What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Proof of Trinity

Hi Chopper. Do you think a child's age has anything to do with accountability or is it a child's ability to understand/comprehend? Children's ability to reason, understand, and comprehend vary from one to the next. Mentally challenged children for example may never reach the age of accountability depending on the extent of their challenge. Do you agree?
 
The only behavioral age related response seems to be here.
Numbers 14:27
How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

A doctrine related response seems to be:
I Corinthians 15:27
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

This seems to rely on a personal / individual response.

I am interested in your scriptures (WIP)

Trinity:
Sins against the Father
Forgiveness of sins by Son
Empowerment for service by Holy Spirit

Age seems to be OT / OC related.(family)
Heart mind seems to be NC related.(possibly more individual related - promised in OT).

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Ways to hunt rabbits while on a deer hunt draws a lot of comments.

eddif
 
WIP said:
Hi Chopper. Do you think a child's age has anything to do with accountability or is it a child's ability to understand/comprehend? Children's ability to reason, understand, and comprehend vary from one to the next. Mentally challenged children for example may never reach the age of accountability depending on the extent of their challenge. Do you agree?
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with that statement Dear Brother WIP. We have to remember that IMO the Scripture in Romans 5 is referring to the Law that Moses handed down at Mt. Sinai. A child has to understand and as you say, has to comprehend the 10 Commandments, not just what's "right & wrong" or the "golden rule" as many folk believe. That puts the age of accountability (as we put it) much higher I would think.

Mentally challenged children and adults are in a separate group. Many of them are blessed with little comprehension of the 10 Commandments, and therefore enter Heavens Glorious temporary home until God creates our permanent eternal new Heaven and earth. Praise our Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are His ways.

I just thought, all saints that die now go to the temporary glorious home, not just the challenged.
 
Chopper said:
I absolutely agree with that statement Dear Brother WIP. We have to remember that IMO the Scripture in Romans 5 is referring to the Law that Moses handed down at Mt. Sinai. A child has to understand and as you say, has to comprehend the 10 Commandments, not just what's "right & wrong" or the "golden rule" as many folk believe. That puts the age of accountability (as we put it) much higher I would think.

Mentally challenged children and adults are in a separate group. Many of them are blessed with little comprehension of the 10 Commandments, and therefore enter Heavens Glorious temporary home until God creates our permanent eternal new Heaven and earth. Praise our Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are His ways.

I just thought, all saints that die now go to the temporary glorious home, not just the challenged.
Click to expand...
AMEN and I'll say it again, Amen!
 
th1b.taylor said:
AMEN and I'll say it again, Amen!
Click to expand...
Thank you Bill for your Amen. Boy O Boy, are you and I challenged, or what?? :hysterical Physically we're a wreck! I was just thinking, we're on some very strong opiate medications. You may be on some stronger than my morphine, I can't remember. Anyway, I would imagine that our Lord extends to you and me, and others who are in constant pain, some special Grace because I know that when the pain is in the elevated numbers, I can't think straight sometimes. I can make wrong decisions that when I'm not in such pain, I wouldn't make. What do you think?

I don't think that "special Grace" is an appropriate term, I don't think that the Lord looks the other way when He would disapprove of my reaction to the pain, you know? I really don't know what I'm trying to say. :grumpy
 
Chopper said:
Thank you Bill for your Amen. Boy O Boy, are you and I challenged, or what?? :hysterical Physically we're a wreck! I was just thinking, we're on some very strong opiate medications. You may be on some stronger than my morphine, I can't remember. Anyway, I would imagine that our Lord extends to you and me, and others who are in constant pain, some special Grace because I know that when the pain is in the elevated numbers, I can't think straight sometimes. I can make wrong decisions that when I'm not in such pain, I wouldn't make. What do you think?

I don't think that "special Grace" is an appropriate term, I don't think that the Lord looks the other way when He would disapprove of my reaction to the pain, you know? I really don't know what I'm trying to say. :grumpy
Click to expand...
No, I agree with your assessment and it for that reason that I no longer post much of anywhere but here. The Mods here are not afraid to File 13 one of my Pain Rants without questioning me first. I see that, also, as, just, regular grace (if such can even be said of God's Grace.) When I did not need these stupid drugs for pain, Opium made me high as a kite and I am, forever amazed that without them, now, I am stupid.

I pray that the youngsters never know what you, I and many Veterans and other injured people have come to accept as our new normal. My largest problem is not turning this fool machine off and just sleeping the pain off from time to time. My biggest disappointment is the failure of people to accept the Will of God over the use of the Tools God holds in His hands.

But they pray amiss because they want God to cure me and I want no part of it. I want to go Home, in body or in spirit, I want to go Home. I will not intentionally sin one more sin and flip the switch, just, to go Home because that is God's area of expertise and I'm certain, when He's done, I'll go, want to or not.

God bless, brother.
 
Thanks old Buddy. You said it right! I have, on several occasions, when I was on an 8 on the pain scale and 2 hours before I could take another morphine tab, I started to type a response to someone who upset me. I was going to use my post to slap him around a little. Fortunately, the Spirit of the living God took off my boxing gloves. I know just what you are talking about. If I were confined to a wheel chair like you are, I wouldn't last long in a Forum, I'd go nuts on people.
 
Chopper said:
Thanks old Buddy. You said it right! I have, on several occasions, when I was on an 8 on the pain scale and 2 hours before I could take another morphine tab, I started to type a response to someone who upset me. I was going to use my post to slap him around a little. Fortunately, the Spirit of the living God took off my boxing gloves. I know just what you are talking about. If I were confined to a wheel chair like you are, I wouldn't last long in a Forum, I'd go nuts on people.
Click to expand...
I understand, when I reach that point and I am at the VA they think I'm rude and my wife gets upset with them.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Hi Jesse, let's start at the beginning here.
You say the Old Testament clearly presents a God of one person.

Please explain two verses for me.
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man in our image", and
Proverbs 30:4; "What is his name, and the name of his son"?
Click to expand...

The trinity is a theological construct by man. While I do believe it has error NOT found in the NT I do read of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit that they are One and all three would be considered GOD. Man attempted to wrap all that up in the theology of the trinity.

Many claim Jesus is God the differences are usually found in the "How" as the Father is clearly presented as the God and Father of Jesus and the One true God. Only One Apostle explained the "how". "The fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him" John simply stated in the beginning was the word and the word was God and was with God. That statement in context is true. Jesus is the word of the FATHER, (God), and the creation was made through Him and He is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being.

But context is the key to understanding.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies. (He lives by the living Father)
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. The firstborn of every creature. As a Son Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth can been seen as a separate person from the Father it can also be read as the Fathers OWN Spirit. That Spirit does not speak on His own but what He hears. That Spirit searches the deep thoughts of the mind of the Spirit in the same way our own spirit searches or knows our mind. (thoughts). Also the Father simple states "My Spirit" when speaking of the HS while Jesus does not.

Father =>I will place my Spirit upon Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations. (With light comes accountability)
Jesus=>The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me......

The Holy Spirit bears witness, (He speaks what He hears from the mind of the Spirit), as in those who listen and learn from the FATHER go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. That is the FATHERS will. Those that oppose Jesus fight against the FATHERS WILL.

Gods own Spirit would be divine.
All the fullness of God dwells in Jesus which includes all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. In that context He is called God and is seen as Divine though the living in Him (The Father) is the Spirit that is divine. Again as a Son Jesus has His own spirit-Not Divine other wise we have two Gods.

Randy
 
Randy said:
But context is the key to understanding.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies. (He lives by the living Father)
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is. (The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him)
No, He has always been the Son. The firstborn of every creature. As a Son Jesus has His own spirit as in "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"
Click to expand...
Can a woman be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?
 
Free said:
Can a woman be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?
Click to expand...
Can the Father grant the Son to have life in Himself?
yes its written

Jesus=>its the Father living in me doing His work......Paul=>The fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. Jesus then has all the fullness of God indwelling Him. The FATHER. Such fullness includes all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Jesus is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. The creature was made through Him and IN Him christians live. Just as Jesus lives by the living FATHER. His God and our God. His Father and our Father. The Father by whom all things exist and for whom we exist.

I believe ALL that is written of Jesus. The creeds mostly however Jesus had a beginning as Gods Firstborn and I don't read where the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord has a mind and a will apart from the mind of the Spirit as a distinct being should. Its also clear to me that the Son that was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.

Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into YOUR HANDS I commit MY SPIRIT"

Creeds are not the NT. Show me a creed and I will search the scriptures to see if they are true.

Randy
 
Randy said:
Can the Father grant the Son to have life in Himself?
yes its written

Jesus=>its the Father living in me doing His work......Paul=>The fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. Jesus then has all the fullness of God indwelling Him. The FATHER. Such fullness includes all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Jesus is ALL that the Father is. The image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. The creature was made through Him and IN Him christians live. Just as Jesus lives by the living FATHER. His God and our God. His Father and our Father. The Father by whom all things exist and for whom we exist.

I believe ALL that is written of Jesus. The creeds mostly however Jesus had a beginning as Gods Firstborn and I don't read where the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord has a mind and a will apart from the mind of the Spirit as a distinct being should. Its also clear to me that the Son that was, (His Spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.

Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into YOUR HANDS I commit MY SPIRIT"

Creeds are not the NT. Show me a creed and I will search the scriptures to see if they are true.

Randy
Click to expand...
So what is the answer to my question?
 
Genesis 17:16
And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Through the promise Sarah was as pregnant as she would ever be, but she was not pregnant yet in the flesh.

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We have the promises in our mind and we trust at the last trump to have manifestation in the flesh / body.

I think metaphysical speak is what Randy is doing.
The will of the father
The ultimate manifestation of God in the flesh (Jesus)
The Spirit at work to get things completed

Trinity at its best (?)


eddif
 
Chopper said:
I'm confused by what you mean by your question. Please explain?
Click to expand...
Can a woman be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time? Just for fun, what would your answer be?

Or, alternatively, can a man be married and a bachelor at the same time? There is no trick here and all the words are used in there ordinary sense. It really is a simple question with a simple answer but it is to make a point.
 
Last edited:
I think humans are the best proof of the Trinity. We are made in the image of God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons.

We are likewise three in one, body, mind, and spirit, each distinct, but still one.
 
Blake said:
I think humans are the best proof of the Trinity. We are made in the image of God, who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God in Three Persons.

We are likewise three in one, body, mind, and spirit, each distinct, but still one.
Click to expand...

You need some Lutheran satire. :)
 
Randy said:
Ask a question regarding Jesus not reproduction. I have answered the question is Jesus God. You can't accept my answer but that doesn't make it wrong.

Randy
Click to expand...
My questions are perfectly legitimate, but since you don't want to debate nicely, and I suspect it's because you know the contradiction I am alluding to with my questions, I'll answer them for the benefit of everyone else.

The simple answer to my simple questions is, "no"--it is impossible for a woman to be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time, just as a bachelor is, by definition, not married.

So when we look at your post, you claim that Jesus both is God and not God. But that is clearly a contradiction. You even said that "he is ALL the Father is." But if that is the case either he cannot not be God or the Father can also not be God. Contradiction upon contradiction.
 
Free said:
My questions are perfectly legitimate, but since you don't want to debate nicely, and I suspect it's because you know the contradiction I am alluding to with my questions, I'll answer them for the benefit of everyone else.

The simple answer to my simple questions is, "no"--it is impossible for a woman to be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time, just as a bachelor is, by definition, not married.

So when we look at your post, you claim that Jesus both is God and not God. But that is clearly a contradiction. You even said that "he is ALL the Father is." But if that is the case either he cannot not be God or the Father can also not be God. Contradiction upon contradiction.
Click to expand...

Its called context. Did Jesus die? yes and no
Yes, the body on the cross died and as man states Jesus died.
No, Jesus alive by the Spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison. (prior to His bodily resurrection) Jesus lives by the living Father and never dies. Jesus has indestructible life in Himself. (The Father) Jesus=>I live by the living Father.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Since we are asking questions:
Jesus called the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"

If Jesus always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

About the Father it states "
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."


Randy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top