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Proof of Trinity

As far as I know the Father and Son have made their home with me. If God's (the one who promised to pour out His Spirit in the last days) own Spirit has His own name or personality or a mind or a will that is distinct from God the Father then I am not aware of who He is. You act like the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is a 3rd person. What I see is the Father sending HIS Spirit into the world and into the hearts of the children in Jesus's name. (Children-Those that obey Gods command and hold to the testimony of Jesus)

Randy
This is substantially correct, Randy.

I fail to understand how people cannot see that the HS is the power of God, and which He (the Father) personalises in the writings of scripture.

There are not 3 PERSONS being spoken of: There is One God (the Father), and Jesus Christ (His Son). It would indeed be strange if the HS is a third person, descending on Jesus at the Jordan, and splitting 'himself' into 120 pieces on the day of Pentecost!

That God does the influencing of our minds cannot be doubted: He did so very many times in the Acts, allowing the disciples and converts to speak in tongues and do the other recorded and unrecorded miracles.

This is how the Acts puts the matter:

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So God had promised to give the Holy Spirit to Jesus, which He did "without measure" in John's record:

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

I find this impossible to understand if the spirit is a PERSON.

However, having given the spirit to Jesus, Jesus sent forth that power of God upon His disciples, and the onlookers both saw and heard its effects.

Incidentally, what are these passages all about?

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

How many Holy Spirits did you say there were?
 
I don't have any problem at all.

The prophecy was a reference to both Solomon as well as The Messiah.

Concerning the Messiah, the scripture says -

But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:5-10

The Messiah is God.

God was manifested in the flesh.

The Word was God and became flesh.


JLB

You are failing to answer any of the real questions being raised JLB, and I'm sure the readers will have no difficulty in noting your persistent avoiding tactics.

As you (and they) presumably know, prophecies have 2 fulfilments: a near one, and a distant, second one.

That is obviously what happened to 2 Sam 7. The first fulfilment, and it can only be a PARTIAL fulfilment, was in Solomon.

The greater fulfilment, by far, is in Christ.

So if that statement is correct, the I WILL BE His Father and He SHALL BE my Son, refers to Christ.

If that is so, then I repeat, AT THE TIME OF WRITING, Jesus was GOING TO BE His Son, but WASN'T SO AS YET. So where is your Son 'from eternity' gone then?

You still haven't even touched the points made by Psalm 2 and Psalm 89. When are you going to do so? Quoting Heb 1 doesn't help you at all. It merely establishes that Jesus was His Son.

Question: From when?

Ps 89.23 I WILL MAKE him my firstborn

This is clearly also future to the time of the writing of the Psalm.

Given that, Jesus did not pre-exist from before Gen 1. But I wait to hear your explanation of this point, which is a quite major one, in my opinion.

And Psalm 2: Thou art my son THIS DAY have I begotten thee.


Which Day? The day the Psalm was written, or the Day of Resurrection as Paul says in Rom 1. 4?

In either case, it is very clear that Jesus was not the Son AT THE TIME OF WRITING.
 
Asyncritus said -

You still haven't even touched the points made by Psalm 2 and Psalm 89. When are you going to do so? Quoting Heb 1 doesn't help you at all. It merely establishes that Jesus was His Son.

Hebrews 1 address the subject and the scriptures you have listed, together with the specific language used.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:5-10

Hebrews 1 deals with the exact language you have chosen to discuss.

I have responded with the answer to your question in my previous post, yet you chose to ignore it.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:6

Here is what this verse teaches us concerning your question -

God's Firstborn was brought into the world. He was the Firstborn and then was brought into the world as God's Firstborn.

God's Firstborn became flesh. God was manifested in the flesh. The Word became flesh.

God's Firstborn was in fact God and was brought into this world.

God's Firstborn was to be worshiped.

God's Firstborn is called God - But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

God's Firstborn who was brought into this world, laid the foundation of the earth as God, and created the heavens and the earth - "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.vs 10


Read for yourself the very specific language from the scripture in the Old Testament you asked me to address here in Hebrews 1.

As to the day; He created the heavens and the earth which established the days months and years...


Jesus is YHWH, The Lord God, the creator of the heavens and the earth.

That is my confession.

Jesus Christ is Lord!


JLB
 
You still have not answered the question JLB, and you know full well that you haven't.

Which was:

If

2 Sam 7 says I WILL BE His Father, and He WILL BE my son

Then that is future to the time of writing. Do you agree, or not?

Ps 2 says clearly: THIS DAY have I begotten thee. WHICH DAY was that referring to?

Ps 89.23 says: I WILL MAKE Him my firstborn. That clearly implies that at the time the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn.

Therefore, 'when He bringeth the firstborn into the world' MUST REFER TO a time YET FUTURE to the time when the Psalm was written!

Do you agree to this point?

If you do, can you see that this is fatal to the pre-existence idea?
 
You still have not answered the question JLB, and you know full well that you haven't.

Which was:

If

2 Sam 7 says I WILL BE His Father, and He WILL BE my son

Then that is future to the time of writing. Do you agree, or not?

Ps 2 says clearly: THIS DAY have I begotten thee. WHICH DAY was that referring to?

Ps 89.23 says: I WILL MAKE Him my firstborn. That clearly implies that at the time the Psalm was written, Jesus WAS NOT God's firstborn.

Therefore, 'when He bringeth the firstborn into the world' MUST REFER TO a time YET FUTURE to the time when the Psalm was written!

Do you agree to this point?

If you do, can you see that this is fatal to the pre-existence idea?
He has just shown that your understanding of those passages is incorrect, yet you completely ignore that and still demand an answer. And that is what you do, what you have done through the entire thread--ignoring answers and those scriptural arguments which prove you wrong, all the while demanding answers to your arguments based on out of context Scripture. You always put Scripture against itself which is why your theology is so full of error.

Hebrews 1 proves your understanding of 2 Samuel 7 and Psalm 45 is in error, yet you ignore that and continue to use them to make a bad argument. It makes it impossible to have any sort of rational discussion on the matter.
 
This is substantially correct, Randy.

I fail to understand how people cannot see that the HS is the power of God, and which He (the Father) personalises in the writings of scripture.

There are not 3 PERSONS being spoken of: There is One God (the Father), and Jesus Christ (His Son). It would indeed be strange if the HS is a third person, descending on Jesus at the Jordan, and splitting 'himself' into 120 pieces on the day of Pentecost!

That God does the influencing of our minds cannot be doubted: He did so very many times in the Acts, allowing the disciples and converts to speak in tongues and do the other recorded and unrecorded miracles.

This is how the Acts puts the matter:

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So God had promised to give the Holy Spirit to Jesus, which He did "without measure" in John's record:

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

I find this impossible to understand if the spirit is a PERSON.

However, having given the spirit to Jesus, Jesus sent forth that power of God upon His disciples, and the onlookers both saw and heard its effects.

Incidentally, what are these passages all about?

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

How many Holy Spirits did you say there were?

Also do persons get split into portions?
Moses was wore out and needed help. God thought that was good (appointing others to help) but wasn't giving out more of His Spirit. God stated He would take from the portion He gave to Moses which the following verse states.

Numbers 11:25

Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him (Moses), and took some of the spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders; and when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do so again.


Still its beyond me how you don't see Jesus "was" before the world began. (smile)

Randy
 
I am going to make a post here even though my intent is not to join the debate. Of course I am not making promises here.

What I want to say is that the doctrine of the trinity is one of the most amazing things to ponder about God. It makes God so unlike us, so distant and yet so intimate, so wonderfully far above us and yet with us. The doctrine of the trinity means there is non like him in all the earth. People try to illustrate the doctrine of the trinity and it always falls sort because there is none like our God. While this makes the doctrine of the trinity majestic and other worldly, it also makes the doctrine difficult. The doctrine is so difficult, that the detractors of the doctrine regularly misrepresent the doctrine. The most common argument is to make the doctrine of the trinity into a doctrine which is about 3 Gods. Of course that is not what trinitarians believe. We always have been monotheistic, and of course are still monotheistic, and always will believe in one God. Monotheism is something easy to understand because we are mono-person beings. Oddly enough, those who deny the eternity of Christ are more polytheistic then trinitarians. If Christ is a lesser God, then there are more than one God and pseudo-Christianity becomes a polytheistic religion by having degrees of deity.

The key issue to me seems to be the eternity of Christ. If he is eternal, then the doctrine of the trinity stands. If Jesus is not eternal, then we must explain who Jesus was. He ends up being a lesser God or some created being. For Jesus to be a lesser God creates all sorts of difficulties. Is he really then worthy of worship?

The Nicean creed was genius in its understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine. One of the key clauses was (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use)
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
Christ was not a created being. He is eternal, just as the Father. There never was a time that the Father came into being. There never was a time when the Father was not generating the Son. Christ is eternally begotten.
While this is a very biblical doctrine, it is not easy to grasp. It stretches the mind to think in terms of eternity. This is the distant, wonderfully far above us aspect of the existence of God I referred to above.

Of course this affects my view of the glory of God. If God created a 2ndary being to accomplish my salvation, then salvation itself seems less glorious. If God directly accomplished my salvation, then I marvel at his love and glory in that he himself saved me, not some 2ndary created being.

All this, does not make the concept of 3 persons easy to understand. How can the Father have a will, and yet the Son has a will, and yet they are one being. Christ himself said of his earthly life, "not my will, but they will be done." The will is an aspect of the personhood of the Father and Christ. They are different persons. Yet the scripture is clear that there is only one God (Deuternonmy 6:4). Thus the doctrine that the one God is one in being, one in essence, but three persons.

While people have their own favorite passages to defend the doctrine of the trinity, mine is in Colossians 2
9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
Christ was not a lesser God who was created by the father (eternally generated... yes, but not created-- see the nicean creed). Christ, in his attributes was complete in his fullness of all divine attributes. There is nothing that the Father did, that Christ could not do. While Christ did not give up one divine attribute, he did "humble himself" and took upon himself flesh, and became obedient, even to his death on the cross. He made choices not according to his own will, but according to the will of the Father. This does not mean Christ did not have his own will, or his own emotions, or his own thinking, or his own personhood. He had all those things, but gave up use of his divine power, and at times also his own will. Christ did this to become fully human. We give up our will and accept the Fathers will to be like Christ.

While the Son of God is eternal, there is a sense in which he came into being and was created. When Christ took upon himself human form, he left his glory above. He was generated by the Holy Spirit in the virgin womb of his human mother Mary. This is totally fascinating. How can a person of the Godhead become man? How can omnipotency become impotent? To illustrate, let me speak of his omnipresence. In the OT, when it says God came down to Sinai, that is a condescension to our human frailty. God, being omnipresent, did not go somewhere that he already was. God cannot "come down to Sinai" because he is already there. The scripture puts it this way for our benefit. But now think of Christ.... Having the "fullness of the Godhead bodily" Christ was omnipresent. Yet while he existed in Galilee and in Judea at the same time, being omnipresent, he also walked from Galilee to Judea in bodily form. Christ was both fully God and fully man. The condescension from divine attributes to human attributes totally amazes me, and stretches my mind. How could this be!!! Yet Christ did this... he was omnipresent, and yet found in bodily form and he did this to save me.

Take away the doctrine of the trinity, and you have something less than God. Christ would not be omnipresent, he would not be eternal, he would simply not be glorious. Take away the doctrine of the trinity and you have God's love being insufficient to save me himself. He created someone else who provides a lesser salvation, a salvation not so glorious.

I could ramble on and on about the glories of our God and the doctrine of the trinity, but suffice it to say, I do not worship a lesser God, a created being, but I worship the one true glorious God. To God be the Glory.
 
He has just shown that your understanding of those passages is incorrect, yet you completely ignore that and still demand an answer. And that is what you do, what you have done through the entire thread--ignoring answers and those scriptural arguments which prove you wrong, all the while demanding answers to your arguments based on out of context Scripture. You always put Scripture against itself which is why your theology is so full of error.

Hebrews 1 proves your understanding of 2 Samuel 7 and Psalm 45 is in error, yet you ignore that and continue to use them to make a bad argument. It makes it impossible to have any sort of rational discussion on the matter.

Free

Perhaps you can help here.

There are 3 questions facing you and JLB, none of which has yet been answered.

Referring to Hebrews 1 is a serious mistake, on which I could expand, but will not do so until I get 3 answers to my 3 questions.

The lack of rationality is entirely on your side. If it isn't then please answer those 3 very rational questions with 3 very rational answers.

The rational questions:

1 Do you agree that at the time 2 Sam 7 was written, Jesus was not yet God's son? Hence "I WILL BE His Father..."

2 Do you agree that at the time Psalm 2 was written, Jesus was NOT YET BEGOTTEN, and would not be till Mary gave birth to Him, or the day of Resurrection?
"THIS DAY have I begotten thee". Which Day?

3 Do you agree that at the time Psalm 89 was written, Jesus was NOT YET God's Firstborn?

"I WILL MAKE Him my firstborn...."

Those seem like very rational and logical questions to me, and probably to the fair-minded readers.

They deserve rational and logical answers, which I have been asking for now for the longest time. How about 3 sensible answers?
 
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We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,

And you talk about rationality Free? How about this?
All this, does not make the concept of 3 persons easy to understand. How can the Father have a will, and yet the Son has a will, and yet they are one being. Christ himself said of his earthly life, "not my will, but they will be done." The will is an aspect of the personhood of the Father and Christ. They are different persons. Yet the scripture is clear that there is only one God (Deuternonmy 6:4). Thus the doctrine that the one God is one in being, one in essence, but three persons.
 
Free

Perhaps you can help here.

There are 3 questions facing you and JLB, none of which has yet been answered.

Referring to Hebrews 1 is a serious mistake, on which I could expand, but will not do so until I get 3 answers to my 3 questions.

The lack of rationality is entirely on your side. If it isn't then please answer those 3 very rational questions with 3 very rational answers.

The rational questions:

1 Do you agree that at the time 2 Sam 7 was written, Jesus was not yet God's son? Hence "I WILL BE His Father..."

2 Do you agree that at the time Psalm 2 was written, Jesus was NOT YET BEGOTTEN, and would not be till Mary gave birth to Him, or the day of Resurrection?
"THIS DAY have I begotten thee". Which Day?

3 Do you agree that at the time Psalm 89 was written, Jesus was NOT YET God's Firstborn?

"I WILL MAKE Him my firstborn...."

Those seem like very rational and logical questions to me, and probably to the fair-minded readers.

They deserve rational and logical answers, which I have been asking for now for the longest time. How about 3 sensible answers?
Referring to Heb 1 is a mistake!? Are you serious? That totally undermines Scripture. One of the basic rules for biblical interpretation is to let the NT interpret the OT. And in this case it is even more apparent why it needs to be so--we have those very passages you are using, being spoken of of Jesus, in a context which you simply cannot ignore. Your willingness to continually reject what the NT in favor of a few obscure passages--which I can all but guarantee you wouldn't have been arguing to if it wasn't for Heb 1--is one of the reasons why your understanding is so erroneous.

You continually pit Scripture against Scripture, choosing certain meanings over other clearer meanings, without any biblical basis for doing so whatsoever.

Heb 1:1-3, 1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,"Let all God's angels worship him." 7 Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire." 8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions." 10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." 13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (ESV)

You'll notice that this is in agreement with John 1:1-3, John 8:58, 1 Cor 8:6, and Col 1:16-17, among others. Your argument is in error because you choose to ignore what the NT makes clear--that the Son has always existed. If you want to continue to argue to those passages, you contradict the NT teaching about Jesus and make salvation void.
 
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
And you talk about rationality Free? How about this?
What about it? That's what the Bible clearly teaches.

You even argued at one point that Jesus is the Son of Man because he was born of Mary, and is therefore human. Then when I pointed out that to be consistent you must then believe that "Son of God" means that he is of God in nature, you ignored it.

Of course, it is correct that the term "Son of God" means that Jesus is God in nature. You're just inconsistent, I'm not.
 
Free

Perhaps you can help here.

There are 3 questions facing you and JLB, none of which has yet been answered.

Referring to Hebrews 1 is a serious mistake, on which I could expand, but will not do so until I get 3 answers to my 3 questions.

The lack of rationality is entirely on your side. If it isn't then please answer those 3 very rational questions with 3 very rational answers.

The rational questions:

1 Do you agree that at the time 2 Sam 7 was written, Jesus was not yet God's son? Hence "I WILL BE His Father..."

2 Do you agree that at the time Psalm 2 was written, Jesus was NOT YET BEGOTTEN, and would not be till Mary gave birth to Him, or the day of Resurrection?
"THIS DAY have I begotten thee". Which Day?

3 Do you agree that at the time Psalm 89 was written, Jesus was NOT YET God's Firstborn?

"I WILL MAKE Him my firstborn...."

Those seem like very rational and logical questions to me, and probably to the fair-minded readers.

They deserve rational and logical answers, which I have been asking for now for the longest time. How about 3 sensible answers?

1) I will agree with you that Solomon had not been born yet. This is not a prophesy about Jesus. Why do I say this?
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
Surely God was not suggesting the Jesus would ever sin. Solomon did and was chastened.

2&3) Both JLB and Free have made this quite clear. But I will try one time, as well.
Psalms 2 and 89 of coarse were both written before He was BORN (BEGOTTEN).
God's firstborn or first begotten, actually only begotten.
I take this very literally to be 'begotten' as the word is used in the Hebrew.
H3205
yâlad
yaw-lad'
A primitive root; to bear young; causatively to beget; medically to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage: - bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

Which day, you ask.
On the day that God ordained that He would be born in the flesh. From the foundation of the world God ordained (determined) it. The time was God's time then it was consummated.
Do you believe He was born of a virgin?
 
1 Do you agree that at the time 2 Sam 7 was written, Jesus was not yet God's son? Hence "I WILL BE His Father..."

When I read this verse I think the reason it says "I will be his father" is because it is referring to when the father son relationship as we know it begins. Not that Jesus didn't exist as the son before, but these words were used for the purpose of showing how God's plan for his son while on earth will be carried out.
 
1 Do you agree that at the time 2 Sam 7 was written, Jesus was not yet God's son? Hence "I WILL BE His Father..."

When I read this verse I think the reason it says "I will be his father" is because it is referring to when the father son relationship as we know it begins. Not that Jesus didn't exist as the son before, but these words were used for the purpose of showing how God's plan for his son while on earth will be carried out.
Agreed. It could very well signify a change in the Father-Son relationship regarding the plan of salvation.


Asyncritus,

There are reasonable explanations but one is not that he didn't exist until those words were spoken. That simply is not an option as it would have to ignore many passages in Scripture, some of which I've given.
 
This is substantially correct, Randy.

I fail to understand how people cannot see that the HS is the power of God, and which He (the Father) personalises in the writings of scripture.

There are not 3 PERSONS being spoken of: There is One God (the Father), and Jesus Christ (His Son). It would indeed be strange if the HS is a third person, descending on Jesus at the Jordan, and splitting 'himself' into 120 pieces on the day of Pentecost!

That God does the influencing of our minds cannot be doubted: He did so very many times in the Acts, allowing the disciples and converts to speak in tongues and do the other recorded and unrecorded miracles.

This is how the Acts puts the matter:

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So God had promised to give the Holy Spirit to Jesus, which He did "without measure" in John's record:

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

I find this impossible to understand if the spirit is a PERSON.

However, having given the spirit to Jesus, Jesus sent forth that power of God upon His disciples, and the onlookers both saw and heard its effects.

Incidentally, what are these passages all about?

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

How many Holy Spirits did you say there were?

Now this is interesting. I will have to ponder this deeply. Even in the Babylon scripture that I posted, it is clear that there is a conversation going on within the Godhead that is definitely more than a single personality, so I took it as proof of a trinity. A closer examination reveals that it doesn't make clear that there is actually 3, just more than 1 for sure. So what you say could indeed fit without contradiction.

:thinking(uh-oh :lol)
 
1 Do you agree that at the time 2 Sam 7 was written, Jesus was not yet God's son? Hence "I WILL BE His Father..."

When I read this verse I think the reason it says "I will be his father" is because it is referring to when the father son relationship as we know it begins. Not that Jesus didn't exist as the son before, but these words were used for the purpose of showing how God's plan for his son while on earth will be carried out.

1Ch 28:5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
1Ch 28:6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
1Ch 28:7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
 
Now this is interesting. I will have to ponder this deeply. Even in the Babylon scripture that I posted, it is clear that there is a conversation going on within the Godhead that is definitely more than a single personality, so I took it as proof of a trinity. A closer examination reveals that it doesn't make clear that there is actually 3, just more than 1 for sure. So what you say could indeed fit without contradiction.

:thinking(uh-oh :lol)

Well Jesus has his own will and mind and submitted to the Father Will. God is Spirit. So if the one on the throne is the Father and the Father sends His Spirit into the world is that Spirit a 3rd person distinct from the Father? It seems to me the Spirit searches the deep thoughts of God or mind of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit does bear witness but its stated "Those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son" (all will be taught by God).

Its not like the HS is going to state you know the Son and the Father but let me introduce myself (smile) -

So if the Hs is a distinct person from the Father (not what I read) I don't know Him as the Spirit conveys the Will and Mind of Jesus and the Father.

Randy
 
Asyncritus #662
I fail to understand how people cannot see that the HS is the power of God, and which He (the Father) personalises in the writings of scripture.

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. (Acts 8:29 )

While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. (Ac 10:19 )

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things (Acts 15:28)

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever (John 14:16)

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)

I fail to understand how anyone can think the Holy Spirit is just a force seeing as he talks like a person, intercedes like a person, is grieved like a person, and is the "another" comforter, replacing a person.

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
I find this impossible to understand if the spirit is a PERSON.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. (Psalms 139:7-10)

How is it possible for God to be everywhere at once?

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)

Could it have something to do with God being Spirit? Isn't the Holy Spirit a Spirit?

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Re 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Re 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

How many Holy Spirits did you say there were?

In Christianity, the seven Spirits of God are interpreted as being anything except the seven Spirits of God. No wonder Revelation is so hard for them to understand. It's regarded as a kind of writing where nothing is what it seems on the surface. And what it seems is different for every reader. Where does it say seven "Holy" Spirits in these verses? Where in these verses does it say seven-"fold" Spirit, as some Christians interpret it? The question should be how many Spirits are there. There are seven mentioned clearly in the verses you provided. These references may refer to the Holy Spirit: Revelations 1:10, several times in chapters 2-3, 14:13, 17:3, 21:10 & 17. Hard to tell since the words "Holy Spirit" are only specifically found together four times in the New Testament. The mentions of the Spirit could be one Spirit or many Spirits, and can be interpreted as anything, common sense notwithstanding. The plain reading of the text says to me that there are at least eight Spirits mentioned in Revelation. So what do you have now? Eight forces of God altogether?
 
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mondar #668

God is glorious and majestic and personal without ever having to think about the Trinity. The Old Testament believers thought it for longer than the Christians. And how can saying that Trinitarians believe in three persons in one God be a misrepresentation? Do they believe something else? But you're right. Anyone who thinks the Trinity is about three Gods doesn't deserve the space used to say it. Personally I don't see anything difficult about the Trinity. Just happens I question its veracity. And unless you think that humans partaking of the Divine nature makes them God, then it's hard to see why you would think that just because Jesus is divine, it makes him either another God or another person of God. And why would you want to worship the son when he specifically tells you in the Gospels to worship the Father. All you are seeing are Christians interpreting the Bible to mean something other than what it says and interpreting it differently from one another. The controversy over the Marian connection to Trinitarianism separates most of Christianity from Protestantism.

Christians are good at pointing fingers and saying that if you don't agree with our interpretation, then you can't be a true believer and you have no part with us. That's not discrimination for the truth. That's discrimination for (one's own) and against (someone else's) interpretations.

Yes. "The Nicaean creed was genius in its understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine." How could it be otherwise? It was written by a group of Trinitarians. Doesn't make it true. I've read science fiction stories that are just as "genius". More so in fact seeing as there are other Trinitarian gods and goddesses long before Christians were taking the time to be geniuses about the Trinity.

The son is not eternal. He was generated at some point in eternity. Something generated can't possibly be as old as that which generated it. Otherwise it was never generated. It just always existed. Only the Father is without beginning. Both the generated son and the Spirit that proceeds from the father have a beginning. But there is nothing to say that either are created beings as are man and that which inhabits the earth. Do you know of a verse that specifically says the angels are created beings? Maybe there's one that I don't know about.

Why would you think that just because God accomplishes something through a lesser being, it then becomes less glorious? God is still the source no matter who the instrument of his purpose may be.

How can the father and the son each have a will and yet be one being? Well, if they were human, they would be diagnosed with multiple personality disorder. How that would work with God who is spirit? Haven't a clue. But some "geniuses" have figured out one solution.

4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments.
5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:4-12)

I don't see why this wouldn't be true whether one believed that the Son is God or not.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:31-35)

Where in that account does it say that "He was generated by the Holy Spirit in the virgin womb of his human mother Mary"? Wait, didn't you just say he was "eternally generated"?

And where is there any evidence that the son was omnipresent between birth and resurrection? Or omniscient for that matter?

Take away the doctrine of the trinity, and you have something less than God. Christ would not be omnipresent, he would not be eternal, he would simply not be glorious. Take away the doctrine of the trinity and you have God's love being insufficient to save me himself. He created someone else who provides a lesser salvation, a salvation not so glorious.

Yet Jesus says in John chap. 17 that he had glory before he came here. Whether or not one believes he is eternal.

I could ramble on and on about the glories of our God and the doctrine of the trinity, but suffice it to say, I do not worship a lesser God, a created being, but I worship the one true glorious God. To God be the Glory

Jesus himself didn't tell anyone to worship him. On the contrary, he said to worship the father. So it would be to anyone's best interests to heed the one who knows what he's talking about.

One good ramble deserves another.
 
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What about it? That's what the Bible clearly teaches.

You even argued at one point that Jesus is the Son of Man because he was born of Mary, and is therefore human. Then when I pointed out that to be consistent you must then believe that "Son of God" means that he is of God in nature, you ignored it.

Of course, it is correct that the term "Son of God" means that Jesus is God in nature. You're just inconsistent, I'm not.

When I pointed out to you that God cannot sin, or be tempted with evil, but Christ could, and certainly was, you ignored that. Why? Because you have no answer.

He either could sin, or couldn't.

If He couldn't sin, then it was all a big joke.

But of course, He could sin, which is an entire denial of any trinitarianism.

'Son of God' does not mean that He is 'God in nature' (and that is a totally non-scriptural description), far less that He is God, full stop.

We are the 'sons of God' - are we 'God in nature' too? Of course not - so why make the mistake and attributing that to Jesus?

He took part of the nature of man - Hebrews says so very clearly and extremely emphatically, but doubtless you've missed or ignored that too:

2.14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [Notice the mounting, cumulative, powerful emphasis which cannot be denied? Where is this 'God in nature' business in that passage? Nowhere to be seen]

Here's the Amplified - that bunch of trinitarians - agreeing with me :

15 For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in every respect as we are, yet without sinning.

KJV

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Now James weighs in:

13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God CANNOT sin, Free.
God CANNOT SIN!
God is INCAPABLE OF SINNING.

What more do you want Him to say? What more can I say?

Jesus COULD SIN.
Jesus WAS IN EVERY WAY tempted to SIN,like as we are!
Jesus could have done His own will and WALKED OFF THAT CROSS.
Jesus said 'NOT MY WILL BUT THINE BE DONE'

You cannot deny these things, and every one of them is entirely contrary to trinitarian doctrine, and fundamental to any understanding of the immensity of the sacrifice of Christ. If He couldn't sin, because He was God, then His conquest of sin was no contest, and no conquest took place.


But on the other hand, and this is the reality of it, He COULD HAVE SINNED, and despite every temptation to do evil that came to Him, He OVERCAME them all, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross: which, be it clearly noted, He could have refused to do (Not my will, but thine be done).

THE FATAL CONSEQUENCE

What none of you seems to realise is that if Jesus was God, and Jesus could sin, then God the Father could sin too. That is the logical corollary of this doctrine.

How can you even think it?

I'm sure you haven't thought this through, but if you have, and conclude that the Father could sin, then the whole universe will collapse: and should have done so a long time ago.

It hasn't - therefore the axiomatic statement above is entirely correct. God CANNOT SIN, but JESUS COULD. In fact, Paul says concerning the RISEN CHRIST, exalted to God's right hand,

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Note, not 'the God Christ Jesus'. If He isn't God NOW, then what becomes of your teaching? When is He going to be God?

I'll leave that there for you to chew on for a while, but in the meantime, I return to the 3 fatal questions.

1 Was God Jesus' Father at the time 2 Sam 7 was written?

2 Was Jesus God's firstborn at the time Ps 89 was written?

3 On which Day (Ps 2) did Jesus become God's Son?
 
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