

so we dont have poeple denying the flood, his return or in your case he aint coming back.

you dont know where we go when we die and what happens when paul said we rise up and be with the lord when he returns(when were the dead raised in ad 70?)

if he came in that manner where are these dead saints who have a body to dwell in as we arent just an invisible which is point drew is making in another thread.

Drew · Jun 24, 2011

Even though I disagree with the OP at a number of points (and have made the relevant arguments earlier in this thread), I do agree with one central theme of the OP: the kingdom is indeed here now, and yet awaits a future consummation.

Sinthesis · Jun 24, 2011

Consider the following verses and what they might mean for the eschatology of the Jew and Gentile worlds.:waving

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:9 - Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 - But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

TRUTH over TRADITION · Jun 25, 2011

jasoncran said:
so we dont have poeple denying the flood, his return or in your case he aint coming back.

you dont know where we go when we die and what happens when paul said we rise up and be with the lord when he returns(when were the dead raised in ad 70?)

if he came in that manner where are these dead saints who have a body to dwell in as we arent just an invisible which is point drew is making in another thread.

Now you're cooking with fish grease for indeed they were raised when Jesus returned in power, glory, and judgment!!!! After they were raised, get this; they along with the saints who had not died were um........raptured and met the Lord in the air. That's not all, the resurrected ones that died a martyr's death like being beheaded actually got to reign with Jesus for like 1000 years or something.

Elijah674 · Jun 25, 2011

TRUTH over TRADITION said:
Now you're cooking with fish grease for indeed they were raised when Jesus returned in power, glory, and judgment!!!! After they were raised, get this; they along with the saints who had not died were um........raptured and met the Lord in the air. That's not all, the resurrected ones that died a martyr's death like being beheaded actually got to reign with Jesus for like 1000 years or something.

or something?? :screwloose

jasoncran · Jun 25, 2011

TRUTH over TRADITION said:
Now you're cooking with fish grease for indeed they were raised when Jesus returned in power, glory, and judgment!!!! After they were raised, get this; they along with the saints who had not died were um........raptured and met the Lord in the air. That's not all, the resurrected ones that died a martyr's death like being beheaded actually got to reign with Jesus for like 1000 years or something.

ok. so you beleive we at present are post rapture that as i stated earlier the old "earth" like the flood was judged, and we are on the other side of the fiery judgment?

i dont think that judgment on all man has happened. why do some christians think that God is no so lovely dubbey and unwilling to judgment men where was in the ot he was mad all the time. if you really read the ot and what the books and verses on the lord's second coming he still the same. he warned isreal a ton of time ere they went into captivity and the gentiles and jew after the cross wont and cant say i didnt know you were coming to judge men.

TRUTH over TRADITION · Jun 26, 2011

jasoncran said:
ok. so you beleive we at present are post rapture that as i stated earlier the old "earth" like the flood was judged, and we are on the other side of the fiery judgment?

i dont think that judgment on all man has happened. why do some christians think that God is no so lovely dubbey and unwilling to judgment men where was in the ot he was mad all the time. if you really read the ot and what the books and verses on the lord's second coming he still the same. he warned isreal a ton of time ere they went into captivity and the gentiles and jew after the cross wont and cant say i didnt know you were coming to judge men.

I believe there is a time of judgment yet ahead of humanity. What the nature of that judgment is I can but speculate. I do believe what is refered to as the "great white throne judgment" was a past event and it was a judgment that was for the "household of faith" and in it Jesus separated the sheep from the goats takin ghte sheep and leaving the goats to endure the wrath of God that came upon Jerusalem in the 1st century.

jasoncran · Jun 26, 2011

TRUTH over TRADITION said:
I believe there is a time of judgment yet ahead of humanity. What the nature of that judgment is I can but speculate. I do believe what is refered to as the "great white throne judgment" was a past event and it was a judgment that was for the "household of faith" and in it Jesus separated the sheep from the goats takin ghte sheep and leaving the goats to endure the wrath of God that came upon Jerusalem in the 1st century.

you do realise that only 1.5 million died of the jews. that isnt a large judgment. you could say the holocaust was a far more reaching judgment by that thinking. if God wanted to eliminate all the jews that rejected him. there wouldnt be any jews of today. i hope you preterists see that. the JEWISH LEADERSHIP AND THE TEMPLE WERE WHAT HE WAS after so that the jews would know that God meant business when he said the His son christ was the way to heaven and the way to worship.

Zinc · Jun 26, 2011

Was preterism taught in early Christianity?

Preterists like to accuse dispensationalists of having quite a modern doctrine. Dispensationalists can throw back that accusation against the preterists.

Let's not worry about dispensationalism here. I'm just interested in preterism in this thread.

Does anyone have evidence that preterism was taught in early Christianity?

I don't mean something like the 70 weeks being fulfilled in the past. Or church fathers saying certain Bible verses were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem.

I mean the kind of preterism we have today: whether that is "partial" or whether "radical", "full", preterism. So a partial preterist, as I use the term here, will stick at least Matthew 24:1-35 in the first century. A full preterist would claim e.g. that the 2nd Coming was fulfilled in the first century. That's the kind of thing I'm interested in here.

And the topic of this thread is about extra-Biblical early sources. Do any early sources exist, e.g. from church fathers, which would clearly indicate that such ideas existed in early Christianity?

Lehigh3 · Jun 26, 2011