[_ Old Earth _] PROOF of a world wide flood CHALLENGE!

[Crying Rock]

Crying Rock wrote:

What is the diagenesis of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata sandstone?

As I pointed out before, wind-produced deposits are clearly produced on land, not in water.

Abstract. The Mesozoic fluvio-lacustrine sedimentary rocks in the Ordos Basin

include the Fuxian Fm. of Lower Jurassic, the Yan’an, Zhiluo and Anding Fm. of Mid-Jurassic,

and the Zhidan group or Liupanshan Group of Lower Cretaceous from the bottom to the top.

In contrast, the lower Cretaceous sediments, namely Zhidan Group or Liupanshan Group in

Tianhuan area and Yijinhuoluo Fm. and Dongsheng Fm. in Dongsheng area, are dominantly

fluvial

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publicatio ... 96_web.pdf

The widespread Mesozoic Zhidan group of strata in the Ordos Basin… inland

fluviolacustrine deposits.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-prev ... ze=largest


Fluviolacustrine- Of or pertaining to sedimentation partly in lake water and partly in streams, or

to deposits laid down under alternating or overlapping lacustrine and fluviatile conditions.

Geol 285 - Dr. Helen Lang, West Virginia University, Spring 2009

Diagenesis of Sandstones

All changes, physical, chemical, and biological, that occur in a sediment after

deposition and before metamorphism (<150-200oC)

These changes happen at sediment-water interface and after burial.

Two important processes

• Compaction - decrease in volume, largely by squeezing out of water

• Cementation - introduction of chemical precipitates between grains

• Together these result in lithification = the change from a loose sediment into a

cohesive rock

http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol285/Pe ... utline.pdf

 

[Barbarian]

You're saying that because there are some fluvial deposits, the documented aeolian deposits from the same time and area can't exist?

You're going to have to explain that one a bit further.

 

[Crying Rock]

You're saying that because there are some fluvial deposits, the documented aeolian deposits from the same time and area can't exist?

You're going to have to explain that one a bit further.

The eolian deposits were the source material for the diagenesis of the local sandstone.

 

[Barbarian]

In the middle of the "flood deposits?" How do you manage to produce a "sand sea" with huge areas of windblown sand, in the middle of a worldwide flood?

You're going to have to expand that a bit.

 

[Crying Rock]

In the middle of the "flood deposits?" How do you manage to produce a "sand sea" with huge areas of windblown sand, in the middle of a worldwide flood?

The same way sand turns into sandstone in absence of a worldwide flood: water, burial, compaction and cementation (sandstone diagenesis).

If there were a worldwide flood then the Cretaceous strata may be evidence for that. That's why I was asking if there are any known Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the absence of water. Cretaceous deposits are found worldwide but were all created in the presence of water? I'm basically trying to falsify this hypothesis. Can you think of any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the absence of water?

The Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous sandstone doesn't seem to meet this criteria.

 

[lordkalvan]

....If there were a worldwide flood then the Cretaceous strata may be evidence for that. That's why I was asking if there are any known Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the absence of water. Cretaceous deposits are found worldwide but were all created in the presence of water? I'm basically trying to falsify this hypothesis. Can you think of any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the absence of water?...

The abstract of this paper (http://www.springerlink.com/content/g618v5m8vt0g6k23/) references Cretaceous period igneous rocks in the Yeongdong Basin in SW Korea, as well as in the neighboring Okcheon belt; the paper is available as a PDF. I don't know whether this is the sort of thing you are looking for or not.

 

[Crying Rock]

....If there were a worldwide flood then the Cretaceous strata may be evidence for that. That's why I was asking if there are any known Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the absence of water. Cretaceous deposits are found worldwide but were all created in the presence of water? I'm basically trying to falsify this hypothesis. Can you think of any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the absence of water?...

The abstract of this paper (http://www.springerlink.com/content/g618v5m8vt0g6k23/) references Cretaceous period igneous rocks in the Yeongdong Basin in SW Korea, as well as in the neighboring Okcheon belt; the paper is available as a PDF. I don't know whether this is the sort of thing you are looking for or not.

Thanks LK.

I'll try to make some time to read the .pdf in full this week.

Some igneous rocks are formed underwater, but I have no idea with this case.

Again, thanks.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
In the middle of the "flood deposits?" How do you manage to produce a "sand sea" with huge areas of windblown sand, in the middle of a worldwide flood?

The same way sand turns into sandstone in absence of a worldwide flood: water, burial, compaction and cementation (sandstone diagenesis).

It seems unlikely to me that huge desert, complete with sand dunes, would have time to form in the middle of the flood.

 

[Crying Rock]

Barbarian asks:
In the middle of the "flood deposits?" How do you manage to produce a "sand sea" with huge areas of windblown sand, in the middle of a worldwide flood?

The same way sand turns into sandstone in absence of a worldwide flood: water, burial, compaction and cementation (sandstone diagenesis).

It seems unlikely to me that huge desert, complete with sand dunes, would have time to form in the middle of the flood.

The sand dunes were the parent material for the sandstone, therefore existing prior to diagenesis:

Geol 285 - Dr. Helen Lang, West Virginia University, Spring 2009

Diagenesis of Sandstones

All changes, physical, chemical, and biological, that occur in a sediment after

deposition and before metamorphism (<150-200oC)

These changes happen at sediment-water interface and after burial.

Two important processes

• Compaction - decrease in volume, largely by squeezing out of water

• Cementation - introduction of chemical precipitates between grains

• Together these result in lithification = the change from a loose sediment into a

cohesive rock

http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol285/Pe ... utline.pdf

 

[nadab]

Hello lordkalvan,

Otzi, a nickname given to the Iceman and who was found near the German valley of Otztal on Mount Similaun, did not die as a result of the global deluge. He lay over 10,500 feet [3,200 m] above sea level in a narrow, snow-filled ravine in a hollow that protected him from the movements of the nearby glacier. If his body had been frozen into the glacial ice mass, it would have been completely broken up and swept away. Very likely, his sheltered position preserved him intact. When he was found, Similaun Man (another of his names) was still wearing some of his articles of clothing and had on leather footwear stuffed with straw for protection from the cold. Near his head lay a “mat†of woven straw. It was as though, overcome by tiredness and the cold one evening, the Iceman fell tranquilly asleep only to “see†the light of day thousands of years later.

On the other hand, the Hertz mammoth was found with "green" vegetation in it's mouth and stomach, thus indicating that it was frozen while grazing in a warm climate. It would be as if, while having a meal outside in warm weather, you were quickly frozen. For this to happen, there would have to a cataclysmic weather change, the weather pattern changing from comfortably warm to sub-zero temperatures in a rapid span of time. If you were under a thick warm blanket in bed of a very cold house, without heat, but then someone quickly takes it off you, what would happen ? If all you had on was some pajamas, then suddenly you would begin to experience the pangs of cold.

Likewise, when the "heavenly ocean" "(Hebrew, ham·mab·bul´; Latin, di·lu´vi·i, Gen 6:17) of water that was above the earth, that held in the warmth from the sun fell to the earth, a major temperature change took place, especially at or near the poles. This too caused great upheavals with the land masses. It needs to be remembered that the vast majority of water was above the earth, not on the earth, before the Noachian Flood that occurred in 2370 B.C.E. and effectively lasted for one year.(Gen 7:11, 8:14)

Today there is about 1.4 billion cubit kilometers (326 million cubit miles) of water on the earth. It covers more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface. The average depth of the oceans is 4 kilometers (2.5 miles); average elevation of the land is only 0.8 kilometers (0.5 miles) above sea level. If the earth’s surface was smoothed out, it would all be covered with water to a depth of 2,400 meters (8,000 ft).

This was no local flash flood or cloudburst. In fact, the Greek word used in the Bible by Jesus to refer to the Flood, or Deluge, is ka·ta·kly·smos´, a cataclysm. (Luke 17:27) Local floods come and go in a matter of days; this one lasted over a year, the greater portion of which was required for the water to subside. How unreasonable to believe that Noah spent perhaps 50 or 60 years building a huge vessel of approximately 40,000 cubit meters (1,400,000 cubit feet) for the survival of his family and a few animals through a mere local flood !

If only a comparatively small area was affected, why the need of bringing into the ark specimens of “every living creature of every sort of flesh†in order to “preserve offspring alive on the surface of the entire earth� (Gen 6:19; 7:3) That is why the Bible presents this as a global deluge, the like of which had never occurred before nor has since. “The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to 15 cubits [c. 6.5 meters; 22 feet] the waters overwhelmed them and the mountains became covered.†(Gen 7:19, 20)

With the sudden opening of the ‘springs of the watery deep’ and “the floodgates of the heavens,†untold billions of tons of water deluged the earth. (Gen 7:11) This may have caused tremendous changes in earth’s surface. The earth’s crust is relatively thin (estimated at between 30 kilometers [20 miles] and 160 kilometers [100 miles] thick), stretched over a rather plastic mass thousands of kilometers in diameter. Hence, under the added weight of the water, there was likely a great shifting in the crust. In time new mountains evidently were thrust upward, old mountains rose to new heights, shallow sea basins were deepened, and new shorelines were established, with the result that now about 70 percent of the surface is covered with water. This shifting in the earth’s crust may account for many geologic phenomena, such as the raising of old coastlines to new heights. It has been estimated by some that water pressures alone were equal to “2 tons per square inch,†sufficient to fossilize fauna and flora quickly.

And why did God, whose name is Jehovah (Ps 83:18), bring about a global deluge ? Genesis 6:13 says: "Then God said to Noah, "I have decided to put an end to all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence because of them (the Nephilim - wicked sons born to materialized angels as a result of having sexual relations "with the daughters of men" before the Flood, Gen 6:4); therefore I am going to destroy them along with the earth."(Holman Christian Standard Bible) At Genesis 7:4, God says that "I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made", and therefore, "everything with the breath of the spirit of life in its nostrilsâ€â€everything on dry land died...Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark."(Gen 7:22,23, Holman Christian Standard Bible)

At Isaiah 40:22, the Hebrew word chugh is translated “circle,†which may also be rendered “sphere.†(A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures, by B. Davidson) "The circle†of the earth’s horizon is clearly seen from outer space and sometimes during high-altitude airplane travel. The Hebrew word for “compass†(mechu·ghah´) is related to chugh (circle). Hence, the Bible was not influenced by the erroneous , flat-earth view prevalent when it was written.

And Job 26:7 says that God is “hanging the earth upon nothing.†This has been established as true, for astronomers now know that the earth has no visible means of support and is spherical or round like a "circle". How could the Bible present this over 1000 years even before Pythagorus asserted that the earth was round in about 500 B.C.E. though most believed it was flat ? One Bible scholar said: “How Job knew the truth, demonstrated by astronomy, that the earth hangs self-poised in empty space, is a question not easily solved by those who deny the inspiration of Holy Scripture.â€Â

The Bible uses literary language, poetic expressions, such as the "pillars of heaven" shaking or "wrapping up the waters in his clouds".(Job 26:8,11) Many people use poetic expressions, such as the "sun rises in the east and sets in the west". This is not "accurate astrophysics", but rather is an expression of what we "see", accepting and using it ourselves. We use figurative language to sometimes express a thought that has a deeper meaning. So likewise the Bible, with it having figurative language throughout it's pages, using metaphors, allegories, hyperboles, and illustrations (parables). It also is written in such a way as to not allow most to understand it's deep meaning. Jesus said in prayer to his Father: "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children."(Matt 11:25, English Standard Version)

God established a sacred calendar following the Israelites exodus from Egypt in 1513 B.C.E. This was not based upon either Egyptian or Babylonian calendars. The Bible is unique, for it alone is from the "true God", Jehovah.(Jer 10:10) All other religious texts are not "inspired of God"(2 Tim 3:16), such as the Koran. It is the only book that teaches people (1) Where we came from, (2) Why we are here, and (3) where we are going. It also provides insight as to why wickedness is so prevalent on the earth and how this will be removed (Matt 6:9,10; Rev 11:18), opening the way for "meek" ones to enjoy life without end on the earth, as was originally intended by God.(Gen 2:15; Matt 5:5)

 

[Barbarian]

The sand dunes were the parent material for the sandstone, therefore existing prior to diagenesis:

There's a bit of a problem with that. Cretaceous deserts were formed on the top of "flood sediments." And there are more "flood sediments" above them. So somehow, a flood enthusiast has to explain how great deserts had time to form in the middle of a worldwide flood.

How do you think it happened?

 

[lordkalvan]

Hi, nadab.

Otzi, a nickname given to the Iceman and who was found near the German valley of Otztal on Mount Similaun, did not die as a result of the global deluge. He lay over 10,500 feet [3,200 m] above sea level in a narrow, snow-filled ravine in a hollow that protected him from the movements of the nearby glacier. If his body had been frozen into the glacial ice mass, it would have been completely broken up and swept away. Very likely, his sheltered position preserved him intact. When he was found, Similaun Man (another of his names) was still wearing some of his articles of clothing and had on leather footwear stuffed with straw for protection from the cold. Near his head lay a “mat†of woven straw. It was as though, overcome by tiredness and the cold one evening, the Iceman fell tranquilly asleep only to “see†the light of day thousands of years later.

So what are the indicators that lead you to conclude Otzi did not die as a result of the biblical flood? From the above, it seems to me that these are
• The height at which his body was found.
• The fact that his body was not broken up and dispersed.
• He was wearing material to protect him from the cold.
• He seems to have died relatively peacefully.
Is this a fair summary? If not, how am I misunderstanding your reasoning?

On the other hand, the Hertz mammoth was found with "green" vegetation in it's mouth and stomach, thus indicating that it was frozen while grazing in a warm climate. It would be as if, while having a meal outside in warm weather, you were quickly frozen. For this to happen, there would have to a cataclysmic weather change, the weather pattern changing from comfortably warm to sub-zero temperatures in a rapid span of time. If you were under a thick warm blanket in bed of a very cold house, without heat, but then someone quickly takes it off you, what would happen ? If all you had on was some pajamas, then suddenly you would begin to experience the pangs of cold.

Sue Bishop has an article at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mammoths.html in which she describes her researches into the tales of mammoth remains. She states that the mammoths in question – including the one you are referring to – were, in fact, mummified by dessication as moisture in the carcase is crystallized in situ, rather than quick-frozen as you imply. More significantly, Bishop further quotes E.W. Pfizenmayer, one of the scientists who recovered the so-called Merz mammoth:

Before I arrived at the site, Herz had partially dug away the hill of earth round the body, and so both the forefeet and the hind feet were exposed. These lay under the body so that it rested on them. When one looked at the body one had the impression that it must have suddenly fallen into an unexpected fissure in the ice, which it probably came across in its wanderings, and which may have been covered with a layer of plant-bearing mould. After its fall the unlucky animal must have tried to get out of its hopeless position, for the right forefoot was doubled up and the left stretched forward as if it had struggled to rise. But its strength had apparently not been up to it, for when we dug it out still farther we found that in its fall it had not only broken several bones, but had been almost completely buried by the falls of earth which tumbled in on it, so that it had suffocated.

Its death must have occurred very quickly after its fall, for we found half-chewed food still in its mouth, between the back teeth and on its tongue, which was in good preservation. The food consisted of leaves and grasses, some of the later carrying seeds. We could tell from these that the mammoth must have come to its miserable end in the autumn.

This description describes an entirely normal (if I can use such a term) death, with the clear suggestion that the mammoth fell into an already-existing ice-fissure where it subsequently died quite rapidly, not that it was overwhelmed by a sudden dramatic temperature-fall so that it was deep-frozen while chewing its last meal.

It is also the case that the remains of this mammoth have been radiocarbon dated to more than 39,000 years ago.

Likewise, when the "heavenly ocean" "(Hebrew, ham·mab·bul´; Latin, di·lu´vi·i, Gen 6:17) of water that was above the earth, that held in the warmth from the sun fell to the earth, a major temperature change took place, especially at or near the poles. This too caused great upheavals with the land masses. It needs to be remembered that the vast majority of water was above the earth, not on the earth, before the Noachian Flood that occurred in 2370 B.C.E. and effectively lasted for one year.(Gen 7:11, 8:14)

Today there is about 1.4 billion cubit kilometers (326 million cubit miles) of water on the earth. It covers more than 70 percent of the globe’s surface. The average depth of the oceans is 4 kilometers (2.5 miles); average elevation of the land is only 0.8 kilometers (0.5 miles) above sea level. If the earth’s surface was smoothed out, it would all be covered with water to a depth of 2,400 meters (8,000 ft).

Consider the facts that I gave you previously about the current relationship between the amount of water in the atmosphere and that in oceans, seas, lakes, rivers, ice-caps and glaciers. This formula gives you a means of calculating the amount of water vapour in the air at any moment:

Relative humidity = actual vapour density (gms/m^3)/saturation vapour density (gms/m^3)

At saturation vapour density the air is unable to hold all the moisture within it, at which point it begins to condense. At -10C the SVD is 2.36 gms/m^3; at +15C it is 12.83 gms/m^3 and at +40C it is 55.3 gms/m^3 (Source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HB ... ap.html#c1).

Consider that, as I indicated before, there are around 3,100 cubic miles of water in the atmosphere. It seems to be the case that the scenario you are putting forward is that the ‘vast majority of water’ being above and not on the Earth. Water vapour is almost wholly absent from the atmosphere above 8 kilometres and averages about 0.8% of the volume of the atmosphere. Now that 3,100 cubic miles of water in the atmosphere represents around 0.001% of the total volume of Earth’s water. If the ‘vast majority’ of this water was in the atmosphere before the flood, I assume you mean considerably more than 50%; for the sake of this example, I am going to assume that the ‘vast majority’ is around 90%. From your own figures, 90% of the Earth’s water would amount to over 290 million cubic miles of water, or in excess of 90,000 times more water than is currently held in the Earth’s atmosphere. Given the data provided for saturation vapour density, I trust you can see how absurd this idea is.

The remainder of your post concerning the flood legend seems to consist of imaginative speculation with no evidential basis. Please see my previous critique of the Ark myth.

At Isaiah 40:22, the Hebrew word chugh is translated “circle,†which may also be rendered “sphere.†(A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures, by B. Davidson) "The circle†of the earth’s horizon is clearly seen from outer space and sometimes during high-altitude airplane travel. The Hebrew word for “compass†(mechu·ghah´) is related to chugh (circle). Hence, the Bible was not influenced by the erroneous , flat-earth view prevalent when it was written.

Climb a high peak and look around you: the land beneath you seems to be laid out in a circle. If you insist on a literal meaning for the word circle, this seems eminently more plausible an explanation for the use of the word than the idea that the writers of the Bible, whose cosmological knowledge and understanding elsewhere seems lacking, understood that the Earth was a planet orbiting the Sun. I understand that there was no specific word in Hebrew for a sphere, so that the word can be translated as either circle or sphere – depending, I presume, on context; this is not evidence that in this particular case it can in fact be understood to mean sphere.

And Job 26:7 says that God is “hanging the earth upon nothing.†This has been established as true, for astronomers now know that the earth has no visible means of support and is spherical or round like a "circle". How could the Bible present this over 1000 years even before Pythagorus asserted that the earth was round in about 500 B.C.E. though most believed it was flat ? One Bible scholar said: “How Job knew the truth, demonstrated by astronomy, that the earth hangs self-poised in empty space, is a question not easily solved by those who deny the inspiration of Holy Scripture.â€Â

Just to pick a nit or two, scholars generally date the Pentateuch to around 400-500 BC, although drawing on elements that might be as much as 500 years older. Greek philosophers prior to Pythagoras (c.570 BC) made ambiguous references to a spherical Earth. Therefore it is theoretically possible – though I think highly unlikely – that such speculation may have reached the Middle East. However, I rest my critique of your arguments on what I said earlier.

The Bible uses literary language, poetic expressions, such as the "pillars of heaven" shaking or "wrapping up the waters in his clouds".(Job 26:8,11) Many people use poetic expressions, such as the "sun rises in the east and sets in the west". This is not "accurate astrophysics", but rather is an expression of what we "see", accepting and using it ourselves. We use figurative language to sometimes express a thought that has a deeper meaning. So likewise the Bible, with it having figurative language throughout it's pages, using metaphors, allegories, hyperboles, and illustrations (parables).

My question was, why you suppose that phrases such as ‘hanging…upon nothing’ should be regarded as a literal description of the Earth orbiting the Sun because it appears to accord with our modern understanding, but phrases like ‘pillars of heaven’ should be regarded as poetic or metaphorical because it quite clearly does not reflect the reality of the situation in any way? This seems to be a classic example of confirmation bias.

God established a sacred calendar following the Israelites exodus from Egypt in 1513 B.C.E. This was not based upon either Egyptian or Babylonian calendars….

All the references I can find suggest that the Jewish calendar traces its origins to the Babylonian calendar which, given the close relationship between the Jews and Babylon, is scarcely surprising.

 

[Crying Rock]

The sand dunes were the parent material for the sandstone, therefore existing prior to diagenesis:

There's a bit of a problem with that. Cretaceous deserts were formed on the top of "flood sediments." And there are more "flood sediments" above them. So somehow, a flood enthusiast has to explain how great deserts had time to form in the middle of a worldwide flood.

What is your definition of "flood sediments"?

I'm just trying to figure out if there are any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the

absence of water and if Cretaceous deposits exist worldwide.

 

[Barbarian]

What is your definition of "flood sediments"?

The Creationist argument is that the Grand Canyon is made of flood sediments. Hence, we have a large amount of desert, forest, etc. within that sediment to explain. Moreover, I don't see any difference between sediments before the Cretaceous and after, except for the KT boundary, which seems to have been caused by the Chixlub event, perhaps in conjunction with the eruption of the Deccan Traps.

I'm just trying to figure out if there are any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the
absence of water and if Cretaceous deposits exist worldwide.

Certainly fossilized sand dunes would qualify. And yes, you can find Cretaceous sediment worldwide. It was a rather long period, after all.

 

[Crying Rock]

Crying Rock wrote:

I'm just trying to figure out if there are any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the
absence of water and if Cretaceous deposits exist worldwide.

The Barbarian wrote:

Certainly fossilized sand dunes would qualify. And yes, you can find Cretaceous sediment worldwide. It was a rather long period, after all.

Crying Rock wrote:

What is the diagenesis of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata sandstone?

The Barbarian wrote:

As I pointed out before, wind-produced deposits are clearly produced on land, not in water.

Crying Rock quoted:

Abstract.

The Mesozoic fluvio-lacustrine sedimentary rocks in the Ordos Basin include the Fuxian

Fm. of Lower Jurassic, the Yan’an, Zhiluo and Anding Fm. of Mid-Jurassic, and the Zhidan

group or Liupanshan Group of Lower Cretaceous from the bottom to the top.

Crying Rock quoted:

In contrast, the lower Cretaceous sediments, namely Zhidan Group or Liupanshan Group in

Tianhuan area and Yijinhuoluo Fm. and Dongsheng Fm. in Dongsheng area, are dominantly

fluvial.

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publicatio ... 96_web.pdf

Crying Rock quoted:

The widespread Mesozoic Zhidan group of strata in the Ordos Basin… inland

fluviolacustrine deposits.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-prev ... ze=largest

Crying Rock quoted:

Fluviolacustrine- Of or pertaining to sedimentation partly in lake water and partly in streams,

or to deposits laid down under alternating or overlapping lacustrine and fluviatile conditions.

Crying Rock quoted:


Geol 285 - Dr. Helen Lang, West Virginia University, Spring 2009

Diagenesis of Sandstones

All changes, physical, chemical, and biological, that occur in a sediment after

deposition and before metamorphism (<150-200oC)

These changes happen at sediment-water interface and after burial.

Two important processes

• Compaction - decrease in volume, largely by squeezing out of water

• Cementation - introduction of chemical precipitates between grains

• Together these result in lithification = the change from a loose sediment into a

cohesive rock.

http://www.geo.wvu.edu/~lang/Geol285/Pe ... utline.pdf[/quote]

So again I ask:

Crying Rock wrote:

...I'm just trying to figure out if there are any Cretaceous deposits that were formed in the

absence of water...

The Barbarian wrote:

...And yes, you can find Cretaceous sediment worldwide.

It was a rather long period, after all...

 

[Barbarian]

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever find out how a worldwide flood had time to put a desert in the middle of flood deposits.

 

[Crying Rock]

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever find out how a worldwide flood had time to put a desert in the middle of flood deposits.

However, my question was: "Are there any Cretaceous deposits that are known to have formed in the absence of water."

Anyway, we've beaten this topic to death, as far you and me go.

 

[Barbarian]

It now appears that your question was "is there any deposit formed in the absence of water, that did not have at least some water intrude sometime later?"

Since water is pretty much ubiquitous, that seems like the answer is "no."

 

[nadab]

Hello lordkalvan,

No amount of reasonable "evidence" will satisfy you nor others and this "discussion" could go on endlessly. We have the capacity to reason on available evdence, as well as the ability to "put the pieces together" regarding the Bible's account of a global deluge. When the Biblical account of the Noachian Flood is cast aside as unauthentic, this puts one on "dangerous ground". How is this so ? As Proverbs 11:7 says that anyone disregarding God's word, casting it aside as valueless, that upon death,"his hope perishes; and even expectation based on powerfulness has perished." It is as if being adrift in the ocean, with no one to save them.

On the other hand, there is the hope of unending life, with "abundance of peace", found only in the Bible.(Ps 37:11,29) The universe is evidence of a Creator, a Maker, whose has given himself the name of Jehovah, meaning "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be."(Ex 3:14,15) He has put before all mankind "life and death.....the blessing and the malediction."(Deut 30:19) God's Son, Jesus Christ, confirmed the reality of the Noachian Flood, by paralleling it to his "presence", by saying, "as the days of Noah - so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man; for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark,(and they took no note) till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man.."(Matt 24:37-39, Young's Bible)

Many have doubted the existence of Jesus as an actual person. Josephus, Tacitus, and and Pliny the Younger spoke of Jesus. Flavius Josephus (37-101 C.E), a first-century Jewish historian who was a Pharisee, referred to Jesus Christ in the book Jewish Antiquities. Although some doubt the authenticity of the first reference where Josephus mentioned Jesus as the Messiah, Professor Louis H. Feldman of Yeshiva University says that few have doubted the genuineness of the second reference. There Josephus said: “[Ananus the high priest] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ.†(Jewish Antiquities, XX, 200) A Pharisee, a member of the sect many of whose adherents were avowed enemies of Jesus, acknowledged the existence of “James, the brother of Jesus.â€Â

Tacitus, born about 55 C.E. and considered one of the world’s greatest historians, mentioned the Christians in his Annals. In the account about Nero’s blaming the great fire of Rome in 64 C.E. on them, he wrote: “Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.†The details of this account match the information regarding the Jesus of the Bible.

Having been established as a historical person, his "sayings" from God (John 3:34) are far superior to anyone elses, providing hope of "everlasting life",(John 3:15) and attested to the authenticity of the global flood. Can any "well-educated" individuals give a basis for hope of living on the earth with an "abundance of peace"(Ps 37:11), whereby even the animals are in total harmony with mankind ?(Isa 11:6-9) As of now, the world is in a state of chaos, with no real solutions, with the most literate and educated men on the planet trying to resolve the serious problems perplexing it. On the other hand, Jesus spoke of a heavenly government that will remove all such chaotic activity, as found in the "Lord's prayer" at Matthew 6:9,10, making a restoration of it's original arrangement, as seen at Genesis 2.

 

[lordkalvan]

Hello, nadab.

Hello lordkalvan,

No amount of reasonable "evidence" will satisfy you nor others and this "discussion" could go on endlessly. We have the capacity to reason on available evdence, as well as the ability to "put the pieces together" regarding the Bible's account of a global deluge.....

I have yet to see reasonable evidence presented in support of the biblical flood of Noah; I have no bias towards belief or otherwise in the flood except as the evidence supports. Indeed, we can reason based on our understanding of available evidence; that reasoned understanding suggests that the biblical account of the flood is not factual.