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I have stated from the start Jesus is not the deity. He is the Son of God. The fullness of the deity (given) was pleased to dwell IN Him. In that He is the image of the living (invisible) God. As Jesus stated, all authority in heaven and earth was given to Him.

Again - Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is
No, He has always been the Son


Now let me ask this. Do you believe the Holy Spirit has His own mind and will like the Son? Because what I read is that Spirit searches the deep thoughts or mind of God or mind of the Spirit. The Spirit speaks what He hears. As in those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son.

Because God is Spirit the God of Hosts can send His Spirit into the world and indeed into our hearts. (A circumcision not by the will and hands of man by by the Will of God and by the Spirit of God) How God writes a new covenant on the hearts of the people just as He foretold.

Randy
I believe that the will of the Spirit is that of the Father and of the Son, as He is their Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit talk to One-another. In this, they themselves demonstrate a distinction among themselves. Only from our human perspective do we call each member of God a 'Person.'

It is God, through all three Persons of their triune being, who teach that the Son of God is God;. Even while having a body of flesh the Son is still God; as He is identified as the I Am, YHWH, Elohim; and is to be worshiped as God in the same way as before His Incarnation.

Their One-ness has been demonstrated in part by God's own words and actions. By faith I accept what God has told us; setting aside intellect, reason, common sense, logic; as those things cause a man to define his own god.
 
Trinitarians see white light, and call it so; this while knowing that it is comprised of green, red, and blue light.

Non-Triitarians see white light, and call it so; unable to comprehend that it is comprised of the three primary colors of light.
 
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Gregg:
Trinitarians see white light, and call it so; this while knowing that it is comprised of blue, red, and green light.

Non-Triitarians see white light, and call it so; unable to comprehend that it is comprised of the three primary colors of light.

T2: There is a scripture telling us that God’s attributes can be seen in His creation:

Ro. 1:20, NASB - ‘For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.’

Obviously the “3 primary colors” was not understood by man from the beginning.

In fact, it (like the “3 forms of matter” example) is even a poor example for the trinity today.

White light was discovered by Sir Isaac Newton to be composed of ALL the colors. The “3 primary colors” do not have to be only blue, red, and green. Other combinations of three colors can also produce the same effect.

In fact, it has been proven that even combinations of TWO colors can also produce the same effect.

“About 1955 Edwin H. Land demonstrated that this combination [red and white] or ANY

OTHER COMBINATION OF TWO COLORS ... could be made to yield a full gamut of [perceived] color.” - Plate 4, p. 38, Encyclopedia International, Vol. 5, 1966.
 
I don't understand how you can adhere to this view of Christ before creation.

As I have pointed out on several occasions, God says in 2 Sam 7 that Jesus WILL BE His Son, and God WILL BE His Father.

Hadn't happened yet.

Same with Ps 2: 'Thou art my son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee'. It either happened the same day the psalm was written, or as Paul says, on the Day of Resurrection (Rom 1.4)

In either case, that was LONG AFTER creation.

Further, Ps 89 clearly says "I WILL MAKE HIM my firstborn" which clearly means that He wasn't God's Firstborn AS YET.

Free, as you can see from the above, I don't believe Jesus pre-existed apart from being a huge part of the purpose of God with the earth and its inhabitants.


12 "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever." ' " 17 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David. 2 Samuel 7:12-17

I will be his Father - This is a reference to Solomon.

Now He said to me, 'It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father. 1 Chronicles 28:6


But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Hebrews 1:8


You must learn to rightly divide the word of truth.


JLB
 
With all due respect, JLB, you have utterly failed to even mention those highly important passages I listed.

Just to remind you, they are:

God says in 2 Sam 7 that Jesus WILL BE His Son, and God WILL BE His Father.

Hadn't happened yet.

Same with Ps 2: 'Thou art my son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee'. It either happened the same day the psalm was written, or as Paul says, on the Day of Resurrection (Rom 1.4)

In either case, that was LONG AFTER creation.

Further, Ps 89 clearly says "I WILL MAKE HIM my firstborn" which clearly means that He wasn't God's Firstborn AS YET.

Since these were written long BEFORE any of the New Testament, it is incumbent on you to address them, since the NT cannot contradict the OT.

Over to you.


7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
Psalm 2:7-8

This is a reference to the Messiah, who became flesh.

If He became flesh, what was he before He became flesh?

Here is what the scripture teaches us -

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

God was manifested in the flesh.

Was it God the Father or the Son who was manifested in the flesh?

The scripture teaches us -

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The Son of God became Flesh.

God became flesh.


You must learn to rightly divide the word of truth.


JLB
 
I don't understand how you can adhere to this view of Christ before creation.

As I have pointed out on several occasions, God says in 2 Sam 7 that Jesus WILL BE His Son, and God WILL BE His Father.

Hadn't happened yet.

Same with Ps 2: 'Thou art my son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee'. It either happened the same day the psalm was written, or as Paul says, on the Day of Resurrection (Rom 1.4)

In either case, that was LONG AFTER creation.

Further, Ps 89 clearly says "I WILL MAKE HIM my firstborn" which clearly means that He wasn't God's Firstborn AS YET.

Free, as you can see from the above, I don't believe Jesus pre-existed apart from being a huge part of the purpose of God with the earth and its inhabitants.

. 26 He shall cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.' 27 Also I will make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall stand firm with him. 29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. 30 "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, 31 If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, 32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. 35 Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David: Psalm 89:26-35


I will make him My firstborn is a reference to Solomon.

as it is written -

I will not lie to David.

Of the Son He says -

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

The Son became flesh, as the Messiah He is a man, sent to redeem all of mankind from sin.

Before He became flesh, He was God.

Look at this scripture with me in Zechariah -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Who is speaking hear in this verse, through Zechariah?

Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

This is YHWH is foretells of being pierced at the cross.

YHWH became flesh, and dwelt among men and took our sin at the cross.

as it is written -

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made....
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

God became flesh.

The Word became flesh.

YHWH became flesh.

The Son became flesh.



JLB
 
JLB,

From my study of 1 Tim. 3:16:

1 Tim. 3:16 ("God was manifest in the flesh")

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he(NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation),he who(ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt),who,” orwhich.” Even the equally old Douay version haswhich was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?
Noted trinitarian Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott and Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

He who (hos
[or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.
 
Heb. 1:8 is interpreted in more than one way even by Trinitarian scholars. Please see my Heb. 1:8 study: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/heb-18.html

4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

"I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

"You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands...

The firstborn was God's Only Begotten that was brought into the world.

He is called the firstborn over all creation.

He was the firstborn before the creation, and was brought into the world.

The Word BECAME flesh.

God was manifested in the flesh.


JLB

 
JLB,

From my study of 1 Tim. 3:16:

1 Tim. 3:16 ("God was manifest in the flesh")

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he(NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation),he who(ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt),who,” orwhich.” Even the equally old Douay version haswhich was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?
Noted trinitarian Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts – though the majority even of Byzantine manuscripts still preserved the true reading.” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott and Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:
He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:
The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

Your lexicon gymnastics will not change one single thing.

The scriptures clearly teach us -

God was manifested in the flesh, that is to say The Word became flesh.

YHWH declared through the mouth of Zechariah that "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

YHWH the Lord God Almighty Himself proclaimed that He would be pierced...

Scripture interprets scripture.

Not commentary interprets scripture.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, Colossians 1:15-19

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth...


Jesus is YHWH, The Lord God Almighty, the creator of Heaven and Earth.

The Only Begotten of The Father.


JLB
 
Your lexicon gymnastics will not change one single thing.

The scriptures clearly teach us -

God was manifested in the flesh, that is to say The Word became flesh.

YHWH declared through the mouth of Zechariah that "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

YHWH the Lord God Almighty Himself proclaimed that He would be pierced...

Scripture interprets scripture.

Not commentary interprets scripture.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, Colossians 1:15-19

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth...


Jesus is YHWH, The Lord God Almighty, the creator of Heaven and Earth.

The Only Begotten of The Father.


JLB

If you would bother to read what I have written, you would see that it is not MY "Lexicon gymnastics." It is the very words of noted Trinitarian scholars!

So, you're saying that the following are not scripture, but your translation, whatever it is, must be the only true scripture:

NASB, ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.
 
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From my Heb. 1:8 study:

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God- p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, Trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,

“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV),and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

When even so many Trinitarian scholars agree that this is a scripture that can honestly be rendered as “God is your throne,” it is certainly not evidence for an honest Trinitarian ‘proof.’
 
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From my Heb. 1:8 study:

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God- p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, Trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,

“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV),and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

When even so many Trinitarian scholars agree that this is a scripture that can honestly be rendered as “God is your throne,” it is certainly not evidence for an honest Trinitarian ‘proof.’
Teddy,

I want to understand some of the things that influence your reasoning. Are you a christadelphian or a jehovah witness?
 
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Your boards here are for discussion. Some copy and paste is to be expected but over and over... not a good idea.
 
From my Heb. 1:8 study:

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God- p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, Trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,

“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV),and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

When even so many Trinitarian scholars agree that this is a scripture that can honestly be rendered as “God is your throne,” it is certainly not evidence for an honest Trinitarian ‘proof.’


8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 NKJV

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 KJV

8 but of the Son [he saith,] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 American Standard Version

8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 New Revised Standard Version

8 But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 Revised Standard Version

8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. Hebrews 1:8 New American Standard

8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 New International Version


Here are the top 7 accepted versions of the Bible. They all say the same thing. "Your throne, O God... referencing Jesus The Son as God.


Sorry, you use of off the wall versions of the Bible to try and undermine the very foundation of Christianity, and pass you "theory" off as substantiated truth has become as chaff on the summer threshing floor, and has been blown away by the Spirit of Truth.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

The means - Jesus Christ is YHWH.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!

There is One Lord and He is God, the creator of heaven and earth!


JLB
 
I believe that the will of the Spirit is that of the Father and of the Son, as He is their Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit talk to One-another. In this, they themselves demonstrate a distinction among themselves. Only from our human perspective do we call each member of God a 'Person.'

It is God, through all three Persons of their triune being, who teach that the Son of God is God;. Even while having a body of flesh the Son is still God; as He is identified as the I Am, YHWH, Elohim; and is to be worshiped as God in the same way as before His Incarnation.

Their One-ness has been demonstrated in part by God's own words and actions. By faith I accept what God has told us; setting aside intellect, reason, common sense, logic; as those things cause a man to define his own god.


Well I guess we will disagree. I see the Holy Spirit as belonging to the Father. His Spirit. His to give and His to take. Jesus has authority to send the Spirit that He received from the Father. (thats not in question) I don't see anything in scripture that states the HS has a different mind as a distinct separate person. Jesus taught why He and the Father are one. Just as He taught how Jesus and those that belong to Him are one.

I guess we will end here because nobody in this thread has changed their mind.

Randy
 
Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
Teddy,

Young's Literal Translation interprets Heb 1:8 as: "and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age;' " (Heb 1:8).
Young's Analytical Concordance To The Bible reads "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever".

Why would you not publicize Young's full and true interpretation of Heb 1:8?

You mis-characterize Young in the process of mis-characterizing the Bible.
 
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From my Heb. 1:8 study:

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Teddy,

You quote the 'bibles' listed above.

Please give a simple 'Yes' or 'No' answer to this question: Do you accept those 'bibles' as the inspired word of God?
 
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"You are My witnesses, says Jehovah; and My servant whom I have elected; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall any be after Me. I, I am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me" (Isaiah 43:10-11).

That Savior is the LORD Jesus Christ:

Savior of the world (1 Jn 4:14)
our Savior Jesus Christ (2 Tim 1:10)
our God and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Pet 1:1)
the LORD and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Pet 2:20)
our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Pet 3:18)
the LORD Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 1:4)
our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)
we eagerly wait for a Savior, the LORD Jesus Christ (Phil 3:20)
Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 3:6)
a Savior who is Christ the LORD (Luke 2:11)
Savior of the Church (Eph 5:23)
 
I don't see anything in scripture that states the HS has a different mind as a distinct separate person.
Randy

Ever read this verse?
Romans 8:27
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God.

[Modes don’t have mindsets. But persons do.]


Or these:

2 Samuel 23:2
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
2 “The spirit of Yahweh speaks through me, and his word is upon my tongue.

[a none-person does not "speak" through someone. Why not just say Yahweh speaks through me, were it not for the fact that the HS is a person, capable of speech Himself.]

Isaiah 63:10
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
10 But they were the ones who rebelled,
and they grieved his Holy Spirit,
so he became an enemy to them;
he himself fought against them.

[a mode doesn't grieve. Why not just say they grieved Him versus grieved His Spirit were it not true that the HS is a person, capable of grief?]


Ezekiel 3:24
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
24 And the Spirit came into me, and it made me stand on my feet, and he spoke with me and said to me, “Come, shut yourself inside your house,

[it was the Holy Spirit speaking]


NT Teaching:


John 16:13 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
13 But when he—the Spirit of truth—comes, he will guide you into all the truth. For he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will proclaim to you the things to come.

[He comes. That is The Spirit comes. This person (HS) doesn’t speak for Himslef.]


Acts 5:3
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, for what reason has Satan filled your heart, that you lied to the Holy Spirit and kept back for yourself some of the proceeds of the piece of land?

[You lie to persons, not modes]

Acts 10:19 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
19 And while Peter was reflecting about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, men are looking for you.

Acts 13:2
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
2 And while they were serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart now for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

[Modes don’t have conversations.]

Ephesians 4:30
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
30 and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

[Paul agrees with Isaiah. Almost as if they are both inspired by the one and the same HS.]

1 Corinthians 12:11
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
11 But in all these things one and the same Spirit is at work, distributing to each one individually just as he wishes.

[Woops. Modes don’t work nor have “wishes”]

Romans 8:11
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.

[Paul talks of the Spirit as a separate person from Jesus and the Father. Don’t believe it?]

Revelation 14:13
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write:
‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’”
Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow after them.”


[The Spirit talking about The Lord. I.e. two persons here.]
 
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