Proof of Trinity

[Asyncritus]

Free,

Here are the points to which, as I see it, you have no refutation to offer.

Co-Equality

The creeds (and I note that you have not mentioned them in your responses) are extremely emphatic on the point of the co-equality of the members of the trinity.

The scriptures on the other hand are even more emphatic that God the Father is Number One, and Jesus is Number Two in the divine hierarchy. I have provided innumerable quotations which state exactly that, only to hear that those passages and concepts do not contradict the trinity!

If they don't, I don't know what will.

Jesus NEVER claims to be God

You have firmly aligned yourself with those wicked Jews who were seeking to destroy Him by totally and deliberately misinterpreting the statement 'Before Abraham was, I am' . I have shown you the refutation of this argument previously, but you will not hear.

Incidentally, even there He does not claim to be God, and ends the discussion by stating that He is the Son of God. Remember? You are saying the Jews were right, and adding that fault to the mistaken support of your doctrine.

You really need to provide some better, clearer, incontrovertible evidence of your claim that Jesus claims to be God. Of course, you can't do so, because there isn't any.

Jesus' History

While here, He was subordinate to God, and said so many times - at least 78 of which are in John's gospel. Remember those?

Right now, sitting at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, He is subordinate to the God, who has elevated Him to His right hand.

When He returns, He will be subordinate to God even unto and at the end.

You can dispute none of these points. If all that is true, and it is, then can I ask you, where is this equality with God? If He was not equal when He was here, is not equal right now, and will not be equal when He returns, then when?

And if equality is non-existent, as it surely is, then if you agree with these points, you have effectively abandoned the doctrine of the trinity as expressed in the creeds.

The Effective Ruin of Christ's Sacrifice

This is the root of your whole problem.

I stated this in the last segment of my previous reply, TO WHICH YOU HAVE UTTERLY FAILED TO REPLY. Here it is again:

God cannot sin, nor be tempted with evil. Those are axiomatic statements.

Therefore, Jesus, if He was God, could not sin, nor be tempted with evil.

That, however, is a nonsensical statement. He WAS TEMPTED IN ALL POINTS LIKE AS WE ARE, YET WITHOUT SIN.

If He wasn't tempted, and wasn't able to sin, then His sacrifice and alleged conquest of sin are meaningless and powerless. That is the irrevocable conclusion to which you are driven by your belief.

Curiously enough, I note the total absence of a response to those points when I raised them above. I can understand your difficulties - because they are completely insuperable.

Irrespective of how desperately you cling to Jn 1.1 etc, you cannot evade the sheer logic of my point:

Jesus COULD have sinned.

Jesus WAS tempted to sin.

Therefore He COULD NOT be God, who cannot sin, and who cannot be tempted with evil.

He refused to do so - and so is correctly described as having conquered sin. His sacrifice is therefore deeply meaningful and of the utmost importance to us who accept the fact that 'He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin'.

We have a Lord who defeated what we cannot defeat ourselves.

IF JESUS WAS GOD, THEN HE COULD NOT SIN, AND THE WHOLE 'CONQUEST OF SIN' IDEA HAS BECOME A FARCE.

There was nothing to conquer.

I seriously urge you to reconsider your position because of those facts.

 

[Asyncritus]

I have never heard one argued into belief of the trinity. I speak from first hand knowledge as no man convinced me that god was a triune being. He simply said he was and I believed it.

It is impossible to use logical argument to defend the illogical. It's as simple as that, Jason.

If you accept it by faith, then that's your decision, and you're welcome to it.

 

[jasoncran]

It is impossible to use logical argument to defend the illogical. It's as simple as that, Jason.

If you accept it by faith, then that's your decision, and you're welcome to it.

logic? belief in god isn't logical. a being who was before time and will be after, takes faith. I was raised anti-trinitiarian.

now then, you have said.jesus isn't god, and yet the jews today never will say man is a son of god. jesus claimed that. in the bible a man who was a son of had the nature of the father who begat him.

 

[Asyncritus]

logic? belief in god isn't logical. a being who was before time and will be after, takes faith. I was raised anti-trinitiarian.

now then, you have said.jesus isn't god, and yet the jews today never will say man is a son of god. jesus claimed that. in the bible a man who was a son of had the nature of the father who begat him.

Belief in God is not logical????? It is the most logical thing in the world!

The Jews are completely wrong to say so. I am not a Jew, and would probably have been murdered in the first century for my belief.

Where did Jesus say that a son had the nature of the father who begat him?

Am I right in thinking that you were once a Jew? Forgive me if I'm wrong there, but some of the things you've said sound as if that's true.

If it is, then surely you know that to the Jews, no son was ever equal to his Father?

That's exactly what Jesus meant when He asked the Jews: If David was Messiah's father, then how can he call Messiah Lord?

The answer, of course, which they didn't dare give, is that Jesus, being the Son of God, was greater than David by miles!

 

[jasoncran]

Belief in God is not logical????? It is the most logical thing in the world!

The Jews are completely wrong to say so. I am not a Jew, and would probably have been murdered in the first century for my belief.

Where did Jesus say that a son had the nature of the father who begat him?

they were very right the torah did say that was blaspheme as one who said he was a son of god, claimed diety.
so its by reason we come to god? its the reverse. we can see god by faith then say its reasonable to believe in him but it doesn't make sense? god's nature is contrary to ours. we don't act like him or do things for him by our thoughts or by nature.its not natural for us to be that way.
jesus knew that and said just that. its implied because if man was a son of god, then he was a god!

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand

why would the jews say that about him , if jesus didn't say he was the son of god? jesus never refuted that he claimed it!

Verse 33

But for blasphemy - I have elsewhere shown that the original word, βλασφημειν , when applied to men, signifies to speak injuriously of their persons, character, connections, etc.; but when applied to God it signifies to speak impiously, i.e. contrary to his nature, perfections, the wisdom of his providence, or goodness of his works.

Thou, being a man - That is, only a man - makest thyself God. When Christ said before, John 10:30, I and the Father are one, had the Jews understood him (as many called Christians profess to do) as only saying he had a unity of sentiments with the Father, they would not have attempted to treat him for this as a blasphemer; because in this sense Abraham, Isaac, Moses, David, and all the prophets, were one with God. But what irritated them so much was that they understood him as speaking of a unity of nature. Therefore they say here, thou makest thyself God; which word they understood, not in a figurative, metaphorical, or improper sense, but in the most literal meaning of the term.

from adam's Clarke commentary. actually what you say is exactly what jews today say. jesus was a just a man. they add this caveat, he was a man who claimed to the messiah and also was the claiming to be a diety, the moshiac cant be the YHWH.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Where did Jesus say that a son had the nature of the father who begat him?

John Chapter 10, starting in verse 28.
Verse 30, "I and the Father are one".
That is certainly saying that Jesus has the nature of his father.

 

[jasoncran]

Where did Jesus say that a son had the nature of the father who begat him?

John Chapter 10, starting in verse 28.
Verse 30, "I and the Father are one".
That is certainly saying that Jesus has the nature of his father.

john 3:16 for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..

Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, Jacob begat Judah..

who else would a jew not see that as jesus being the son of God?

 

[Asyncritus]

Where did Jesus say that a son had the nature of the father who begat him?

John Chapter 10, starting in verse 28.
Verse 30, "I and the Father are one".
That is certainly saying that Jesus has the nature of his father.

Is it?

Then how do you understand:

Jn17.21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

But you aren't answering the serious questions I have raised above.

If Jesus was God, then He couldn't sin, or even be tempted.

But He WAS TEMPTED.

Therefore He could not be God. And He NEVER claimed to be God.

I really don't see how that point can be refuted, but maybe you can.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

He was tempted in the flesh.
He experienced everything.
But he never sinned.
And only God cannot sin.

 

[jasoncran]

adam was fully man and did sin.

ok, who was jesus father? joseph?

so god created jesus and yet jesus said abrham saw jesus and was glad and he also said before Abraham was , I was. so how could that be if jesus was a created man?

 

[Asyncritus]

He was tempted in the flesh.
He experienced everything.
But he never sinned.
And only God cannot sin.

God cannot sin.
Jesus could.
God cannot be tempted with evil.
Jesus was tempted with evil - but didn't do any.

How can He be God then?

 

[Asyncritus]

adam was fully man and did sin.

ok, who was jesus father? joseph?

so god created jesus and yet jesus said abrham saw jesus and was glad and he also said before Abraham was , I was. so how could that be if jesus was a created man?

Read the passage again Jason.

 

[Asyncritus]

john 3:16 for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..

Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, Jacob begat Judah..

who else would a jew not see that as jesus being the son of God?

I don't understand this question.

 

[jasoncran]

Read the passage again Jason.

s

I don't understand this question.

whom made jesus? god or joseph by having sex with mary?

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

so a mere man lived before Abraham?

 

[Free]

Isaiah 43:11;
"I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior", and again in verse 15, "I am the Lord, your Holy One, Israel's creator, Your King".
Jesus is Savior, Creator, and King.
How can one deny Him being God?

Thank you for bringing this up. This is one of the overarching themes of the OT to which all the pieces must fit.

Hos 13:4 But I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. (ESV)

Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel" (which means, God with us). (ESV)

 

[Asyncritus]

2Ki 13:5 (And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Ac 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

1Sa 23:5 So David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their cattle, and smote them with a great slaughter. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah.

Ne 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

So 'Saviour' is not a title exclusive to God.

He sent 'saviours' to Israel.

He sent Jesus to save the world.

And so on.

No help there, guys.

 

[Asyncritus]

Immanuel does mean 'God with us' - but that does not mean that Jesus was God.

Try these, for example:

Daniel means God is Judge.

Elijah means Jehovah is God.

Isaiah means Jehovah has saved.

Want any more?

 

[gr8grace3]

God cannot sin.
Jesus could.
God cannot be tempted with evil.
Jesus was tempted with evil - but didn't do any.

How can He be God then?

How can He be God? The Hypostatic union. True humanity and true deity in the person of the incarnate Christ.

If one truly is a Christian, the deity of Our Lord is paramount in our studies and Growth.

Christ had to be 100% human to provide a sufficient and perfect sacrifice for the human race. Jesus Christ laid aside His deity And acted in His humanity 100% of the time when it came to the sacrifice of sins for the human race. One has to be very careful and filled with the Holy Spirit to see when Jesus(humanity) was speaking in His Humanity or Christ(deity) was speaking in His deity.

100% humanity and 100% deity in one. The two natures of Christ maintain their complete identity though being joined in personal union forever. The attributes of His human and divine nature belong to their corresponding natures though the attributes of either nature belong to the one person of Christ. Each nature has its own attributes that adhere to that nature.

 

[Randy]

"My" theology, which is trinitarian theology, most certainly holds to one God. To say otherwise is to not understand what the doctrine of the Trinity is about. As for the rest, you continue to ignore the passages and arguments presented, preferring instead to pit Scripture against Scripture, which simply is not the way to go about gaining a proper biblical understanding of a matter. You did not even attempt to address the points I made or the passages presented but instead posted passages which are in full agreement with the doctrine of the Trinity.

No it doesn't and I have addressed scripture.
Lets try again

Jesus called the Father the One true God. If you believe Jesus is not the Firstborn of all creation (a Son) and always was and always was God then how do you hold to One God as Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit".

If Jesus has not always been the Son and always was and always was God how then did He become the Son?

What I hope we agree on:
The fullness of the deity dwells IN the Son. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge all the fullness of God (abilities) . Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. (All that the Father is) You believe that because you believe Jesus always was and always was God. I believe that because the Father was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in His Firstborn. (At some point before Genesis) The creation as defined in the NT. So the Father is in the Son and they are One in that manner.

I have read everything in regard to Jesus (including Jesus's own statements) and they all add up to one conclusion.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Randy

 

[Asyncritus]

How can He be God? The Hypostatic union. True humanity and true deity in the person of the incarnate Christ.

If one truly is a Christian, the deity of Our Lord is paramount in our studies and Growth.

That is incorrect. There is no such statement in scripture: but perhaps you'd like to correct me.

What we do have are statements such as:

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Christ had to be 100% human to provide a sufficient and perfect sacrifice for the human race. Jesus Christ laid aside His deity And acted in His humanity 100% of the time when it came to the sacrifice of sins for the human race. One has to be very careful and filled with the Holy Spirit to see when Jesus(humanity) was speaking in His Humanity or Christ(deity) was speaking in His deity.

Can't you see that this is absolutely self-contradictory? How can that which is divine become the absolute opposite of divine i.e. human?

How can that which is incapable of sin become capable of sinning?

How can that which is incapable of being tempted become temptable?

100% humanity and 100% deity in one. The two natures of Christ maintain their complete identity though being joined in personal union forever.

Nice sounding theological nonsense. See above for the reasons for saying so.

The attributes of His human and divine nature belong to their corresponding natures though the attributes of either nature belong to the one person of Christ. Each nature has its own attributes that adhere to that nature.

More theological nonsense. When will you guys wake up to the fact that the impossible will forever remain impossible, most notably in this case?

God cannot sin. That is an impossibility.

God cannot be tempted with evil. That is an impossibility.

Jesus could do both : be tempted, and sin. Therefore, He could not be God.

What you don't seem to realise is that if Jesus was God, and could sin, then God the Father could sin. Which is an absolutely horrifying thought, but is a direct consequence of the doctrine of the trinity.

I really don't envy your position on this.