Proof of Trinity

[Chopper]

Permit me to utter a strong healthy amen to that magnificent and totally correct statement. Amen!

The doctrine of the Trinity is essential to any sane interpretation of the Bible and therefore to any reasonable Christian Theological System,
while the non-Trinitarian interpretation stands the Bible on it's head up-side down, and makes any rational/logical interpretation of the Bible
and Christianity utterly impossible.

On a non-Trinitarian approach to the Bible, to Christendom, to Christendom's Theological System, and to the Christian Philosophical System,
one can never rise higher .. lol .. than The Watchtower.

I note that the Gnostics and followers of Arius [Arianism] on the fringes of Christendom have had some 2000 years to preach their silliness,
yet they have failed to convert the huge body of Christendom over to their non-Trinitarian false doctrines.

♫

Amen to that Jack! You the Man!!

 

[jeff77]

Just being there will be sufficient for me.

Why is something like that and so esoteric important to you? Since the Bible is silent on us seeing God the Father or Holy Spirit to say "yes" or "no" is mere speculation.

I know! You are trying to start a fight, right?

Im just curious, not trying to start a fight. I think that in heaven we just see one form maybe Jesus? I believe in the trinity and because if there wasn't a trinity then it seems to me that one would have to view them as 3 separate Gods and we know the Bible doesn't teach that. I picture in my mind that they are all equal and the same being but God uses the two other forms to help us better understand. The reason I think we will only see Jesus in heaven is because he is the form we will recognize and the other two forms are no longer needed since the purpose for them has been fulfilled.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

Amen to that Jack! You the Man!!

:nod ← that's a "nod" smiley Chopper, according to the smiley chart. I was going to acknowledge your
post by hitting the "Like" icon, but alas those icons seem to have vanished in this thread.

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪


`

 

[jasoncran]

Im just curious, not trying to start a fight. I think that in heaven we just see one form maybe Jesus? I believe in the trinity and because if there wasn't a trinity then it seems to me that one would have to view them as 3 separate Gods and we know the Bible doesn't teach that. I picture in my mind that they are all equal and the same being but God uses the two other forms to help us better understand. The reason I think we will only see Jesus in heaven is because he is the form we will recognize and the other two forms are no longer needed since the purpose for them has been fulfilled.

how does the Father and the Holy Spirit simply fade away?

 

[jeff77]

how does the Father and the Holy Spirit simply fade away?

I don't really know? Maybe they don't fade away they join together or something. I guess if they did fade away it wouldn't really matter because they are all the same and if you have one of them then you have all of them. When I say it wouldn't matter I am speaking only about the future and not now because we know the purpose for the Holy Spirit and Jesus while we are still here. Actually that made me think of another question. Will we still have the Holy Spirit inside of us in heaven?

 

[jasoncran]

I don't really know? Maybe they don't fade away they join together or something. I guess if they did fade away it wouldn't really matter because they are all the same and if you have one of them then you have all of them. When I say it wouldn't matter I am speaking only about the future and not now because we know the purpose for the Holy Spirit and Jesus while we are still here. Actually that made me think of another question. Will we still have the Holy Spirit inside of us in heaven?

no, we don't but that doesn't He nor the FATHER wont exist forever.they are eternal.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Chopper #434

Thank you for the welcome. I'm only 71. I've been reading the Bible a while now. A few years ago a good and well meaning friend gave me a Bible that I couldn't read. The print was too small. He was a Christian who was atypical of the breed. A mutation perhaps. Conservative Protestant who judged no one. I bought another Bible because he was a good friend and I thought if it's important to him, I should take a gander. A nice giant print black letter KJV that I still use. It's large and heavy, which gives it a substantial feel to me

The reason I'm not a Christian is because Christians do not wish me to be. And most use some form of disciplinary action to make sure I never become one. Closed communion, for example. I've been to a couple of denominations that don't practice closed communion. But one is still a second class citizen if one doesn't go along with their Tradition. I don't think that's Biblical. But that's just me. Obviously Christians disagree or they wouldn't keep doing it. I question the deity of Christ. So 99.9% say I'm not saved. Or being saved as the Catholics would say. To them I've committed a mortal sin and apart from denying my own mind (which is not what faith is about to me), repentance they call it, I'm headed for hell. Free, your fellow Moderator put it this way, "the stronger argument could be made that if one doesn't believe that Jesus is God then they aren't saved". I also question the idea that the deity of Christ is impossible. That pretty much accounts for the other 1% thinking I'm not saved.

At this point, I really don't want to be a part of Christianity. Not only is it divided by denominational interpretations, but it's way too judgmental. An interpretive case for judging outsiders could be made, I suppose. That they haven't accepted God's free gift in Christ, and that sort of thing. But there's no excuse for them judging one another the way they do. Christianity is too dysfunctional a family for me to want to be a part of it. I'd rather just be a simple believer on the outside looking in, if anything. But Christianity is what it is. And Christianity is the only expression related to the Christian Bible that I'm aware of. So I doubt more than just the Trinity. Thus I'm an Agnostic. If God will forgive the Christians for the mess they've made of things, I think he'll take my situation into account as well. If not, then I'll have plenty of Christian company in hell. And I'll feel sorry for the Atheists. Because they still won't be rid of them. And that surely will be hell to them.

I'm really only on this forum to see what the people have to offer regarding what I said in my post #407. Perhaps you would like to offer something.

As I said elsewhere, My name is actually Jesse Stone. And I only learned about three years ago of Tom Sellecks 8 movies in which the main character has the same name as I do. Just as a matter of curiosity, have you watched the Jesse Stone movies? When CBS cut it off they gave as a reason that it was only being watched by old people.

Jack Hectorman said

The doctrine of the Trinity is essential to any sane interpretation of the Bible and therefore to any reasonable Christian Theological System, while the non-Trinitarian interpretation stands the Bible on it's head up-side down, and makes any rational/logical interpretation of the Bible and Christianity utterly impossible.

To which Chopper replied in #441:

Amen to that Jack! You the Man!!

Administrator Chopper. That "we got it together and everybody else is an idiot" is exactly the kind of thinking that makes me glad I'm not a Christian. Sorry you Christians have to live with it. I don't.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Teddy Trueblood #440

My ever-increasing lack of energy, poor memory, and often painful vision have all contributed to my not participating here as often as I would like.

I'm sorry to hear that. May God be with you. That may sound like a non-Jedi saying may the force be with you, coming from an Agnostic. But I hope you can take it in the spirit in which it is given.

If you're suffering from old age like Chopper and myself, perhaps you could tell me if you've watched the Jesse Stone movies. In my curiosity, I'm kind of taking a survey.

If you would like to see what I have in my studies (and on my blog), please look at your profile posts on this site.

In spite of my mediocrity, I figured out what a profile post is. And saw things I hadn't seen before. Thanks.

 

[Asyncritus]

Hey Jesse

Post #407 is entirely in line with my thinking. Drop me a line.

 

[jeff77]

no, we don't but that doesn't He nor the FATHER wont exist forever.they are eternal.

Good point Jason. I never really thought to deep into this topic in general until I looked at this thread so I have a lot to learn.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper #434

Thank you for the welcome. I'm only 71. I've been reading the Bible a while now. A few years ago a good and well meaning friend gave me a Bible that I couldn't read. The print was too small. He was a Christian who was atypical of the breed. A mutation perhaps. Conservative Protestant who judged no one. I bought another Bible because he was a good friend and I thought if it's important to him, I should take a gander. A nice giant print black letter KJV that I still use. It's large and heavy, which gives it a substantial feel to me

The reason I'm not a Christian is because Christians do not wish me to be. And most use some form of disciplinary action to make sure I never become one. Closed communion, for example. I've been to a couple of denominations that don't practice closed communion. But one is still a second class citizen if one doesn't go along with their Tradition. I don't think that's Biblical. But that's just me. Obviously Christians disagree or they wouldn't keep doing it. I question the deity of Christ. So 99.9% say I'm not saved. Or being saved as the Catholics would say. To them I've committed a mortal sin and apart from denying my own mind (which is not what faith is about to me), repentance they call it, I'm headed for hell. Free, your fellow Moderator put it this way, "the stronger argument could be made that if one doesn't believe that Jesus is God then they aren't saved". I also question the idea that the deity of Christ is impossible. That pretty much accounts for the other 1% thinking I'm not saved.

At this point, I really don't want to be a part of Christianity. Not only is it divided by denominational interpretations, but it's way too judgmental. An interpretive case for judging outsiders could be made, I suppose. That they haven't accepted God's free gift in Christ, and that sort of thing. But there's no excuse for them judging one another the way they do. Christianity is too dysfunctional a family for me to want to be a part of it. I'd rather just be a simple believer on the outside looking in, if anything. But Christianity is what it is. And Christianity is the only expression related to the Christian Bible that I'm aware of. So I doubt more than just the Trinity. Thus I'm an Agnostic. If God will forgive the Christians for the mess they've made of things, I think he'll take my situation into account as well. If not, then I'll have plenty of Christian company in hell. And I'll feel sorry for the Atheists. Because they still won't be rid of them. And that surely will be hell to them.

I'm really only on this forum to see what the people have to offer regarding what I said in my post #407. Perhaps you would like to offer something.

As I said elsewhere, My name is actually Jesse Stone. And I only learned about three years ago of Tom Sellecks 8 movies in which the main character has the same name as I do. Just as a matter of curiosity, have you watched the Jesse Stone movies? When CBS cut it off they gave as a reason that it was only being watched by old people.



Administrator Chopper. That "we got it together and everybody else is an idiot" is exactly the kind of thinking that makes me glad I'm not a Christian. Sorry you Christians have to live with it. I don't.

Hello again old timer Jesse, Thank you for your portrait of modern Christianity. It's all true, and more. I could list, at least the same amount of failings of Christianity. No argument here. I am sorry that I present such a miserable example of a life that should be free from all you have presented. You see, Christianity will never live up to an example of the God whom I worship. I wish you would not look at my failings as an example but study the God that I should represent. He is perfect in all His ways, I am imperfect in all my ways. God should be your Savior because of how gracious and forgiving He is, to put up with me. He, if you would let Him would make you, along with your efforts, a proper representative of a child of God.

Please forgive me for being a lousy example of a Christian. If you do become a follower of Jesus Christ, look me up on this Forum and teach me how to change, I promise to heed your teachings. Until then, I hope the remaining years that you have will be filled with joy, and most of all, the remaining years after you die will be with Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Jesse, your mention of the Jesse Stone movies encouraged me to look them up. I had never heard of them and was completely taken by surprise by the amount of them. I was also glad to see Tom Selleck still working and as I understand playing the character of Jesse Stone. My question is what is your connection with this series of movies written by Robert Parker? Is there some Christian theme conveyed in the films?

I was indeed saddened to read your testimony of not being a Christian and the rationalized reasons to come to that conclusion. I would say that is a reason the body of Christ is made up of all who have received or believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; even those that do no more than call on His name. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? The assembly I attend when I can has none of the distractions that come as the result of man-made organization, for we have no membership. In fact Paul preached against such practices in:
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

We have baptismal professions of having received Christ, memorial communions, and I have never experienced what you describe; if so I would just stay home reading my bible. Thanks for your input. We need you young fellas around here.



Thanks.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

A devotional thought, an affirmation of faith, and a prayer:

I enjoy reading some of the great creeds of Christendom devotionally
and once I made some written notes as I was reading along and then
later I wrote the following into a prayer to God and I taped it to the
front flyleaf of my Bible and I pray this affirmation of my faith and this
prayer to the Lord regularly:

My Strong Beliefs And My Prayer:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and
earth, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord: who was conceived
by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.

The third day He rose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and
sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall
come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy worldwide church Christendom, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

I submit to the Sovereignty of God with humility and a prayer for mercy
and grace. I submit to the Christian Church the body of Christ as
built upon, and only upon, the teachings of the Holy Bible's prophets
and apostles all being inspired by God. I pray to the Sovereign God
of the Bible for mercy and grace on the merits of the Lord Christ. In
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, one God
in Three Persons. Blessed Trinity. Amen.

_____

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

PS
God Bless His Christian Church .. Christendom.

`

 

[Chopper]

A devotional thought, an affirmation of faith, and a prayer:

I enjoy reading some of the great creeds of Christendom devotionally
and once I made some written notes as I was reading along and then
later I wrote the following into a prayer to God and I taped it to the
front flyleaf of my Bible and I pray this affirmation of my faith and this
prayer to the Lord regularly:

My Strong Beliefs And My Prayer:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and
earth, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord: who was conceived
by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.

The third day He rose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and
sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall
come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy worldwide church Christendom, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

I submit to the Sovereignty of God with humility and a prayer for mercy
and grace. I submit to the Christian Church the body of Christ as
built upon, and only upon, the teachings of the Holy Bible's prophets
and apostles all being inspired by God. I pray to the Sovereign God
of the Bible for mercy and grace on the merits of the Lord Christ. In
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, one God
in Three Persons. Blessed Trinity. Amen.

_____

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

PS
God Bless His Christian Church .. Christendom.

`

I like that very much! Can I have your permission to copy it?

 

[Jack Hectorman]

I like that very much! Can I have your permission to copy it?

* /smile .. Chooper, you sure can copy it and use it any way you see fit... feel free to modify it too and make it better ..

* glad you liked it ...

♫ ♪

 

[Free]

Dear Jesse, your mention of the Jesse Stone movies encouraged me to look them up. I had never heard of them and was completely taken by surprise by the amount of them. I was also glad to see Tom Selleck still working and as I understand playing the character of Jesse Stone. My question is what is your connection with this series of movies written by Robert Parker? Is there some Christian theme conveyed in the films?

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/jesse-stone-movies.52040/

 

[teddy trueblood]

Jesse wrote:

If you're suffering from old age like Chopper and myself, perhaps you could tell me if you've watched the Jesse Stone movies. In my curiosity, I'm kind of taking a survey.



In spite of my mediocrity, I figured out what a profile post is. And saw things I hadn't seen before. Thanks.

I've only recently begun watching the Jesse Stone movies via Netflix. So far, I've enjoyed them very much. Must be because I'm old.

 

[jasoncran]

Good point Jason. I never really thought to deep into this topic in general until I looked at this thread so I have a lot to learn.

you wont stop learning.our minds cant fathom the nature of god.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Chopper #451

Greetings fellow member of the Society for the Advancement of Wheezin Geezers.

Thank you for your portrait of modern Christianity. It's all true, and more. I could list, at least the same amount of failings of Christianity. No argument here. I am sorry that I present such a miserable example of a life that should be free from all you have presented. You see, Christianity will never live up to an example of the God whom I worship.

We all eventually betray in some way what we truly think underneath all the sham that we've built up on the outside to hide what we truly think underneath. "Hear them for what they say, know them by what they do." Stone's Law. Christianity speaks big things while doing its own little things. Christianity lives up to the potential of its own thinking, which has little to do with the God of the Bible. Fortunately, there are a few Christians who transcend Christianity. I'm happy to have known a few of the few.

I wish you would not look at my failings as an example but study the God that I should represent.

Jesus said,

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Do you understand what that implies?

Or this:

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:15-22)

While this passage refers explicitly to the detection of false prophets, the principle can be applied to anyone. Fruit reveals the tree for what it really is. This doesn't apply to you so much as it applies to those who originated or perpetuate the Christian denominations. But make no mistake. A fruit of failings implies a very serious problem. I would point out that it is infinitely better to follow Christ, not Christianity. And not to make the mistake of thinking that following Christ and following Christianity is one and the same.

He [God] is perfect in all His ways

Yes he is.

I am imperfect in all my ways.

But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-6)

I don't think Peter said that just to hear himself talk. The Greek word hagios (translated holy) means to be pure. In all that we think, in all that we do. Christians have a different understanding of that word. That it means separation. And they practice that meaning to the full. There's a big difference between stumbling and a life style.

God should be your Savior because of how gracious and forgiving He is, to put up with me.

"Put up with" is your characterization. You know yourself better than I.

He, if you would let Him would make you, along with your efforts, a proper representative of a child of God.

Why should I (a non-Christian) believe that, if you (a Christian) are not a proper example? If you don't even consider yourself a proper example?

Please forgive me for being a lousy example of a Christian.

I can forgive. I can't forget.

If you do become a follower of Jesus Christ, look me up on this Forum and teach me how to change, I promise to heed your teachings.

Of course, grasshopper.

I don't need to be a Christian to know that the key is for you to follow Jesus Christ, and to follow me only to the extent that I follow Christ. (e.g., 1 Corinthians 11:1) Better yet, don't follow me at all. Follow Jesus Christ and then we can both follow him together. (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:10-31)

Until then, I hope the remaining years that you have will be filled with joy, and most of all, the remaining years after you die will be with Jesus.

Thank you. It is my hope as well. I may not have a lot of faith, but I do have a lot of hope.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Eugene #452

your mention of the Jesse Stone movies encouraged me to look them up. I had never heard of them and was completely taken by surprise by the amount of them. I was also glad to see Tom Selleck still working and as I understand playing the character of Jesse Stone. My question is what is your connection with this series of movies written by Robert Parker? Is there some Christian theme conveyed in the films?

The movies are based on books written by the late Robert Parker (d. 2010). The books are different from the movies and are good in their own right. Selleck is currently starring in a TV series called "Blue Bloods" now in its fourth season. Another cop show that is much like the three Charles Bronson movies called "A Family of Cops". Which I think were better.

There is a sub forum on this forum called "Popular Culture". I started a thread there called "Jesse Stone Movies". Didn't think it appropriate to post a large post on the movies on a thread about the Trinity. So far no one has responded except me. The original post answers your questions from my point of view.

I just noted that Free was kind enough to post a link to the Jesse Stone thread. For which I am thankful.

I was indeed saddened to read your testimony of not being a Christian and the rationalized reasons to come to that conclusion.

Big difference between rationalization and realization.

I would say that is a reason the body of Christ is made up of all who have received or believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; even those that do no more than call on His name. etc.

Perhaps for a death bed conversion. But for the rest:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:17-26)

And this:

4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 John 3:4-10)

And this:

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:1-6)

And especially this:

20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17:20-26)

Eugene quoted:

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

An excuse is an excuse is an excuse. Consider what Paul said before and after that.

We have baptismal professions of having received Christ, memorial communions, and I have never experienced what you describe; if so I would just stay home reading my bible.

I would say you need to get out more. But if all it would do is cause you to stay home, then you're better off to not have experienced it. Nevertheless, here you are. On this forum. A Moderator. You are experiencing what I have experienced. Right here. Right now. On this forum. On this thread.

I'm probably going to regret all this Bible quoting on these last two posts. And what's worse, they have nothing to do with the Trinity. Good thing I'm responding to Monitors.