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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Proof of Trinity
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
R
Rick W
Guest
"New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”
That's not what it says.
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
“You are God. Your throne will last for ever and ever.
Your kingdom will be ruled by what is right.
NSB
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72622
Daniel Mace's version
1729-----------The New Testament in Greek and English (Unitarian tendencies) by Daniel Mace
Twentieth Century New Testament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_New_Testament
So, what about other versions?
Check this out.
http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 1:8
http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Hebrews 1:8
Teddy, here is how the New International Readers Version reads.
Of the Son He says - You are God!
8 But here is what he says about the Son. "You are God. Your throne will last for ever and ever. Your kingdom will be ruled by what is right. Hebrews 1:8 New International Readers Version
JLB
Of the Son He says - You are God!
8 But here is what he says about the Son. "You are God. Your throne will last for ever and ever. Your kingdom will be ruled by what is right. Hebrews 1:8 New International Readers Version
JLB
R
Rick W
Guest
Terms of Service said:
Example of bibles the ToS refers to besides The New World Translation:
Twentieth Century New Testament
"...the translators were not professional scholars but a varied cross section of society -- ministers, housewives, school teachers, railroad workers, and businessmen."
Edward
2024 Supporter
Genesis 11:5-7
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech./(KJV)
Doesn't this scripture make it clear that there is more than one being (personality) as our God? Who is God talking to here? Let "us" go down and there confound their language...this is the trinity talking amongst themselves. There is no, and God said to Moses or Isaiah or anything like that. To me, here it is in black and white, proof there is a trinity. This is a simple question brothers and sisters.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech./(KJV)
Doesn't this scripture make it clear that there is more than one being (personality) as our God? Who is God talking to here? Let "us" go down and there confound their language...this is the trinity talking amongst themselves. There is no, and God said to Moses or Isaiah or anything like that. To me, here it is in black and white, proof there is a trinity. This is a simple question brothers and sisters.
A
Asyncritus
Guest
I have highlighted the parts you need to address if this is really referring to Solomon. Please comment on those in your reply.
Come JLB. You know full well that Solomon was NEVER God's firstborn. If you don't, you really should.
So a better effort is needed - but at least you tried.
Now while you're at it, do comment on Ps 2, and identify who the Son really is, which day is being spoken of, and what effect that combination of facts has on your idea the Jesus was there from before creation.
You really should. I agree.
Async
You said 2 Samuel 7-
This is from 2 Samuel 7 -
12 "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever." ' " 17 According to all these words and according to all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David. 2 Samuel 7:12-17
I will be his Father - This is a reference to Solomon.
Now He said to me, 'It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts; for I have chosen him to be My son, and I will be his Father. 1 Chronicles 28:6
But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
Jesus Christ is of the lineage of David, and through Him, the throne of David will be established forever.
JLB
I believe the HS is the Fathers Spirit - The One true God. What you show only states the HS Is because the Father is and thats His Spirit. Not that the HS is a separate distinct person. God wills the HS acts. The HS is God's being. (Spirit)
Jesus - The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me....
Is that not the HS?
The Father - I will place my Spirit upon Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations....
Is that not the HS?
When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you -Matthew 10:20
Is that not the HS?
The HS does bear witness as in those that listen to the Father and learn from Him Go to the Son. (All shall be taught by God)
Acts 2
The Father promise
‘In the last days it will be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy
Acts 2
This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at[g] the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says
I don't deny the HS.
Now Jesus, The firstborn of all creation, has His own spirit as the son - "Father into your hands I commit MY SPIRIT"
Randy
A
Asyncritus
Guest
You still have not answered the questions, JLB.
I am surprised that you can possibly insist that Solomon was the fulfilment of what is so obviously a great Messianic prophecy.
If he is, then how do you account for these words which you have ignored again:
and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever." ' "
Was Solomon's throne established forever? If so, where is it now, and who is sitting on it?
You have obviously missed Gabriel's words to Mary, so here's a reminder:
32 He (Jesus, not Solomon) shall be great,
and shall be called the Son of the Highest: (because that is exactly what He is)
and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (as promised in 2 Sam 7)
33 And he (Jesus, not Solomon) shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Solomon's kingdom came to an end, and has never been re-instated, but will soon be:
Ezek 21, 26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
'I will be His Father' cannot be literally fulfilled in Solomon : because David was Solomon's father and Bathsheba his mother.
So your problem stands.
I WILL BE his Father, was future to 2 Sam 7. So Jesus was not God's Son AT THE TIME OF WRITING 2 Sam 7. It was a prophecy, to be gloriously fulfilled in Christ, WHO WAS NOT GOD'S SON YET.
Therefore, AT THE TIME OF WRITING, Jesus was not yet God's Son, contrary to all your protestations.
Randy, if you're reading this, you must see that you also have the same problem as JLB and the others.
Now your other 2 problems also still remain.
Ps 89.23 I WILL MAKE him my firstborn
This is clearly also future to the time of the writing of the Psalm.
Given that, Jesus did not pre-exist from before Gen 1. But I wait to hear your explanation of this point, which is a quite major one, in my opinion.
And Psalm 2: Thou art my son THIS DAY have I begotten thee.
Which Day? The day the Psalm was written, or the Day of Resurrection as Paul says in Rom 1. 4?
In either case, it is very clear that Jesus was not the Son AT THE TIME OF WRITING.
So what is your understanding of this point too?
chessman
Member
I think several Scriptures do show the HS is a distinct person from The Father. I especially think the Roman's 8 and John 16 passages clearly teach-reveal a distinct person who is the Holy Spirit:
Take John 16:
7 But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you;
Here, The Advocate is revealed as a separate 'person' from The Son and The Father, clearly. Notice Jesus just got through saying He was going back to The One who sent Him (The Father), yet The Advocate was coming to them.
It simply takesTwo persons for that to be true.
So The Advocate cannot be The Father nor leave The Father spiritless in heaven when He came to Earth. That would make no sense of Jesus' message here. And frankly, I yield to His teaching on this subject. He knows more about God's attributes than you or I.
Granted, you are saying that The Holy Spirit is The Father's Spirit. Fine. But notice how on your view, that would leave The Father spiritless in Heaven.
The Son continues:
but if I go, I will send him [The Advocate] to you
Again, If Jesus is calling the The Holy Spirit (The Advocate) a 'him', I simply follow suit and accept it. And notice The Father is not the 'him' that is being sent. Jesus is returning to The Father!
Jesus continues:
8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin
Jesus does not mean The Father is coming. He means The Holy Spirit is coming. Yet to The Father is where The Son is going.
And Paul, indwelt with the Holy Spirit says:
11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.
Paul speaks of The One in addition to The Spirit of The One as two separate persons.
Paul taught The Father was the one who raised Jesus and knew Jesus went back to be with The Father. He opens his epistles with:
Gal
[ Greeting ] Paul, an apostle not from men nor by men but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead,
Or:
2 Thess:Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yet he says the Holy Spirit lives in the saved. If they had The Father's spirit living in them already (because you say there is no such thing as a distinction in person between The Father and The Holy Spirit), why issue a greeting to them from The Father?
Paul says in Rom 5:5:
the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
again Paul clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is in the saved, yet he greets them with:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
A distinct person is someone who has their own mind, will and spirit - to me.
Jesus as the Son meets that criteria. The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord doesn't as a separate distinct person from God. That is Gods Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears. Searches the deep thoughts of God and always carries out the Will of the mind of the Spirit. (Father) and (Son) as Jesus was given all authority and the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The miracles that Jesus performed were by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in us in is a bridge between the mind and will of Jesus - sent in His name. Since the Spirit is the Fathers both the Father and the Son make their home with one born of God. Doesn't state a 3rd person in us.
You don't pray to the HS. In fact the HS (helps us) prays for us in accordance to the will of the mind of God.
God wills His Spirit acts.
37 The hand of the Lord came upon me, and he brought me out by the spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me all around them; there were very many lying in the valley, and they were very dry. 3 He said to me, “Mortal, can these bones live?” I answered, “O Lord God, you know.” 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them: O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: I will cause breath[a] to enter you, and you shall live. 6 I will lay sinews on you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath[b] in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”
7 So I prophesied as I had been commanded; and as I prophesied, suddenly there was a noise, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 I looked, and there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, mortal, and say to the breath:[c] Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath,[d] and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.” 10 I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood on their feet, a vast multitude.
Randy
The prophecy does have it's fulfillment in the Messiah, however it is also a reference to Solomon.
As I said, the scripture says -
The Word BECAME flesh... The Word is God and became flesh.
God sent His only begotten Son into the world.
Jesus was God's Son before He came into the world through the womb of Mary.
Jesus was God the Word before He came into the world.
God the Father, sent His Son, The Word whom is God into the world.
God's Son was brought forth into The world, and became flesh.
God was manifested in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16
JLB
I don't have any problem at all.
The prophecy was a reference to both Solomon as well as The Messiah.
Concerning the Messiah, the scripture says -
But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:5-10
The Messiah is God.
God was manifested in the flesh.
The Word was God and became flesh.
JLB
Gregg
Member
Free, Chessman, JLB, and Chopper:
I am leaving these forums and wanted to say that I have been encouraged in reading your posts; certainly regarding content, but also in your demeanor and love for the One who has explained the Father to us. O God's grace and His gift of faith, neither of our warrant or will !
At first I was astonished that a forum gives an aggressive voice to anyone denying, even opposing the LORD Jesus. But I think differently now. The LORD will wash our feet from walking the streets of Sodom and Egypt. And more importantly, perhaps the LORD will wash the hearts and minds of those to whom His word has gone out. He is able, and all things are possible with God.
The LORD bless you, and keep you;
the LORD make His face shine on you, and be gracious to you;
the LORD lift up His countenance on you, and give you peace (Num 6:24-26).
I am leaving these forums and wanted to say that I have been encouraged in reading your posts; certainly regarding content, but also in your demeanor and love for the One who has explained the Father to us. O God's grace and His gift of faith, neither of our warrant or will !
At first I was astonished that a forum gives an aggressive voice to anyone denying, even opposing the LORD Jesus. But I think differently now. The LORD will wash our feet from walking the streets of Sodom and Egypt. And more importantly, perhaps the LORD will wash the hearts and minds of those to whom His word has gone out. He is able, and all things are possible with God.
The LORD bless you, and keep you;
the LORD make His face shine on you, and be gracious to you;
the LORD lift up His countenance on you, and give you peace (Num 6:24-26).
I am sad to see you leave after so short a stay. I wish you all the best and God's blessings in all that you do.
chessman
Member
True. Yet HE used you and your time, your work here to do God-work. Take care.
John 3:19-21
The Message (MSG)
19-21 “This is the crisis we’re in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won’t come near it, fearing a painful exposure. But anyone working and living in truth and reality welcomes God-light so the work can be seen for the God-work it is.”
As far as I know the Father and Son have made their home with me. If God's (the one who promised to pour out His Spirit in the last days) own Spirit has His own name or personality or a mind or a will that is distinct from God the Father then I am not aware of who He is. You act like the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is a 3rd person. What I see is the Father sending HIS Spirit into the world and into the hearts of the children in Jesus's name. (Children-Those that obey Gods command and hold to the testimony of Jesus)
Randy