Proving pre-trib rapture is false, along with a question.

[for_his_glory]

It's all very simple.
Just wait until the tribulation begins, and then start counting the days.
If you are mid-trib, you will know what day the rapture is.
If you are post-trib, you will know what day the rapture is.
But pre-trib?
1 Thessalonians 5:2;
"...for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night".

So now you are setting dates? The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night to those who have not prepared themselves to be the Bride of Christ He returns for. God gives us signs to watch for, but not the very time of His return as Jesus desn't even know until God sends Him.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[for_his_glory]

So everyone wants to gain up on Rollo.
Okay, I'll just write it all down in my Hush-Hush magazine.
The, the, the, the, the, the

Not gaining up on you, just trying to explain with scripture why I believe in the way I do. That be mean to gain up on anyone as this is a polite discussion amongst Gods children and what would we do without our Rollo in whom makes me dig even deeper into the word. You need a

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

They were continuing on with His work. That's why, today, 2000 years later, we have the Christianity they built upon during the tribulations they faced.

That's preterism.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

where does God tell the church there is "the great tribulation'?

Christian in the middle east, China, the Sudan, are under great tribulation now and many other places...

That's preterism.

 

[Malachi]

where does God tell the church there is "the great tribulation'?

Christian in the middle east, China, the Sudan, are under great tribulation now and many other places...

Reba,

It is called the Great Tribulation (Gk thlipsis megale which is literally "The Tribulation, The Great One"; in Mark thlipsis is translated as "affliction") because the Lord said it would be something which has never occurred before and will never occur again. Because it is unique (like the Flood of Noah's time) it is called "The Great Tribulation" (Mt 24:21; Mk 13:19; Lk 21:25,26).

The present tribulations (as mentioned above) are relatively great, but that specific period of tribulation will be horrendous beyond description. We seem to keep forgetting that that is the time when God pours out His great wrath against sin and evil in this world (Rev 6:12-17). This is "the great day of His wrath" (v. 17).

But for believers, Christ took God's wrath upon Himself at Calvary, and therefore "God hath NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9).

 

[for_his_glory]

So you all can just go out there and tell everyone that there is no pre-trib rapture, and then tell them something that will edify them.
What will it be?
Doom and gloom?
That's what you all sound like to me.

Was it doom and gloom when Paul and Silas were in prison, no, they sang praises to the Lord and that needs to be all of us no matter what the situation looks like. I could only hope I was wrong, but the word says what it says and this is a time of great faith that needs to be found in all of us just as those who are dying a martyr's death today for the sake of Christ as we might not see it here in the USA, but just as you see it in other countries it to will be on our shores as we are not exempt from it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Reba,

It is called the Great Tribulation (Gk thlipsis megale; in Mark thlipsis is translated as "affliction") because the Lord said it would be something which has never occurred before and will never occur again. Because it is unique (like the Flood of Noah's time) it is called "The Great Tribulation" (Mt 24:21; Mk 13:19; Lk 21:25,26).

The present tribulations are relatively great, but that specific period of tribulation will be horrendous beyond description.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The world has always had tribulation from the time Adam sinned unto the present and greater tribulation will be coming that no one has ever experienced before or ever will after it is finished. Why do people add the word "The" when it is not there.

 

[Willie T]

So you all can just go out there and tell everyone that there is no pre-trib rapture, and then tell them something that will edify them.
What will it be?
Doom and gloom?
That's what you all sound like to me.

And look what you are doing...... telling them, "Jump on this bandwagon, and God will magically snatch us outta here in a couple of years........ don't worry about continuing to depend upon Him to keep our hearts positive through the hassles of worldly reality............. and sure don't worry about those other people out there. They aren't listening anyway, so God will pull us out of here, and we will get to come back riding on white horses, and slice them all to pieces with our shiny new swords.

Sounds great. And CERTAINLY cool that we get to see all those evil people screaming on their way to eternal fire....... from a safe distance in our white robes. Feeds the vindictive streak we kind of like anyway....... "We're flying away, and you guys are gonna burn."

Truly. wake up. The world is rough, and it will still be rough ten thousand years after you and I die of natural causes. Jesus asked us to go let EVERYONE know there is a pretty good way to keep your head above water through the lifetime you were given to live.... and much more beyond that.

NOT that there is an "escape clause" written into the plan, that was designed just for us people who happen to be living in this early part of this particular century.

 

[jasonc]

And look what you are doing...... telling them, "Jump on this bandwagon, and God will magically snatch us outta here in a couple of years........ don't worry about continuing to depend upon Him to keep our hearts positive through the hassles of worldly reality............. and sure don't worry about those other people out there. They aren't listening anyway, so God will pull us out of here, and we will get to come back riding on white horses, and slice them all to pieces with our shiny new swords.

Sounds great. And CERTAINLY cool that we get to see all those evil people screaming on their way to eternal fire....... from a safe distance in our white robes. Feeds the vindictive streak we kind of like anyway....... "We're flying away, and you guys are gonna burn."

Truly. wake up. The world is rough, and it will still be rough ten thousand years after you and I die of natural causes. Jesus asked us to go let EVERYONE know there is a pretty good way to keep your head above water through the lifetime you were given to live.... and much more beyond that.

NOT that there is an "escape clause" written into the plan, that was designed just for us people who happen to be living in this early part of this particular century.

or the last centuries when this was first postulated in modern form. its hope for today and for now and all that will see it.

 

[Malachi]

I asked you to show me scripture where we are taken out before Rev chapter 4, but you haven't given me any as of yet, .

Can you give me scripture that says the Church is gone before Rev 4?

for_his_glory,

Can you show us where, between Rev 4 and Rev 22, the Church is being taken out of this world? That really is the key issue.

The terms "the Church" or "church" or "churches" will not be found after Rev 3:22, and when Christ mentions "churches" once again in Rev 22:16, it is for a summation of all that is in this book of prophecy as was to be presented to the then existing churches: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches" (see Rev 1:11).

The reason the Church or churches have no place in Revelation after chapter 3 is because the Church is already in Heaven. Those are the saints which then return with Christ in Rev 19:14 as "armies" after they become "the wife of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7-9).

 

[for_his_glory]

Not getting that..... What do you mean, "taken as a thief in the night"? There nothing in the Bible about anything like that.

1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

We need to be prepared as the Bride of Christ just like the parable of the women who had no oil for their lamps in Matthew 25:1-13.

 

[Malachi]

Why do people add the word "The" when it is not there.

Did you actually read Post #225? The Greek has "The Tribulation, The Great One" (thlipsis megale). Had the KJV translators done a strict literal translation, you would be reading exactly that. Quibbling over "The" does not alter the fact that this is an entirely unique and unimaginably terrible period in human history. Hence "The Great Tribulation". No one has seen anything like it since creation.

 

[Willie T]

Yes, Jas. THAT is the main thrust of Revelation.......... "There is hope"

There was for the people the book was written to... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 400.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 800.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 1200.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 1600.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 1700.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 1800.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 1900.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 2000.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
There was for people in the year 2013.... yet, they weren't "Raptured."
And there is for us today.... but there is no "Rapture" to watch for.
And there will be for the people living, perhaps, centuries from now... but they won't be "Raptured" either.

The only time (whenever that might come) that there is going to be any mass skyward exodus is the day Jesus returns..... NOT some secret stealing away of part of the world, "leaving behind" a bunch of confused people, wondering what happened, as some people have envisioned.

 

[jasonc]

Did you actually read Post #225? The Greek has "The Tribulation, The Great One" (thlipsis megale). Had the KJV translators done a strict literal translation, you would be reading exactly that. Quibbling over "The" does not alter the fact that this is an entirely unique and unimaginably terrible period in human history. Hence "The Great Tribulation". No one has seen anything like it since creation.

post the ylt for that. its the most literal and uses the same sources as does the kjv and in the same style of English.

 

[Willie T]

1Th_5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Yeah, like I said..... THAT is certainly in the Bible, but not an instance of people being taken like thieves in the night....... or whatever it was you said that seemed so confusing.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, Christianity goes nowhere if we all do not do as Jesus designed it to work... by each of us taking Him out into the world by the way we live in that world.

isn't that what I said as being a faithful servant

 

[Willie T]

isn't that what I said as being a faithful servant

I took your post to indicate that our "job" was to simply "stand fast" and believe (not real sure, specifically, how people do that), and God would take care of getting Himself some converts.

Sorry, conversation really doesn't register too well for me when people just use standard Christian phraseology without a bit of explaining as to what (for instance) being a "faithful servant" means in the context of the post.

 

[Karl]

And may I add to what Malachi has written,

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1

Jesus said He was the door,John 10:7, Jesus, the man, ascended up to Heaven in His resurrected body, where He is waiting for His Bride to join Him, John in this verse represents the Church in/with their resurrected bodies, notice John heard a voice (Jesus) telling him to come up to heaven Rev 4:2, ...if the Church/Bride is in Heaven with her Bridegroom then it can no longer be on earth, which is the lesson we learn from Jesus giving up His Divine characteristic of omnipresence to take on the form of a human, He can no longer be in two or more places at the same time, ...so neither can His church, being comprised of humans in resurrected bodies like His own, be two places at the same time either.

 

[jasonc]

And may I add to what Malachi has written,

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1

Jesus said He was the door,John 10:7, Jesus, the man, ascended up to Heaven in His resurrected body, where He is waiting for His Bride to join Him, John in this verse represents the Church in/with their resurrected bodies, notice John heard a voice (Jesus) telling him to come up to heaven Rev 4:2, ...if the Church/Bride is in Heaven with her Bridegroom then it can no longer be on earth, which is the lesson we learn from Jesus giving up His Divine characteristic of omnipresence to take on the form of a human, He can no longer be in two or more places at the same time, ...so neither can His church, being comprised of humans in resurrected bodies like His own, be two places at the same time either.

uhm then if john was represented as the church where does it say that plainly? john also was told to write to those others, and he also had to know and understand that vision as best as he could. btw the church didn't teach scholfiedism until well uncle cy came along.

 

[gr8grace3]

or the last centuries when this was first postulated in modern form. its hope for today and for now and all that will see it.

Ephraem, the Syrian (306-373 AD)http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

This is not proof, but it sure defeats the Idea that the pre-trib rapture is new.