[_ Old Earth _] PROOF of a world wide flood CHALLENGE!

[Crying Rock]

Let me clarify: are there any known Cretaceous deposits which were formed on land? Again, I truly don't know the answer. In my neck of the woods all the Cretaceous deposits were formed in marine environments.

So, as far as you know, Cretaceous deposits can be found all over the world (except where erosion removed them)?

So then, you'd know that the environment in the deposits is not the same thing as the deposit

But the question was: "are there any known Cretaceous deposits which were formed on land?"

 

[Barbarian]

But the question was: "are there any known Cretaceous deposits which were formed on land?"

If you think forests, swamps, grasslands, and deserts are on land, yes. All of those are in evidence, as you see.

The K-T boundary itself is found on land; I doubt if it would form properly under water.

 

[Crying Rock]

But the question was: "are there any known Cretaceous deposits which were formed on land?"

The Barbarian wrote:

[quote:2dtu0s3o]The K-T boundary itself is found on land; I doubt if it would form properly under water.

[/quote:2dtu0s3o]

Clams on top of mountains come to mind...


Where were the deposits that contain the K-T boundary formed?

What I’m investigating is whether any of the deposits from this era were formed on land or in water environments… or both. Are there any Cretaceous deposits that were formed on land? If so, what type deposits are these?


The Barbarian wrote:

If you think forests, swamps, grasslands, and deserts are on land, yes. All of those are in evidence, as you see.

So if I look at a Pleistocene gravel terrace and it contains marine fossils, anthropogenic material and fluvial material, does that make the deposit a marine deposit? Or is it all mixed up by fluvial processes?

 

[Barbarian]

Clams on top of mountains come to mind...

Actually, they aren't "on top of mountains"; they make up the mountains. The Himalyas, for example, are composed of the innumerable fossils of sea organisms. When India moved into Asia (which is still happening at pretty much the same rate it always has ) the shallow seafloor was thrown up into mountains.

Where were the deposits that contain the K-T boundary formed?

Pretty much all over the world.

What I’m investigating is whether any of the deposits from this era were formed on land or in water environments… or both.

There probably are some Cretaceous deposits which formed under seas, but I can't name any just now.

Are there any Cretaceous deposits that were formed on land? If so, what type deposits are these?

Barbarian observes:
If you think forests, swamps, grasslands, and deserts are on land, yes. All of those are in evidence, as you see.

So if I look at a Pleistocene gravel terrace and it contains marine fossils, anthropogenic material and fluvial material, does that make the deposit a marine deposit? Or is it all mixed up by fluvial processes?

Even in fossil strata of deserts, we can find the remains of organisms caught in flash floods. Doesn't mean that it wasn't a desert.

It has been found that there existed quite a large quantity of dune rocks in the red sandstone of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata. Their sedimentary structure, grain size and micro-shape of sand grains show an obvious aeolian features. Both the temporal and spatial distribution and sedimentary characteristics of these dune rocks suggest that probably a large sand sea once existed in the Ordos region. It belonged to a subtropical inland trade-wind desert with persistent hot climate and was also an important part of the Cretaceous red desert in China.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c2h1px1n58506406/

 

[Crying Rock]

Even in fossil strata of deserts, we can find the remains of organisms caught in flash floods. Doesn't mean that it wasn't a desert.

It has been found that there existed quite a large quantity of dune rocks in the red sandstone of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata. Their sedimentary structure, grain size and micro-shape of sand grains show an obvious aeolian features. Both the temporal and spatial distribution and sedimentary characteristics of these dune rocks suggest that probably a large sand sea once existed in the Ordos region. It belonged to a subtropical inland trade-wind desert with persistent hot climate and was also an important part of the Cretaceous red desert in China.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c2h1px1n58506406/

What is the diagenesis of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata sandstone?
Does this paper say?

There probably are some Cretaceous deposits which formed under seas, but I can't name any just now.

Just FYI, when I say formed, I mean diagenesis. I don't mean what type environment existed prior to diagenesis. Hopefully that will clarify my question:

Let me clarify: are there any known Cretaceous deposits which were formed on land? Again, I truly don't know the answer. In my neck of the woods all the Cretaceous deposits were formed in marine environments

So, as far as you know, Cretaceous deposits can be found all over the world (except where erosion removed them)?

 

[nadab]

There are many who either question the event of the Noachian Flood some 4000 years ago or rejects it. In the book Myths of Creation, Philip Freund estimates that over 500 Flood legends are told by more than 250 tribes and peoples. As might be expected, with the passing of many centuries, these legends have been greatly embellished with imaginary events and characters. In all of them, however, some basic similarities can be found. If there were no earthwide flood, then where did all these flood legends come from ?

Where, indeed? People who live by or near large sources of water, whether rivers, lakes, seas or oceans, are subject to periodic floods of more or less severity. Natural disasters were seen as the possible result of divine displeasure: for example the anger of Poseidon manifested as an earthquake. Some people survive floods, some don't. Some survivors survive by taking refuge on a boat (with or without livestock), some don't. When a flood subsides, survivors in a boat are more likely to ground on higher than lower ground. Survivors recount the tales. There is nothing surprising in some common threads amongst flood stories. There are many common threads in tales of volcanic eruptions. Does this mean that all such tales have a common origin in a single catastrophic event?

....Since the Flood legends are generally found among people who did not come in touch with the Bible until recent centuries, it would be a mistake to contend that the Scriptural account influenced them. For those who are look at this with an open mind, many have concluded that the flood of Noah's day was not just a fictitious event, but was a reality.

What reason do you think it a mistake to suppose that some of these accounts may have suffered cross-cultural contamination? The biblical flood is sufficiently similar to the much older flood epic of Gilgamesh, that it is equally reasonable to conclude that the biblical version was lifted wholesale and adapted for its new audience as necessary. A common origin for a legend is not evidence that the legend is anything other than legendary.

Hell lordkalvan,
Yes, millions of "people live by or near large sources of water, whether rivers, lakes, or oceans", and, on occasion, are "subject to periodic floods 0f more or less severity." However, the flood of Noah's day encompassed the entire earth, with even the "tall mountains that are under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits (about 21.8 feet) the waters overwhelmed them."(Gen 7:19,20)

Here is some evidence to consider. For example, around the Arctic Ocean there is a great swath of permanently frozen land, though now it is being affected by global warming, the greater part of which is covered with a frozen muck composed of sand, silt and earth. In an article entitled “Riddle of the Frozen Giants,†by Ivan T. Sanderson in the The Saturday Evening Post of January 16, 1960, observed: "The list of animals that have been thawed out of this mess would cover several pages. . . . They are all in the muck. These facts indicated water as the agency which engulfed the creatures. . . . many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . .Here is a really shocking-to our previous way of thinking-picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures, delicately plucking flowering buttercups at a temperature in which we would probably not even have needed a coat. Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature. What, we may well ask, could possibly do this?â€Â

Frank C. Hibben (1910-2002), an archaeologist at the University of New Mexico, recounted an expedition he made to Alaska in 1941 to look for human remains in his book The Lost Americans (1946). Instead of finding any human remains, "he found miles and miles of icy muck just packed with mammoths, mastodons, and several kinds of bison, horses, wolves, bears and lions. Just north of Fairbanks, Alaska, the members of the expedition watched in horror as bulldozers pushed the half-melted muck into sluice boxes for the extraction of gold. Animal tusks and bones rolled up in front of the blades like shavings before a giant plane. The carcasses were found in all attitudes of death, most of them pulled apart by some unexplainable prehistoric catastrophic disturbance." Also, a frozen mammoth was uncovered in Siberia in 1901. After thousands of years, vegetation was still in its mouth and stomach, and its flesh was still edible when thawed out.

What accounts for all these animals to have been massed together and "quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature" ?

When God was forming the earth for human habitation, at Genesis 1:6, God says: "Let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.†It then says that "God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse."(verse 7)

Thus, an immense watery canopy resided above the surface of the earth, just as there were water in areas called "Seas" on the land.(Gen 1:10) This enormous hot "thermal" blanket of water above the earth made the temperatures of the earth very comfortable for human and animal life, holding in the heat, just as thick insulating blanket on a bed does in the winter.

This water canopy above the earth was called in Hebrew, "heavenly ocean", for at Genesis 6:17, God says: "And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge (“the heavenly ocean.†Hebrew, ham·mab·bul´, Ps 29:10) of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire."

Hence, above the earth was a massive amount of water, like an ocean, that God caused to fall to the earth in the "six hundredth year of Noah's life". Describing what happened, it says: “All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.†(Gen 7:11) So overwhelming was the Deluge that “all the tall mountains that were under the whole heavens came to be covered.â€Â(Gen 7:19)

Before the Noachian Flood, there were much more water above the earth than was on the earth,(Gen 1:6-8) a "heavenly ocean" of water. This vast amount of "waters" was suspended above the earth or "expanse".("firmament", King James Bible) God caused this "heavenly ocean" of water to pour down upon the earth, with the "thermal blanket" being removed so rapidly that these animals were quick-frozen, preserved.

 

[Barbarian]

What accounts for all these animals to have been massed together and "quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved, despite their great bulk and their high temperature" ?

Nothing, because that's not what we find. Most of them are partially-decomposed, and many have evidence of being partially-eaten by scavengers. And it's laughable to say that they were warm-weather adapted. Most of them are the same sorts of animals seen during ice age Europe, from paintings made by humans at the time.

 

[lordkalvan]

Hell lordkalvan,
Yes, millions of "people live by or near large sources of water, whether rivers, lakes, or oceans", and, on occasion, are "subject to periodic floods 0f more or less severity." However, the flood of Noah's day encompassed the entire earth, with even the "tall mountains that are under the whole heavens came to be covered. Up to fifteen cubits (about 21.8 feet) the waters overwhelmed them."(Gen 7:19,20)....

The Barbarian's answer serves to point to the flaws in the 'Arctic burials', if I can call them that. This response does not really answer the points I raised, except by restating your argument as to the historicity of the Noachian flood. The 'water canopy' idea you put forward is wholly without evidence and, as far as I can tell, probably violates the laws of physics as well. It is estimated that at any given time there is about 3,100 cubic miles of water in the atmosphere (http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/watercycleatmosphere.html) compared with 332.5 million cubic miles of water in lakes, rivers, ocean, seas, ice-sheets, etc. Your scenario seems to be a recipe for catastrophic hyperthermia.

 

[nadab]

There are those who find the evidence interesting, if not compelling, causing one to give more of a serious look into the Bible account. To find a mammoth well preserved with green vegetation still in its mouth and edible when thawed out, causes some individuals to seriously give thought to their disdainful view of an earthwide flood. Only a very dramatic and rapid temperature change could deep freeze a mammoth with green vegetation still in its mouth, and make its flesh edible when unfrozen. Combine this with the many legends of a global deluge, and some begin to ponder that perhaps there was one.

Such an awesome catastrophe, if it really happened, would never have been completely forgotten. Hence, in many nations there are reminders of that destruction. Consider, for example, the precise date recorded in the Bible. The second month of the ancient calendar ran from what we now call mid-October to mid-November. So the 17th day corresponds approximately to the first of November. It may not be a coincidence, then, that in many lands, festivals for the dead are celebrated at that time of year.

Practically all ancient peoples have a legend that their ancestors survived a global flood. African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incasâ€â€all have similar legends, as do peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, among the Hindus, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zealand, such as the Maori tribe, and parts of North America, such as the Yakima and Choctaw Indians, to mention only a few.

Flood Legends Worldwide

Country - Correspondencies
Greece - 7
Rome - 6
Lithuania - 6
Assyria - 9
Tanzania - 7
India - Hindu - 6
New Zealand - Maori - 5
Micronesia - 7
Washington U.S.A. - Yakima - 7
Mississippi U.S.A. - Choctaw - 7
Mexico - Michoacan - 5
South America - Quechua - 4
Bolivia - Chiriguano - 5
Guyana - Arawak - 6

1: God angered by wickedness
2: Destruction by a flood
3: Ordered by God
4: Divine warning given
5: Few of mankind survive
6: Saved in a vessel
7: Animals saved
8: Bird or other creature sent out
9: Finally comes to rest on a mountain
10: Sacrifice offered

Even if more supporting evidence were provided, most likely this would in no way change your thoughts toward the Noachian Flood. To accept the Biblical account of an earthwide flood requires a measure of faith. It requires that one consider the words of Jesus Christ, who said that "as the days of Noah - so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man; for as they were, in the days before the flood, eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, till the day Noah entered into the ark, and they did not know (more accurately "took no note") till the flood came and took all away; so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man."(Matt 24:37-39, Young's Bible)

(source of some of the information - Watchtower Library)

 

[Barbarian]

Only a very dramatic and rapid temperature change could deep freeze a mammoth with green vegetation still in its mouth, and make its flesh edible when unfrozen.

Other than a mammoth dying shortly after eating a bit of vegetations, and then freezing. That or some kind of undocumented "sudden supercooling."

And since most such mammoths show sign of decay before sinking into the muck, it's pretty obvious they were not flash-frozen.

 

[Guest]

To find a mammoth well preserved with green vegetation still in its mouth and edible when thawed out, causes some individuals to seriously give thought to their disdainful view of an earthwide flood. Only a very dramatic and rapid temperature change could deep freeze a mammoth with green vegetation still in its mouth, and make its flesh edible when unfrozen.

Could a landslide account for a "dramatic and rapid temperature change" you are claiming is necessary?

 

[Guest]

I discovered the following counter-argument Were Siberian mammoths quick frozen, by creationist Michael Oard, against the "quick freeze hypothesis." He provides seven counter-arguments, but I don't have time at this moment to fully read and summarize them. However, it does provide one non-evolutionary rebuttal.

 

[lordkalvan]

Such an awesome catastrophe, if it really happened, would never have been completely forgotten. Hence, in many nations there are reminders of that destruction. Consider, for example, the precise date recorded in the Bible.

The 'precise date' being what, exactly? The reference seems to be to the 2nd month of Noah's 600th year.

The second month of the ancient calendar ran from what we now call mid-October to mid-November. So the 17th day corresponds approximately to the first of November. It may not be a coincidence, then, that in many lands, festivals for the dead are celebrated at that time of year.

Which calendar would that be? Do you have a reference, please? The Babylonian new year began with the first new moon following the vernal equinox, for example; this is quite clearly not in November. The Romans started their new year in March until the 1st century BC. The Celts started their new year at the start of November and celebrated Samhain - when ghosts of the dead returned to the land of the living - on the eve of November. This is the origin of Hallowmas, which itself was co-opted by Christianity as All Saints' Day.

 

[atheiststudent]

I'm scratching my head and I hope someone can help me out: How long was the flood supposed to have lasted? I had it in my head that the biblical flood was a 6 month-ish event. If you want to take giant clam fossils on mountaintops as proof of a global flood, wouldn't that require the flood to be longer... and I mean a *lot* longer? It takes many years to grow a decent sized giant clam, not to mention the time required for them to spread from the original intertidal oceans to submerged landmass. Can anyone share a quote that references a duration?

 

[lordkalvan]

...Practically all ancient peoples have a legend that their ancestors survived a global flood. African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incasâ€â€all have similar legends, as do peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, among the Hindus, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zealand, such as the Maori tribe, and parts of North America, such as the Yakima and Choctaw Indians, to mention only a few.

Let me return to the point I made before: floods are a ubiquitous feature of human history. Floods are a common feature of geological and meteorological disasters and of Earth-impact events. The 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami was caused by an undersea earthquake and killed some 225,000 people. The 1991 Bangladesh cyclone killed about 140,000 people and left 10 million homeless. A comet or meteor is believed to have impacted in the Indian Ocean around 3000 BC, causing a giant tsunami, flooding coastal lands and killing anyone unfortunate enough to be caught by it. The Black Sea may have been caused by catastrophic flooding from the Mediterranean Sea around 5600 BC. These are just a few of the devastating local or regional floods that easily give rise to stories about all-encompassing catastrophes. To these massive disasters can also be added local inundations caused by river flooding, perhaps coinciding with exceptionally high tides. Mesopotamia is an area of the ancient world that was particularly prone to major flooding events from frequent severe weather conditions. Even floods that only have a major local impact are a source of stories about those floods. The ubiquity of flood legends is, primarily, a function of the ubiquity of floods.

Flood Legends Worldwide

Country - Correspondencies
Greece - 7
Rome - 6
Lithuania - 6
Assyria - 9
Tanzania - 7
India - Hindu - 6
New Zealand - Maori - 5
Micronesia - 7
Washington U.S.A. - Yakima - 7
Mississippi U.S.A. - Choctaw - 7
Mexico - Michoacan - 5
South America - Quechua - 4
Bolivia - Chiriguano - 5
Guyana - Arawak - 6

1: God angered by wickedness
2: Destruction by a flood
3: Ordered by God
4: Divine warning given
5: Few of mankind survive
6: Saved in a vessel
7: Animals saved
8: Bird or other creature sent out
9: Finally comes to rest on a mountain
10: Sacrifice offered

I assume the term 'correspondencies' and the indicated numbers next to each area or people applies to the itemization of the ten phenomena listed below, in other words, for example, from the list of ten phenomena, five of them occur in the relevant Maori legend. I am going to respond on the basis of this assumption.

1. God(s) angered by wickedness: catastrophes were often interpreted as the result of the anger of the various divinities which have plagued humanity’s existence. This anger is rarely engendered by goodness. A flood sent by the gods to punish humanity for doing something those gods regarded as wicked is so unremarkable as to be worthless as confirming evidence of either a single global deluge or that the tales with this alleged correspondence had a single origin. If similar tales are associated with volcanic eruptions or earthquakes, would you regard them as evidence of a single global volcano or earthquake?

2. Destruction by a flood: the stories are about disastrous floods. If they do not include destruction by a flood, they are not flood stories. This supposed correspondence is at best circular and worthless as confirming evidence of a single global deluge. To anyone surviving the Indian Ocean meteor impact, the effects would have appeared to be total. Although they might very well claim the catastrophe as global, they would actually have no way of knowing whether it was or not. Would you regard any tale resulting from a catastrophic local or regional flood as evidence of a single global flood?

3. Ordered by the god(s): see (1). These are effectively the same correspondence. If the gods are angered by humanity’s wickedness and wish to punish humanity for its transgressions, the god(s) have to arrange for the punishment to occur.

4. Divine warning given: the lucky few have to survive for a reason. The most likely reason for survival when the cause of the disaster is divine is, of course, divine favour. This is not confirming evidence of a global deluge, nor that the tales with this alleged correspondence had a single origin.

5. Few of mankind survive: if lots of people survive, it’s scarcely a tale worthy of legend. Tales of distant noteworthy disasters rarely have many survivors or they wouldn’t be worth telling.

6. Saved in a vessel: it’s a flood; the options for survival are limited – you can flee to higher ground or you can take refuge on something that floats. This is not confirming evidence of a global deluge, nor that the tales with this alleged correspondence had a single origin. It is worth noting as well, for example, that there are a number of variations of the flood legend that you reference for Greece: in one version, while Deucalion and his wife survived by floating in a chest, a few others escaped by fleeing to the mountains; in another, Megarus escapes by swimming to a mountain that is not submerged. Which flood legend are you using to generate the correspondences?

7. Animals saved: if the animals aren’t saved, there will be no animals left to repopulate the land. If the story is that the flood is total and global, animals have to be saved to make the tale internally consistent; if no animals are saved, there can be no animals around when the story is being told. Again, this is circular reasoning. This is not confirming evidence of a global deluge, nor that the tales with this alleged correspondence had a single origin.

8. Bird or other creature sent out: the options are limited if the flood survivors want to find out if the flood is receding or not; they can either wait it out or devise some way of getting a sign. If they do not send out a volunteer, they must send an animal or a bird.

9. Finally comes to rest on a mountain: the options are limited; when a flood subsides any vessel is more likely to come to rest on higher ground than lower – anyway, it has to come to rest somewhere and a mountain is more dramatically satisfying that a mud-sodden valley.

10. Sacrifice offered: see (1), (3) and (6). The god(s) are already directly involved in causing the disaster and helping the survivors survive; those saved by the god(s) do well to honour them. Sacrifice is a common theme in legends and myths (consider the legends of the Greek heroes, for example). This is not confirming evidence of a global deluge, nor that the tales with this alleged correspondence had a single origin.

Even if more supporting evidence were provided, most likely this would in no way change your thoughts toward the Noachian Flood.

Well, if the evidence was anything other than looking for contrived correspondences amongst limited options, then a change of mind might be more likely. As it is, if flood myths are examined in depth, there will inevitably be correspondences because of the common features of the stories themselves; these correspondences are not evidence of a single origin for the tales, nor for there veracity, but rather of the ubiquity of floods in human experience and a widespread belief in direct intervention by the gods in human affairs

To accept the Biblical account of an earthwide flood requires a measure of faith.

I would suggest it depends wholly on faith.

 

[John]

To accept the Biblical account of an earthwide flood requires a measure of faith.

Not for me

 

[nadab]

Hello lordkalvan,

Only an animal that remains in a solidly frozen state is not subject to decay. The closer to the poles, the more likely of any animal or person remaining frozen, such as a young woman that died from the Spanish Flu in 1918 in a small Eskimo village of Brevig on the frozen tundra of the Seward Peninsula of Alaska and was exhumed by scientists out of the permafrost in 1997 for tissue evaluation, still frozen. All that dies decays if not frozen, just as a piece of frozen meat that has been set out to be cooked. Those mammoths or other animals that were in a region that warmed up beyond a "deep freeze" state would suffer as with any animal or person that has died, these will decompose. In addition, how could giant oysters have come to be over two miles upon a mountain in the Andes Mountain Range, Peru ? Thinking individuals realize that the Andes Mountains had to have been under water in the distant past.

Those discounting the Bible's account of the global deluge, thus casting aside the claim that the Bible is the work of our Creator, God, there is a problem with this view. If I may cite a proverb that says: "When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes; all he expected from his power comes to nothing."(Prov 11:7, New International Version) If one cast aside the Bible, what hope of a future life does one have ? No human has the power to keep himself alive forever. An estimate of from 14 to 20 billion people, small as well as great, have lived and died over the course of 6000 years of human history. What became of these ? As with the mammoths, these decomposed and return to the earth.

However, God gives a promise that no man can equal, that of living forever on a paradise earth in perfect health among those who treasure their relationship with their Creator, showing genuine love.(Rev 21:3-5) He will bring individuals back from the dead, resurrecting them.(John 5:28,29) To find acceptance of this though, requires looking into the Bible with a serious mind.

Please consider other historical areas that have been in the past challenged. Bible critics questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea who handed Jesus over to be impaled. (Matthew 27:1-26) Evidence that Pilate was once ruler of Judea is etched on a stone [1] discovered at the Mediterranean seaport city of Caesarea in 1961.

Before 1993, there was no proof outside the Bible to support the historicity of David, the brave young shepherd who later became king of Israel, though his name appears in the Bible over 1000 times. That year, however, archaeologists uncovered in northern Israel a basalt stone [2], dated to the ninth century B.C.E., that experts say bears the words “House of David†and “king of Israel.â€Â

There were many rulers on the world stage during the 16 centuries that the Bible was being written. When the Bible refers to a ruler, it always uses the proper title. For example, it correctly refers to Herod Antipas as “district ruler†and Gallio as “proconsul.†(Luke 3:1; Acts 18:12) Ezra 5:6 refers to Tattenai, the governor of the Persian province “beyond the River,†the Euphrates River. A coin produced in the fourth century B.C.E. contains a similar description, identifying the Persian governor Mazaeus as ruler of the province “Beyond the River.â€Â

Accuracy in seemingly minor details is no small matter. If we can trust the Bible writers in even small details, should that not bolster our confidence in the other things they wrote, such as the Noachian Flood ? Another detail worth noting is that some 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated that the earth is hanging “upon nothing.†(Job 26:7) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah clearly referred to “the circle [or, sphere] of the earth.†(Isaiah 40:22) A spherical earth held in empty space without any visible or physical means of supportâ€â€does not that description sound remarkably modern ?

Hence, the Bible has been and is continuing to be proved as accurate through various discoveries. That being the case, is it not worthy of a more serious consideration.

By the way, the Jewish secular calendar began in September with the month of Ethanim (Sept-Oct), down through 12 lunar months, although a 13th lunar month was added from time to time to adjust the calendar. The lunar month that consisted of October-November was called Bul under the later Jewish sacred calendar, and then after the release of the Jews from exile in Babylon in 607 B.C.E., was called Heshvan.

 

[lordkalvan]

Hi nadab,

Thanks for the discussion; it's interesting!

Only an animal that remains in a solidly frozen state is not subject to decay….

I do not understand how frozen animals, regardless of their state of preservation, are supposed to be evidence of the biblical flood. Is Otzi the Iceman from the Schnalstal Glacier in the Otztal Alps evidence of the biblical flood?

In addition, how could giant oysters have come to be over two miles upon a mountain in the Andes Mountain Range, Peru ? Thinking individuals realize that the Andes Mountains had to have been under water in the distant past.

In one word, orogeny. The Andes are young fold mountains, the result of the subduction of the Nazca plate under the South American plate. The boundary between the two plates is the Peru-Chile oceanic trench. The land that today forms the Andes was once beneath the ocean floor; the slow-processes of plate tectonics and mountain-building have raised that ocean floor to heights of thousands of metres.

…. Accuracy in seemingly minor details is no small matter. If we can trust the Bible writers in even small details, should that not bolster our confidence in the other things they wrote, such as the Noachian Flood?

Is it your argument that any religious text must be considered wholly accurate if parts of it can be demonstrated to be correct?

Another detail worth noting is that some 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated that the earth is hanging “upon nothing.†(Job 26:7)….

Job 26:11speaks of the ‘pillars of heaven’ trembling. Should we take this as an example of accurate astrophysics as well?

In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah clearly referred to “the circle [or, sphere] of the earth.†(Isaiah 40:22) A spherical earth held in empty space without any visible or physical means of supportâ€â€does not that description sound remarkably modern ?

So is the word properly translated as a circle or as a sphere? There is a significant and important difference. Isaiah 40:22 also tells us that ‘the inhabitants … are as grasshoppers’, that the heavens ‘stretcheth out … as a curtain, and spreadeth … out as a tent to dwell in.’ This reads remarkably poetically, heavy with metaphor and symbolism. Is it just those parts which can be bent to our current understanding of cosmology that we are supposed to treat literally, or is it all biblical references to such things? Are we to assume that when Joshua 10:12-13 talks of the sun standing still and the moon staying that these refer to actual events rather than poetic description? When Job 28:23-24 refers to the ‘ends of the earth’, is this poetic or literal? If literal, what are the ends of a sphere? Are there actual doors in heaven (Psalm 78: 23-24)? Does the Earth really have foundations (Psalm 104:5)? Were stars really cast to the ground (Daniel 8:10)?

By the way, the Jewish secular calendar began in September with the month of Ethanim (Sept-Oct), down through 12 lunar months, although a 13th lunar month was added from time to time to adjust the calendar. The lunar month that consisted of October-November was called Bul under the later Jewish sacred calendar, and then after the release of the Jews from exile in Babylon in 607 B.C.E., was called Heshvan.

Thanks for that clarification. According to Wiki, such evidence as is available for the postexilic Persian period indicates that the Hebrews used the Egyptian and Babylonian calendars. In passing, note that the Chinese day of the dead occurs in April and the Japanese in August.

 

[Crying Rock]

Even in fossil strata of deserts, we can find the remains of organisms caught in flash floods. Doesn't mean that it wasn't a desert.

It has been found that there existed quite a large quantity of dune rocks in the red sandstone of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata. Their sedimentary structure, grain size and micro-shape of sand grains show an obvious aeolian features. Both the temporal and spatial distribution and sedimentary characteristics of these dune rocks suggest that probably a large sand sea once existed in the Ordos region. It belonged to a subtropical inland trade-wind desert with persistent hot climate and was also an important part of the Cretaceous red desert in China.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c2h1px1n58506406/

What is the diagenesis of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata sandstone?
Does this paper say?

There probably are some Cretaceous deposits which formed under seas, but I can't name any just now.

Just FYI, when I say formed, I mean diagenesis. I don't mean what type environment existed prior to diagenesis. Hopefully that will clarify my question:

[quote="Crying Rock":2tdjia9w]Let me clarify: are there any known Cretaceous deposits which were formed on land? Again, I truly don't know the answer. In my neck of the woods all the Cretaceous deposits were formed in marine environments

So, as far as you know, Cretaceous deposits can be found all over the world (except where erosion removed them)?

[/quote:2tdjia9w]

Rock notes no response from Barbarian on the issues raised above.

 

[Barbarian]

What is the diagenesis of the Zhidan Group of Ordos Cretaceous strata sandstone?

How did it change after being laid down? You do understand that the formation of the Ordos sandstone was by the compaction and lithification of wind-blown (that's what "aeolian" means) sand.
Do you know how geologists can tell wind-blown cross-bedding from that which happens underwater?

The major difference I know about is the loss of porosity is more noticeable in the fluvial sandstones than in aeolian ones. What difference do you think it makes?

As I pointed out before, wind-produced deposits are clearly produced on land, not in water.