Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[reba]

With Grace being gone is there any salvation for Israel? if so how/what?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

With Grace being gone is there any salvation for Israel? if so how/what?

Whatever goes on between God and Israel is between them, I'll be gone.

 

[reba]

not at all surprised at the reply ...

 

[for_his_glory]

Numbers, numbers, numbers, everyone has numbers.
I could pull up a dozen sites that would give different numbers, all claiming to be right.
I have numbers too.
Mine say that the final 7 years of tribulation establishes the nation of Israel under the Messiah, and the church (the age of grace) is already gone.

Can you give me scripture that says the Church is gone before Rev 4? The numbers for the 70 weeks are not mine, but that of accumulated scripture in dates of history throughout the whole of the Bible. I do not use websites for my information except for actual dates in history as the rest I learn from scripture only. I've been studying this for 17 years so far and use to believe in a pretrib rapture, but with further study I do not find this theory in scripture. I would love to post the whole of my findings, but it's to long to post here, but if you go to my website and click on Second Coming of Christ you can read the whole article I wrote.

 

[Deborah13]

What is that promise to the Jews that needs to be fulfilled?
Where do you see Rev as only being Jewish symbolism since after Christ ascended to sit at the right hand of God the word comes to both Jew and gentile as being the same word as Gods word never changes and given to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles.

Daniel 9:24-27 establishes the timing of the first and second advents of Christ referred to as 70 weeks of years. The starting point of the 70 weeks of years was with the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, (Daniel 9:25). Gabriel gave Daniel this prophecy during the time of Israel's exile in Babylon right before the first remnant of Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem around 536 B.C. under Zerubbabel. Cyrus, King of Persia, issued a decree to Zerubbabel to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem around 538 B.C., (2 Chronicles 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-3; and Ezra 6:1-5). Jerusalem was in ruins at this time, having been destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar 70 years earlier in 586 B.C. The captivity had begun in 605 B.C., before the destruction of Jerusalem, when Nebuchadnezzar took Daniel and others to Babylon as hostages, Daniel 1:1-4.

The 490 years will be divided into three periods as follows: seven weeks (49 years) plus sixty-two weeks (434 years) plus one week (7 years). At the end of the first two periods (69 weeks or 483 years), the Messiah will be cut off, reference to the crucifixion, and that both Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed. The prophecy concludes by focusing on the last week of years. It says that following the death of the Messiah and the destruction of Jerusalem, "the prince who is to come" will make a covenant with the Jewish people that will enable them to reinstitute their sacrificial system. This prince will come from the same people who destroyed the Temple (the Romans). 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 reveals the prince who is to come is that of the man of lawlessness, son of perdition.

Daniels first half of the 70 weeks:
First Advent of Messiah: From rebuilding the Temple to Messiah come
Daniels 69 weeks are 483 Solar years (Daniel 9:25),
7 weeks of years was 49 years rebuilding Jerusalem around 457B.C. (Ezra 7:11-26; 9:9)
62 weeks of years was the period of time leading up to Messiah the Prince in the beginning of his ministry in 27A.D. up to the crucifixion in 31A.D., (Daniel 9:26)

From the cross to the second advent of Messiah was a prophetic gap being the present Church age (Gentiles) which was a mystery not revealed to Daniel, Ephesians 3:4-10

Daniel's second half of the 70th week
The second advent of Messiah: From the time of Christ ministry to the cross
7 Lunar years or of great tribulations as described in (Daniel 7:13,14; 9:26,27; 12:1; Matthew Chapter 24). A covenant between Israel and the one who is to come (son of perdition)

Quote from your post.
"At the end of the first two periods (69 weeks or 483 years), the Messiah will be cut off, reference to the crucifixion, and that both Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed."

I'd just like to point out that the scripture does not say "at the end of the 69 weeks" but does say "after", H309. This is not the same as at the "end of" unless one were to say "after the end of the."
So this could mean anytime 'after' the 69 weeks were completed and not included in the 69 weeks.
ie,
Deborah took a two week vacation. After the two weeks she returned to work. If the two week vacation ended on a Friday, I would not return to work the very next day but would return on the following Monday after the weekend, a few days into the following week.

Does that make sense? The Messiah was cut off 'after' the 69 weeks, not during the 69 weeks. So could we say that He was literally crucified in week 70?

 

[Malachi]

I believe I can prove pre-trib rapture is false using simple techniques and clear revelation that scripture is giving us.

One has to wonder why some Christians are so anxious to prove that the pre-trib Rapture is false, and so anxious to go through the Great Tribulation. Are some masochistic, or what?

Could it be that Satan wants believers to (1) squabble over Scripture, (2) be confused about God's plan for the Church, for Israel, for this earth, and for the universe, and (3) to become anxious about these matters rather than rejoice in the Lord because "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9)?

As a matter of fact, the Rapture of the Church must occur before the Tribulation period because the Man of Sin (the Antichrist possessed by Satan) cannot take control until and unless the Church and the Holy Spirit have been removed from this earth, and the restraint on evil has been temporarily suspended.

Today we live in the Day of Grace. At that time they will live in the day of "strong delusion" (2 Thess 2:11). As long as the Gospel is going forth, God will not send "strong delusion" because His will is that all should be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

 

[for_his_glory]

Quote from your post.
"At the end of the first two periods (69 weeks or 483 years), the Messiah will be cut off, reference to the crucifixion, and that both Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed."

I'd just like to point out that the scripture does not say "at the end of the 69 weeks" but does say "after", H309. This is not the same as at the "end of" unless one were to say "after the end of the."
So this could mean anytime 'after' the 69 weeks were completed and not included in the 69 weeks.
ie,
Deborah took a two week vacation. After the two weeks she returned to work. If the two week vacation ended on a Friday, I would not return to work the very next day but would return on the following Monday after the weekend, a few days into the following week.

Does that make sense? The Messiah was cut off 'after' the 69 weeks, not during the 69 weeks. So could we say that He was literally crucified in week 70?

What is H309?

The 490 years will be divided into three periods as follows: seven weeks (49 years) plus sixty-two weeks (434 years) plus one week (7 years). I believe these are prophetic days as in 2Peter 2:8. At the end of the first two periods (69 weeks or 483 years), the Messiah will be cut off, reference to the crucifixion, and that both Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed as the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:50. The prophecy concludes by focusing on the last week of years. It says that following the death of the Messiah the people (Disciples) of the prince (Messiah) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (time of the Gentiles) as the flood means that the Gospel of Christ will be taught to Jew and Gentile all over the world and unto the end of the war (flesh and Spirit) desolations (sin) are determined. And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant (new covenant of grace) by making an end to all abominations that caused desolation or in other words make an end to all who would not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

One has to wonder why some Christians are so anxious to prove that the pre-trib Rapture is false, and so anxious to go through the Great Tribulation. Are some masochistic, or what?

Could it be that Satan wants believers to (1) squabble over Scripture, (2) be confused about God's plan for the Church, for Israel, for this earth, and for the universe, and (3) to become anxious about these matters rather than rejoice in the Lord because "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9)?

As a matter of fact, the Rapture of the Church must occur before the Tribulation period because the Man of Sin (the Antichrist possessed by Satan) cannot take control until and unless the Church and the Holy Spirit have been removed from this earth, and the restraint on evil has been temporarily suspended.

Today we live in the Day of Grace. At that time they will live in the day of "strong delusion" (2 Thess 2:11). As long as the Gospel is going forth, God will not send "strong delusion" because His will is that all should be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

Good points Malachi, this cannot be refuted.

 

[for_his_glory]

One has to wonder why some Christians are so anxious to prove that the pre-trib Rapture is false, and so anxious to go through the Great Tribulation. Are some masochistic, or what?

Could it be that Satan wants believers to (1) squabble over Scripture, (2) be confused about God's plan for the Church, for Israel, for this earth, and for the universe, and (3) to become anxious about these matters rather than rejoice in the Lord because "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9)?

As a matter of fact, the Rapture of the Church must occur before the Tribulation period because the Man of Sin (the Antichrist possessed by Satan) cannot take control until and unless the Church and the Holy Spirit have been removed from this earth, and the restraint on evil has been temporarily suspended.

Today we live in the Day of Grace. At that time they will live in the day of "strong delusion" (2 Thess 2:11). As long as the Gospel is going forth, God will not send "strong delusion" because His will is that all should be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

I let scripture speak for itself as giving a warning in such issues as what is taught by others that follow a bandwagon teaching, that even I believed in at one time, as many do not concern themselves thinking we are out of here before some Great Tribulation, but when tribulation comes upon them there will be many who will curse God and call Him a liar because they believed a false rapture theory.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Deborah13]

What is H309?

The 490 years will be divided into three periods as follows: seven weeks (49 years) plus sixty-two weeks (434 years) plus one week (7 years). I believe these are prophetic days as in 2Peter 2:8. At the end of the first two periods (69 weeks or 483 years), the Messiah will be cut off, reference to the crucifixion, and that both Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed as the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:50. The prophecy concludes by focusing on the last week of years. It says that following the death of the Messiah the people (Disciples) of the prince (Messiah) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (time of the Gentiles) as the flood means that the Gospel of Christ will be taught to Jew and Gentile all over the world and unto the end of the war (flesh and Spirit) desolations (sin) are determined. And he (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant (new covenant of grace) by making an end to all abominations that caused desolation or in other words make an end to all who would not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

This is what I understand.....
H309 - Strong's definition of the Hebrew word used that is translated in KJV as 'after' the 69 wks. Not 'at the end of.'
In this case the Hebrew word is used as a conjunction, 'and after', which means 'after that'. So after the 69 wks.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H310&t=KJV
See the Hebrew script and transliteration...
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

 

[for_his_glory]

This is what I understand.....
H309 - Strong's definition of the Hebrew word used that is translated in KJV as 'after' the 69 wks. Not 'at the end of.'
In this case the Hebrew word is used as a conjunction, 'and after', which means 'after that'. So after the 69 wks.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H310&t=KJV
See the Hebrew script and transliteration...
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

As soon as the 69th week was finished Messiah was cut off. I don't see what you are talking about in this. Messiah was cut off (crucified) as soon as the 69th week was completed.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

As soon as the 69th week was finished Messiah was cut off. I don't see what you are talking about in this. Messiah was cut off (crucified) as soon as the 69th week was completed.

So why are you against the rapture?

 

[Willie T]

This has been interesting. But the two camps (pre and post) had better be careful..... All they might end up "proving" is that if pre is false... and post is false... then the "Rapture" may just end up also being false, too.

 

[for_his_glory]

So why are you against the rapture?

Why would I or anyone who is in Christ be against being caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. I'm against the false pretrib, bandwagon, money making teaching of it that I use to believe in as I was taught, but never found any supporting scripture for it. I asked you to show me scripture where we are taken out before Rev chapter 4, but you haven't given me any as of yet, but I have given many that says we are still here until the seventh trumpet call that follows with the harvest judgement. Then after the harvest judgement will Jesus with His army come down to set His feet on the Mt. of Olives to make an end of all abominations (sin) and God renews the heaven and earth in preperation for the New Jerusalem to be ushered down and then we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This has been interesting. But the two camps (pre and post) had better be careful..... All they might end up "proving" is that if pre is false... and post is false... then the "Rapture" may just end up also being false, too.

And you might be false too.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why would I or anyone who is in Christ be against being caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. I'm against the false pretrib, bandwagon, money making teaching of it that I use to believe in as I was taught, but never found any supporting scripture for it. I asked you to show me scripture where we are taken out before Rev chapter 4, but you haven't given me any as of yet, but I have given many that says we are still here until the seventh trumpet call that follows with the harvest judgement. Then after the harvest judgement will Jesus with His army come down to set His feet on the Mt. of Olives to make an end of all abominations (sin) and God renews the heaven and earth in preperation for the New Jerusalem to be ushered down and then we will be with the Lord forever.

It's all very simple.
Just wait until the tribulation begins, and then start counting the days.
If you are mid-trib, you will know what day the rapture is.
If you are post-trib, you will know what day the rapture is.
But pre-trib?
1 Thessalonians 5:2;
"...for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night".

 

[Willie T]

So why are you against the rapture?

That's a good question.
What is going to be different about the way you live your life if there is such a thing as a "Rapture?"

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was just thinking (I do that sometimes).
What does God's Word tell us about what his church will be doing during the great tribulation?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That's a good question.
What is going to be different about the way you live your life if there is such a thing as a "Rapture?"

That's a good question.
For me, nothing will be different.
I'm waiting.

 

[Willie T]

That's a good question.
For me, nothing will be different.
I'm waiting.

I'm not. I'm going forward with what Jesus instructed us to do.